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Carpathia and Moldova
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Criticisms of Feminism

Postby Carpathia and Moldova » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:57 pm

Hold your horses. I know there are a lot of feminists here, but please, read what I have to say before going off and condemning me. I am not a misogynist and I do not advocate the discrimination of women (or any kind of discrimination at all). I completely agree with you that women are being discriminated against and I fully support the idea of equal rights and status for all genders, races, ethnicities and sexual orientations. My issue is that you're doing it wrong.

Let's think of society as a living organism and look at this issue as a social disease. When you get a disease, what do you do? Do you treat the symptoms, or the cause? Because, if you don't eliminate the cause, those symptoms are just going to come back and social inequality (as well as racial inequality and every other kind of inequality) is a symptom, which you pit so many resources against, without ever considering the bigger picture and what is causing the disease.

The fact is (and I recommend you take this very seriously), gender discrimination goes both ways. Yes, women are generally paid less. Yes, women are generally seen as being weaker. Yes, women are being treated with less respect. What you do not realize is that the discrimination of women is equally damaging to the male gender. How so? Because of the rigid social conventions on "gender roles" which we are all forced to abide by. While women are expected to "stay in the kitchen", men are required to be insensitive and unfaithful. In modern society, a man who displays affection, respect and loyalty to a woman, is considered a "pussy" and rejected as weak (and usually end up on the losing end). These gender conventions demand that men assert their dominance in a relationship and act the way we often do. In other words, we're just as conditioned and restricted by these conventions, as you are.

Social conventions such as gender roles, racial and ethnic status, etc, are all just another excuse for the people with a very high social status, to restrict access to their position and eliminate potential competition, thus increasing their offspring's chances of inheriting that position of power. The cause of all these issues is heredity. To prove my point, we're seeing a whole bunch of problems, like racism, slowly being eliminated, while other forms of discrimination, such as classism (discrimination against the poor), are taking their place.

I imagine that, at some point in the distant past, there was a struggle for social status and resources, in primitive human culture. At some point, that struggle was won by a group of males, for a some unknown reasons (it is possible that the opposite might have happened and females could have won, which would have resulted in a completely reversed scenario with women on top). Ever since then, that winning group has done everything in its power to not only consolidate its grip on the position which they have acquired, but to expand their power even further. Nowadays, we call these people "the 1%" and they're the ones who control the media, finances, etc, thus they're in a position to dictate which conventions should the society follow. In fact, all of these social conventions are the result of people playing by the rules of the privileged few, due to a misguided belief that thus, they are able to climb the social ladder just one step further. What you do not realize, is that the game is rigged. The people who make the rules will only seek to further their own interest and eliminate any and all potential competition, by making it impossible for people to compete in the first place. Thus, you have issues such as discrimination, which cause social frictions, malcontent, disappointment and stagnation and are invariably leading the human race towards its own destruction.

Try going through a mental exercise with me. Imagine a world without inheritance. A world without an elite which has that position of power, merely because they inherited their advantage. If power and wealth were not hereditary, we could have a world where one had to earn his or her place, through their own merit. In my opinion, the only way to solve society's issue is through making people in power have more responsibilities, while eliminating heredity in its entirety (100% inheritance tax and the abolition of aristocracy). All those taxes could then go towards making the world a place where every person has the chance to succeed in life on his/her own. Think of it this way. What would you rather leave your children? Material assets like money and social position, thus very little motivation for self-improvement? Or a world which offers your children the possibility to start in the same position as everyone else (by eliminating the concept of pole position), thus stimulating them to grow and evolve? Leveling the playing field would only increase competition, thus promoting an accelerated improvement of society and the human race as a whole.

What I propose, is that you stop looking at this issue from such a narrow angle. Its not just about women's rights, its about humanity as a whole. Why not try to point out the negative effects that discrimination against women, has on men? Instead of addressing just one of the symptoms, why not seek to promote a world in which everyone starts off with the same chances and has an equal amount of support, to succeed in life?

I'm really looking forward to reading your responses to this.

Mod edit: Generalized the title.
Further mod edit: Title change.
Last edited by Farnhamia on Mon May 25, 2015 4:40 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:00 pm

What I propose is that you learn what feminism actually is. Because your post was condescending and ignorant, given that feminists DO say that these gender roles harm men as well.

It is you that is looking at this with a narrow view.
Last edited by Katganistan on Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Imyoji
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Postby Imyoji » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:01 pm

...

Do you even know what feminism is? You don't? Then please reconsider what you said.
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:03 pm

tl;dr
the vast, vast majority of feminists realize that sexism affects men. So, you just don't understand what feminism is.
But thanks for the condescending and outright uninformed post.
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Postby Warpspace » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:07 pm

OP, the people you're rambling on about are Feminist Extremists, AKA "Femnazis". Actual Feminists are Susan B. Anthony, not Anita Sarkeesian.
Last edited by Warpspace on Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Romalae » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:07 pm

Seems like a big mischaracterization of feminism to me. It's like you're creating a false strawman and arguing against it.
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Postby Imyoji » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:08 pm

Warpspace wrote:OP, the people you're rambling on about are Feminist Extremists, AKA "Femnazis". Actual Feminists are Susan B. Anthony, not Anita Sarkeesian.

Oh god, I ain't touching this with a long pointy stick. I'll just call 'no true Scotsman' fallacy and call it a day.
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Warpspace
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Postby Warpspace » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:11 pm

Imyoji wrote:
Warpspace wrote:OP, the people you're rambling on about are Feminist Extremists, AKA "Femnazis". Actual Feminists are Susan B. Anthony, not Anita Sarkeesian.

Oh god, I ain't touching this with a long pointy stick. I'll just call 'no true Scotsman' fallacy and call it a day.

There's a difference between the normal (sometimes silent ) majority and the extremist nutjobs. See the difference between the average Muslim and the Taliban, the average Christian and the Teutonic Knights, the average American Republican and the Tea Party, etc.

Or do you seriously suggest that asinine extremists represent the defining majority of any tribal group?
If we affirm one moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event—and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:11 pm

Warpspace wrote:OP, the people you're rambling on about are Feminist Extremists, AKA "Femnazis". Actual Feminists are Susan B. Anthony, not Anita Sarkeesian.

The problem is society hears a lot more from the Sarkeesian type of extremist than the Susan B. Anthony types.
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Postby Oneracon » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:11 pm

This was an interesting read, but I think it stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of what the goals of feminism are.

The end goal of feminism is to elevate the role of women in society (who do have a worse position) by dismantling patriarchal aspects in our society... something that benefits everyone.
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Postby Warpspace » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:12 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Warpspace wrote:OP, the people you're rambling on about are Feminist Extremists, AKA "Femnazis". Actual Feminists are Susan B. Anthony, not Anita Sarkeesian.

The problem is society hears a lot more from the Sarkeesian type of extremist than the Susan B. Anthony types.


Hence the silent majority part.

Unfortunately the most well known people of any club, group, fandom, ideology, religion, etc are the idiots with loudspeakers.
If we affirm one moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event—and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed.
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Postby Planita » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:13 pm

Watches flame wars starting...

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Postby The Serbian Empire » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:14 pm

Warpspace wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:The problem is society hears a lot more from the Sarkeesian type of extremist than the Susan B. Anthony types.


Hence the silent majority part.

Unfortunately the most well known people of any club, group, fandom, ideology, religion, etc are the idiots with loudspeakers.

Yep, the silent majority if the opposed Sarkeesian would eventually be kicked out by the noisy radicals for not being feminist enough.
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Postby The Confederacy of Nationalism » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:14 pm

Katganistan wrote:What I propose is that you learn what feminism actually is. Because your post was condescending and ignorant, given that feminists DO say that these gender roles harm men as well.

It is you that is looking at this with a narrow view.

Gender roles are necessary while sexual reproduction still exists, matey.
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Postby Imyoji » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:14 pm

Warpspace wrote:
Imyoji wrote:Oh god, I ain't touching this with a long pointy stick. I'll just call 'no true Scotsman' fallacy and call it a day.

There's a difference between the normal (sometimes silent ) majority and the extremist nutjobs. See the difference between the average Muslim and the Taliban, the average Christian and the Teutonic Knights, the average American Republican and the Tea Party, etc.

Or do you seriously suggest that asinine extremists represent the defining majority of any tribal group?

I'm more of take whatever points that are good, be it from an extreme or mainstream, and see what sticks. All ideas are valid, but the most practical are the ones generally applied in the end, so in a way, the main stream has just as low a chance of being accepted in the end all be all.
The Serbian Empire wrote:
Warpspace wrote:OP, the people you're rambling on about are Feminist Extremists, AKA "Femnazis". Actual Feminists are Susan B. Anthony, not Anita Sarkeesian.

The problem is society hears a lot more from the Sarkeesian type of extremist than the Susan B. Anthony types.

Both points are valid, just which one would be more practical and most supported with evidence is the one that gets implemented.
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Postby The Confederacy of Nationalism » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:14 pm

Planita wrote:Watches flame wars starting...

abandon thread
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:15 pm

Planita wrote:Watches flame wars starting...

It's only a matter of time... but I know I won't flame anyone.
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Postby Basseemia » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:16 pm

Sniff...

I smell a whiny blog post.
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Postby Constantinopolis » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:16 pm

Carpathia and Moldova wrote:What you do not realize is that the discrimination of women is equally damaging to the male gender.

Actually, vast numbers of feminists (probably the majority of us) argue precisely that.
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Postby Katganistan » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:17 pm

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:
Katganistan wrote:What I propose is that you learn what feminism actually is. Because your post was condescending and ignorant, given that feminists DO say that these gender roles harm men as well.

It is you that is looking at this with a narrow view.

Gender roles are necessary while sexual reproduction still exists, matey.



Really?
How does sexual reproduction tie into one's paycheck, do tell.
Or into one's ability to do construction work? Teach? Work in finance?

I eagerly await your explanation.

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Postby Warpspace » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:18 pm

Imyoji wrote:
Warpspace wrote:There's a difference between the normal (sometimes silent ) majority and the extremist nutjobs. See the difference between the average Muslim and the Taliban, the average Christian and the Teutonic Knights, the average American Republican and the Tea Party, etc.

Or do you seriously suggest that asinine extremists represent the defining majority of any tribal group?

I'm more of take whatever points that are good, be it from an extreme or mainstream, and see what sticks. All ideas are valid, but the most practical are the ones generally applied in the end, so in a way, the main stream has just as low a chance of being accepted in the end all be all.
The Serbian Empire wrote:The problem is society hears a lot more from the Sarkeesian type of extremist than the Susan B. Anthony types.

Both points are valid, just which one would be more practical and most supported with evidence is the one that gets implemented.


What

Then you should be agreeing with me, because the peaceful normal majority are the practical ones, not the extremists screaming for the heads to roll and torching shit.
If we affirm one moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event—and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:19 pm

Imyoji wrote:
Warpspace wrote:There's a difference between the normal (sometimes silent ) majority and the extremist nutjobs. See the difference between the average Muslim and the Taliban, the average Christian and the Teutonic Knights, the average American Republican and the Tea Party, etc.

Or do you seriously suggest that asinine extremists represent the defining majority of any tribal group?

I'm more of take whatever points that are good, be it from an extreme or mainstream, and see what sticks. All ideas are valid, but the most practical are the ones generally applied in the end, so in a way, the main stream has just as low a chance of being accepted in the end all be all.
The Serbian Empire wrote:The problem is society hears a lot more from the Sarkeesian type of extremist than the Susan B. Anthony types.

Both points are valid, just which one would be more practical and most supported with evidence is the one that gets implemented.

The problem is the world tends to listen to who has the loudspeaker. Sarkeesian and her radicals have it.
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Postby Imyoji » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:20 pm

Warpspace wrote:
Imyoji wrote:I'm more of take whatever points that are good, be it from an extreme or mainstream, and see what sticks. All ideas are valid, but the most practical are the ones generally applied in the end, so in a way, the main stream has just as low a chance of being accepted in the end all be all.

Both points are valid, just which one would be more practical and most supported with evidence is the one that gets implemented.


What

Then you should be agreeing with me, because the peaceful normal majority are the practical ones, not the extremists screaming for the heads to roll and torching shit.

Implying that all extremists and radicals want heads be rolling. Again, everything is valid to a certain degree. Practicality can exist within radical thought, just a little bit more harder to find lest one likes to swim in the muck of extremism.
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Postby The Confederacy of Nationalism » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:21 pm

Katganistan wrote:
The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:Gender roles are necessary while sexual reproduction still exists, matey.



Really?
How does sexual reproduction tie into one's paycheck, do tell.
Or into one's ability to do construction work? Teach? Work in finance?

I eagerly await your explanation.

Men and women are biologically different. Laying a social construct over that to attempt to force them to be socially equal is not going to help. The only way you're ever going to eliminate gender roles is to eliminate sexual reproduction entirely and just clone men or women.
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