South Carolina school dislikes America

[Dyakovo]

The problem is that the school's parking lot is publicly accessible, but it isn't public property. It is actually private property of whoever owns the parking lot, in this case the school.

The school is publicly owned, indeed, and it is the same as any other government agency. But, for instance, the same way you wouldn't tell a government employee in UNCIS that their building and parking lot is public property and that therefore you can park in the fire lane (because they would laugh at you) so it is with the school.

If the lot is open to the public, it is treated as a public road with regard to traffic laws.

Parking in fire lanes and handicapped spaces are governed by separate laws, the police are allowed to issue citations on private property.

You're the only one talking about traffic laws...

[Dyakovo]

No, I'm saying that they can tell him to take it down or remove it from his vehicle. Seriously, what is the obsession with putting shit in my mouth tonight? Do my lips really look that pretty?

And I'm saying that the lot is open to the public, therefore state traffic laws apply.The school can't do anything about the flags if they don't violate traffic laws.

Absolute bullshit.

[The Two Jerseys]

If the lot is open to the public, it is treated as a public road with regard to traffic laws.

Parking in fire lanes and handicapped spaces are governed by separate laws, the police are allowed to issue citations on private property.

You're the only one talking about traffic laws...

Because that's what governs what can and can't be mounted on the truck.

[Geen Gelul]

This sort of nationalism is starting to frighten me.

I didn't know that equating flying a flag with nationalism is the hip thing to do.

This seems silly. Nothing else should be said.

[The Two Jerseys]

And I'm saying that the lot is open to the public, therefore state traffic laws apply.The school can't do anything about the flags if they don't violate traffic laws.

Absolute bullshit.

What are you going to tell me next, that the school has the right to ban cars with aftermarket wheels from parking in their lot?

[Dyakovo]

Absolute bullshit.

What are you going to tell me next, that the school has the right to ban cars with aftermarket wheels from parking in their lot?

In theory, yes, they do. Justifying (and thus enforcing) such a ban would be difficult at best, but that is immaterial as I'm talking about this school's rules, and their justification thereof.

[Dyakovo]

You're the only one talking about traffic laws...

Because that's what governs what can and can't be mounted on the truck.

Ah, I see the problem. You think that the school's rules are traffic laws. They aren't. They're standards as to what is acceptable on school property. Even though the parking lot falls under the umbrella of "places covered by traffic laws", this dies not change the fact that it is also school property.

[Imperial Esplanade]

That, plus the Dixie Flag isn't meant to be an 'American' flag, but rather a regional flag (pride to call the ex-confederate southern states home - celebrating the unique southern lifestyle).

It's technically about as unpatriotic of a flag as just about every single flag of a foreign nation or any other US region, but whether if it's 'offensive' or not is strictly in the eyes of the beholder.

It's the flag of people who actively waged war on the United States, and who still believe in the cause as some sort of noble effort. It's the equivalent of flying a swastika flag.

If we refused to raise the flag of every nation who waged war on us, that would discount some of our closest allies. Japanese and British flags would have no place in this country, just saying.

Besides, you're missing the point and are engaging in needless, unnecessary, and inflammatory rhetoric. Clearly, you aren't from the south or you haven't spent much time looking into and understanding southern heritage. What the Dixie Flag represents to Southerners is, to an extent, what the Star Spangled Banner represents to the nation. It's a symbol of national identity, or (in the case of the Dixie Flag) regional identity. Nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they supported what the Confederacy had done back in the 1860's, nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they support white supremacy and black inferiority, and nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they hate the United States of America or its' government... and if anyone does, they're in an extreme, extreme minority. No, Southerners embrace the Dixie Flag in a way that Americans as a whole embrace the American Flag, albeit at a smaller scale but for generally the same reasons. That's the point, yet clueless people who are visiting the South get needlessly offended by it and blast it over Facebook all the time, which is why we're always back in this 'ERMEHGERD!! THERT DERXIE FLHERG!!" conversation that should've been settled a long, long time ago.

[Imperial Esplanade]

That, plus the Dixie Flag isn't meant to be an 'American' flag, but rather a regional flag (pride to call the ex-confederate southern states home - celebrating the unique southern lifestyle).

It's technically about as unpatriotic of a flag as just about every single flag of a foreign nation or any other US region, but whether if it's 'offensive' or not is strictly in the eyes of the beholder.

Yes, absolutely nothing unpatriotic about flying a flag that represents traitors.
*nods*

Secessionists. They were secessionists, though for different and overall immoral reasons, but kinda like how the continentals were secessionists from the English crown in the 1770's-1780's... the confederates were secessionists from the Union in the 1860's. So, going off of your logic, the flag of the United States is a flag that represents traitors in the United Kingdom.

[Dyakovo]

Yes, absolutely nothing unpatriotic about flying a flag that represents traitors.
*nods*

Secessionists. They were secessionists, though for different and overall immoral reasons, but kinda like how the continentals were secessionists from the English crown in the 1770's-1780's... the confederates were secessionists from the Union in the 1860's. So, going off of your logic, the flag of the United States is a flag that represents traitors in the United Kingdom.

Well, yes. The American Revolution was an act of treason against the Crown... I rather thought that most people realized that.

[Salandriagado]

If it's dangerous, yes, you are. Alternatively, file a complaint through the established procedure.

It's not the school's place to decide if an automotive accessory is dangerous.

If it's on their campus, yes, it is. Judging and regulating the safety of activities on campus very definitely is their job.

How (or indeed, if) it was explained to him, why the decision was made, and what he thought they meant are three very different things.

Yes, but the three things are inextricably linked. Assuming that the school originally took down his flag in order to protect the safety of other drivers, they either chose not to make that explicit to him, he's so dense that he didn't get the message, or he's been lying about it. In my opinion it'd be unfair to sit in the camp that automatically questions his intelligence or honesty.

But you find it perfectly acceptable to automatically question the school's honesty?

Where did I say they could?

You keep thinking just because the kid was on school property that the school had the right to remove the flag from his vehicle which they don't.

No, we're saying that they have the right to tell him that he can't drive on campus with the flag there. Which is what they did.

[Gig em Aggies]

It's not the school's place to decide if an automotive accessory is dangerous.

If it's on their campus, yes, it is. Judging and regulating the safety of activities on campus very definitely is their job.

Yes, but the three things are inextricably linked. Assuming that the school originally took down his flag in order to protect the safety of other drivers, they either chose not to make that explicit to him, he's so dense that he didn't get the message, or he's been lying about it. In my opinion it'd be unfair to sit in the camp that automatically questions his intelligence or honesty.

But you find it perfectly acceptable to automatically question the school's honesty?

You keep thinking just because the kid was on school property that the school had the right to remove the flag from his vehicle which they don't.

No, we're saying that they have the right to tell him that he can't drive on campus with the flag there. Which is what they did.

It's a public lot they can't tell him what he can and can't have on his vehicle. Preventing him from coming to school just because he has an American flag on his truck is not legal. If they had a problem with the flag they should just ask him if he refuses then contact the police.

[Imperial Esplanade]

Secessionists. They were secessionists, though for different and overall immoral reasons, but kinda like how the continentals were secessionists from the English crown in the 1770's-1780's... the confederates were secessionists from the Union in the 1860's. So, going off of your logic, the flag of the United States is a flag that represents traitors in the United Kingdom.

Well, yes. The American Revolution was an act of treason against the Crown... I rather thought that most people realized that.

Yet, the American flag represents more than just that particular act of treason against the monarchy... and the same goes for the flag of Dixie in relation to the Union.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

It's the flag of people who actively waged war on the United States, and who still believe in the cause as some sort of noble effort. It's the equivalent of flying a swastika flag.

If we refused to raise the flag of every nation who waged war on us, that would discount some of our closest allies. Japanese and British flags would have no place in this country, just saying.

Besides, you're missing the point and are engaging in needless, unnecessary, and inflammatory rhetoric. Clearly, you aren't from the south or you haven't spent much time looking into and understanding southern heritage. What the Dixie Flag represents to Southerners is, to an extent, what the Star Spangled Banner represents to the nation. It's a symbol of national identity, or (in the case of the Dixie Flag) regional identity. Nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they supported what the Confederacy had done back in the 1860's, nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they support white supremacy and black inferiority, and nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they hate the United States of America or its' government... and if anyone does, they're in an extreme, extreme minority. No, Southerners embrace the Dixie Flag in a way that Americans as a whole embrace the American Flag, albeit at a smaller scale but for generally the same reasons. That's the point, yet clueless people who are visiting the South get needlessly offended by it and blast it over Facebook all the time, which is why we're always back in this 'ERMEHGERD!! THERT DERXIE FLHERG!!" conversation that should've been settled a long, long time ago.

No, I get it. Both of my parents are from the South. I spent summers in Confederate states when I was a child. I'm aware of what it represents to many Southerners. However, to begin with, despite their protestations to the contrary, they weren't a nation, but a rebellious group within another nation, so your comparison to "Other nations which have waged war on us" is irrelevant. They were a slaveholding aristocracy that was afraid that the rise of free states would mean that they would no longer be able to hold their fellow man in bondage (despite Lincoln stating no plans to eliminate the practice, even in the face of his personal distaste for it), and they turned on their own nation, killing their fellow countrymen so that they would have the "right" to continue to enslave others. It was a terrible reason for starting a war, the people who did so were lucky that they weren't hanged for treason, and it's a shameful blot upon the history of the entire American South. If you want to find a sign of regional pride, then find something that wasn't used as a symbol of people who fought and died for the right to treat others worse than cattle.

[Imperial Esplanade]

If we refused to raise the flag of every nation who waged war on us, that would discount some of our closest allies. Japanese and British flags would have no place in this country, just saying.

Besides, you're missing the point and are engaging in needless, unnecessary, and inflammatory rhetoric. Clearly, you aren't from the south or you haven't spent much time looking into and understanding southern heritage. What the Dixie Flag represents to Southerners is, to an extent, what the Star Spangled Banner represents to the nation. It's a symbol of national identity, or (in the case of the Dixie Flag) regional identity. Nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they supported what the Confederacy had done back in the 1860's, nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they support white supremacy and black inferiority, and nobody flies a Dixie Flag because they hate the United States of America or its' government... and if anyone does, they're in an extreme, extreme minority. No, Southerners embrace the Dixie Flag in a way that Americans as a whole embrace the American Flag, albeit at a smaller scale but for generally the same reasons. That's the point, yet clueless people who are visiting the South get needlessly offended by it and blast it over Facebook all the time, which is why we're always back in this 'ERMEHGERD!! THERT DERXIE FLHERG!!" conversation that should've been settled a long, long time ago.

No, I get it. Both of my parents are from the South. I spent summers in Confederate states when I was a child. I'm aware of what it represents to many Southerners. However, to begin with, despite their protestations to the contrary, they weren't a nation, but a rebellious group within another nation, so your comparison to "Other nations which have waged war on us" is irrelevant. They were a slaveholding aristocracy that was afraid that the rise of free states would mean that they would no longer be able to hold their fellow man in bondage (despite Lincoln stating no plans to eliminate the practice, even in the face of his personal distaste for it), and they turned on their own nation, killing their fellow countrymen so that they would have the "right" to continue to enslave others. It was a terrible reason for starting a war, the people who did so were lucky that they weren't hanged for treason, and it's a shameful blot upon the history of the entire American South. If you want to find a sign of regional pride, then find something that wasn't used as a symbol of people who fought and died for the right to treat others worse than cattle.

Clearly you don't 'get it,' quite actually.

The 'Civil War' is a misnomer, since it was actually a War of Southern Secession that had failed. If the South had won, they would be a sovereign state and your point would be nullified right off the bat. The entire narrative of 'state vs state' is an abstract one that really has no relevance. Look, as a Catholic I vehemently oppose slavery and I think the overwhelming majority of users here (and Americans overall) think slavery is a terrible thing, including southerners. That said, yes the Confederacy was a slave-holding aristocracy... but so was the Union that abolished slavery not too long before the war, and slavery (albeit being a major issue) wasn't the only tension arising between the north and the south, as the two had been threatening to split for a long time, and an attempt at separation probably would've been had even without the existence of the issue of slavery.

The only reason we call it a 'Civil War' is because the Union had won, thankfully, and had written the history books to guise it as a 'Civil War' as opposed to a 'Failed War of Independence" (which it actually was). Today, people brandish the Dixie Flag not because of that tainted history, but because it's to show that we are different (both historically and to this day) for better or for worse, and it's honestly something to be proud over. We have a unique history with a predominantly french historical background that was relatively isolated from the union and with a different charted path from the rest of the country (slavery, as terrible as it was, yes not withstanding - but including southern belles and other southern historical icons) and as prideful southerners are to be southerners, they're almost always even more so proud to be Americans first and foremost - myself included. They are, after all, the greatest contributors to our armed forces per capita (and I think maybe even outright).

[The Two Jerseys]

It's not the school's place to decide if an automotive accessory is dangerous.

If it's on their campus, yes, it is. Judging and regulating the safety of activities on campus very definitely is their job.

It's not a campus activity. It's a private vehicle used for commuting.

The school cannot ban a car for having aftermarket parts attached if those parts comply with state and federal laws.

[Salandriagado]

If it's on their campus, yes, it is. Judging and regulating the safety of activities on campus very definitely is their job.

It's not a campus activity. It's a private vehicle used for commuting.

The school cannot ban a car for having aftermarket parts attached if those parts comply with state and federal laws.

Doesn't matter. If the school wanted to ban skateboards in that car park, they'd be perfectly within their rights to do so. This is precisely the same thing.

[The Two Jerseys]

It's not a campus activity. It's a private vehicle used for commuting.

The school cannot ban a car for having aftermarket parts attached if those parts comply with state and federal laws.

Doesn't matter. If the school wanted to ban skateboards in that car park, they'd be perfectly within their rights to do so. This is precisely the same thing.

It's not the same thing.

When the school opened a parking lot, they gave implied permission for vehicles to park there. Skateboards are not vehicles, so this implied permission does not extend to them.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

No, I get it. Both of my parents are from the South. I spent summers in Confederate states when I was a child. I'm aware of what it represents to many Southerners. However, to begin with, despite their protestations to the contrary, they weren't a nation, but a rebellious group within another nation, so your comparison to "Other nations which have waged war on us" is irrelevant. They were a slaveholding aristocracy that was afraid that the rise of free states would mean that they would no longer be able to hold their fellow man in bondage (despite Lincoln stating no plans to eliminate the practice, even in the face of his personal distaste for it), and they turned on their own nation, killing their fellow countrymen so that they would have the "right" to continue to enslave others. It was a terrible reason for starting a war, the people who did so were lucky that they weren't hanged for treason, and it's a shameful blot upon the history of the entire American South. If you want to find a sign of regional pride, then find something that wasn't used as a symbol of people who fought and died for the right to treat others worse than cattle.

Clearly you don't 'get it,' quite actually.

The 'Civil War' is a misnomer, since it was actually a War of Southern Secession that had failed. If the South had won, they would be a sovereign state and your point would be nullified right off the bat.

And, to quote my Southern grandfather, if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass on the ground when he hops.

The entire narrative of 'state vs state' is an abstract one that really has no relevance. Look, as a Catholic I vehemently oppose slavery and I think the overwhelming majority of users here (and Americans overall) think slavery is a terrible thing, including southerners. That said, yes the Confederacy was a slave-holding aristocracy... but so was the Union that abolished slavery not too long before the war, and slavery (albeit being a major issue) wasn't the only tension arising between the north and the south, as the two had been threatening to split for a long time, and an attempt at separation probably would've been had even without the existence of the issue of slavery.

The Union didn't abolish slavery before the war. The Union had taken practically no action on slavery one way or the other, except in the guise of compromises that only delayed the inevitable. Slavery was the chief cause of the war. This has been established. If you want to start another goddamned Civil War thread, then I'll give you plenty of sources to back that basic historical fact.

The only reason we call it a 'Civil War' is because the Union had won, thankfully, and had written the history books to guise it as a 'Civil War' as opposed to a 'Failed War of Independence" (which it actually was).

It's called a Civil War because it fits the definition of a civil war.

Today, people brandish the Dixie Flag not because of that tainted history, but because it's to show that we are different (both historically and to this day) for better or for worse, and it's honestly something to be proud over.

I don't have any issue with some regional pride, though I think that it can be a bit silly. The issue is with the symbol that you chose, which was first used by people who were killing their fellow countrymen in order to maintain their right to keep slaves (Yes, what they were trying to do was to establish their independence. They wished to do so out of fear that the political makeup in the United States had shifted to an anti-slave position, and that their "peculiar institution" would be outlawed). If you want to show German pride, don't fly a swastika, and if you want to show Southern pride, don't fly a Confederate flag.

We have a unique history with a predominantly french historical background that was relatively isolated from the union and with a different charted path from the rest of the country (slavery, as terrible as it was, yes not withstanding - but including southern belles and other southern historical icons) and as prideful southerners are to be southerners, they're almost always even more so proud to be Americans first and foremost - myself included. They are, after all, the greatest contributors to our armed forces per capita (and I think maybe even outright).

If you're proud to be Americans, don't fly a flag that was originally a symbol of people who were trying to kill as many Americans as possible so that they could enslave people. It's a stupid symbol to use, and I suspect that it alienates any number of people who would otherwise either be sympathetic or not care.

[Salandriagado]

Doesn't matter. If the school wanted to ban skateboards in that car park, they'd be perfectly within their rights to do so. This is precisely the same thing.

It's not the same thing.

When the school opened a parking lot, they gave implied permission for vehicles to park there. Skateboards are not vehicles, so this implied permission does not extend to them.

And then they explicitly removed permission for certain classes of vehicles to park there.

[Lleu llaw Gyffes]

No, I get it. Both of my parents are from the South. I spent summers in Confederate states when I was a child. I'm aware of what it represents to many Southerners. However, to begin with, despite their protestations to the contrary, they weren't a nation, but a rebellious group within another nation, so your comparison to "Other nations which have waged war on us" is irrelevant. They were a slaveholding aristocracy that was afraid that the rise of free states would mean that they would no longer be able to hold their fellow man in bondage (despite Lincoln stating no plans to eliminate the practice, even in the face of his personal distaste for it), and they turned on their own nation, killing their fellow countrymen so that they would have the "right" to continue to enslave others. It was a terrible reason for starting a war, the people who did so were lucky that they weren't hanged for treason, and it's a shameful blot upon the history of the entire American South. If you want to find a sign of regional pride, then find something that wasn't used as a symbol of people who fought and died for the right to treat others worse than cattle.

Clearly you don't 'get it,' quite actually.

The 'Civil War' is a misnomer, since it was actually a War of Southern Secession that had failed. If the South had won, they would be a sovereign state and your point would be nullified right off the bat. The entire narrative of 'state vs state' is an abstract one that really has no relevance. Look, as a Catholic I vehemently oppose slavery and I think the overwhelming majority of users here (and Americans overall) think slavery is a terrible thing, including southerners. That said, yes the Confederacy was a slave-holding aristocracy... but so was the Union that abolished slavery not too long before the war, and slavery (albeit being a major issue) wasn't the only tension arising between the north and the south, as the two had been threatening to split for a long time, and an attempt at separation probably would've been had even without the existence of the issue of slavery.

The only reason we call it a 'Civil War' is because the Union had won, thankfully, and had written the history books to guise it as a 'Civil War' as opposed to a 'Failed War of Independence" (which it actually was). Today, people brandish the Dixie Flag not because of that tainted history, but because it's to show that we are different (both historically and to this day) for better or for worse, and it's honestly something to be proud over. We have a unique history with a predominantly french historical background that was relatively isolated from the union and with a different charted path from the rest of the country (slavery, as terrible as it was, yes not withstanding - but including southern belles and other southern historical icons) and as prideful southerners are to be southerners, they're almost always even more so proud to be Americans first and foremost - myself included. They are, after all, the greatest contributors to our armed forces per capita (and I think maybe even outright).

If Southerners really were as patriotic as you say, why did they tear down the flag?

"Shoot if you must at this old gray head, but spare your country's flag." she said.

[Katganistan]

Got to love the fact this is a non-issue.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/american-flag- ... d=31070079

Yup. Of course, I would be worried as a parent that having a large flag flapping and blocking portions of my child's ability to view the road behind/beside him would cause an accident. Better a smaller one that clips to the door/window frame and is above the driver's view.

[Greed and Death]

Got to love the fact this is a non-issue.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/american-flag- ... d=31070079

Yup. Of course, I would be worried as a parent that having a large flag flapping and blocking portions of my child's ability to view the road behind/beside him would cause an accident. Better a smaller one that clips to the door/window frame and is above the driver's view.

Since the risk of such an accident is almost entirely off campus, the schools regulation is attempting to target off campus behavior, that should be between this young man and his parents or this young man and the local law enforcement. Technocrats at schools should not substitute themselves for the elected government of South Carolina.

And more so between him and law enforcement since he is 18 (though the parents likely own the truck).

[Imperial Esplanade]

Clearly you don't 'get it,' quite actually.

The 'Civil War' is a misnomer, since it was actually a War of Southern Secession that had failed. If the South had won, they would be a sovereign state and your point would be nullified right off the bat.

And, to quote my Southern grandfather, if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass on the ground when he hops.

The entire narrative of 'state vs state' is an abstract one that really has no relevance. Look, as a Catholic I vehemently oppose slavery and I think the overwhelming majority of users here (and Americans overall) think slavery is a terrible thing, including southerners. That said, yes the Confederacy was a slave-holding aristocracy... but so was the Union that abolished slavery not too long before the war, and slavery (albeit being a major issue) wasn't the only tension arising between the north and the south, as the two had been threatening to split for a long time, and an attempt at separation probably would've been had even without the existence of the issue of slavery.

The Union didn't abolish slavery before the war. The Union had taken practically no action on slavery one way or the other, except in the guise of compromises that only delayed the inevitable. Slavery was the chief cause of the war. This has been established. If you want to start another goddamned Civil War thread, then I'll give you plenty of sources to back that basic historical fact.

The only reason we call it a 'Civil War' is because the Union had won, thankfully, and had written the history books to guise it as a 'Civil War' as opposed to a 'Failed War of Independence" (which it actually was).

It's called a Civil War because it fits the definition of a civil war.

Today, people brandish the Dixie Flag not because of that tainted history, but because it's to show that we are different (both historically and to this day) for better or for worse, and it's honestly something to be proud over.

I don't have any issue with some regional pride, though I think that it can be a bit silly. The issue is with the symbol that you chose, which was first used by people who were killing their fellow countrymen in order to maintain their right to keep slaves (Yes, what they were trying to do was to establish their independence. They wished to do so out of fear that the political makeup in the United States had shifted to an anti-slave position, and that their "peculiar institution" would be outlawed). If you want to show German pride, don't fly a swastika, and if you want to show Southern pride, don't fly a Confederate flag.

We have a unique history with a predominantly french historical background that was relatively isolated from the union and with a different charted path from the rest of the country (slavery, as terrible as it was, yes not withstanding - but including southern belles and other southern historical icons) and as prideful southerners are to be southerners, they're almost always even more so proud to be Americans first and foremost - myself included. They are, after all, the greatest contributors to our armed forces per capita (and I think maybe even outright).

If you're proud to be Americans, don't fly a flag that was originally a symbol of people who were trying to kill as many Americans as possible so that they could enslave people. It's a stupid symbol to use, and I suspect that it alienates any number of people who would otherwise either be sympathetic or not care.

"And, to quote my Southern grandfather, if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass on the ground when he hops."

I have absolutely no idea what you're attempting saying that in regards to.

"The Union didn't abolish slavery before the war. The Union had taken practically no action on slavery one way or the other, except in the guise of compromises that only delayed the inevitable. Slavery was the chief cause of the war. This has been established. If you want to start another goddamned Civil War thread, then I'll give you plenty of sources to back that basic historical fact."

Are you kidding me? Slavery was abolished everywhere but the border-states and below in the Union. Read up on your basic US history. Elementary schoolchildren know this to be true.

And yes slavery was a chief cause... did I deny that anywhere? No, but the reasons run deeper than that. For decades prior, the south had felt relatively more and more isolated (which includes more reasons than just slavery) which only spurred a growing sense of nationalism. This was more than just a war to keep their slaves, it was a war to split from the US and start a new nation.
http://personal.tcu.edu/swoodworth/Craven.htm

One of many scholarly reports who agree with the belief that the civil war wasn't just regulated strictly to slavery. That's quite a naive point to hold onto.

"It's called a Civil War because it fits the definition of a civil war."

Nowhere, in that definition, does it account for secessionist movements, which was exactly what the confederacy was. They weren't fighting to keep their slaves and remain a part of the United States, THEY WANTED TO BECOME AN INDEPENDENT NATION. That is not a civil war, that is a war of independence. Again, this is something that elementary school children know.

"I don't have any issue with some regional pride, though I think that it can be a bit silly. The issue is with the symbol that you chose, which was first used by people who were killing their fellow countrymen in order to maintain their right to keep slaves (Yes, what they were trying to do was to establish their independence. They wished to do so out of fear that the political makeup in the United States had shifted to an anti-slave position, and that their "peculiar institution" would be outlawed). If you want to show German pride, don't fly a swastika, and if you want to show Southern pride, don't fly a Confederate flag."

That's fine and all, just understand that it's your opinion and I respect that. I have to respectfully disagree though, because the swastika wasn't the flag of Germany, it was the flag of the Nazi political party and the defacto flag of the tyranny that Adolf Hitler instilled afterward. The Dixie Flag was the dejure flag of the Confederacy of the United States, and is not directly related to slavery or even institutional racism. It's just simply the flag of a failed aspiring state. Apples and oranges. Not only that, but people don't use the Dixie Flag due to its' historical significance, or even in support of the confederacy or any of its' practices, so that's actually entirely irrelevant.

"If you're proud to be Americans, don't fly a flag that was originally a symbol of people who were trying to kill as many Americans as possible so that they could enslave people. It's a stupid symbol to use, and I suspect that it alienates any number of people who would otherwise either be sympathetic or not care."

Again, entirely your opinion and I respect that. I still have to respectfully disagree though, because the confederacy wasn't 'trying to kill as many Americans as possible so that they could enslave people,' they were fighting for independence. Yes, it would be an independent state that would've most likely legalized slavery, but I suspect your tone and your view would been quite different if the confederacy had done an about-face and suddenly opposed legalized, systemic slavery. The fact is, the Confederate Flag represented the Confederate State of America during the 1860's, that's the only thing it really represented historically... culturally today, it's not ever used for its' historical representation or to support what that could've been state would have stood for, but rather solely for southern identity. Like the flag of Scotland is a source of pride for Scots, the flag of the Confederacy is a source of pride for southerners. Yes, I understand it has a tainted past... but it's not the point, it's a flag our region once united under (albeit for relatively negative reasons) and is used as a source for positive, constructive pride today... for all the same reasons the flag of Scotland is a source of positive, constructive pride to them. If anything, I think you should note how such a flag that represented a negative, toxic evil as you make it out to be (for some reason, solely attributing it to slavery) could now be used for entirely different (and now positive) reasons.

[Imperial Esplanade]

Clearly you don't 'get it,' quite actually.

The 'Civil War' is a misnomer, since it was actually a War of Southern Secession that had failed. If the South had won, they would be a sovereign state and your point would be nullified right off the bat. The entire narrative of 'state vs state' is an abstract one that really has no relevance. Look, as a Catholic I vehemently oppose slavery and I think the overwhelming majority of users here (and Americans overall) think slavery is a terrible thing, including southerners. That said, yes the Confederacy was a slave-holding aristocracy... but so was the Union that abolished slavery not too long before the war, and slavery (albeit being a major issue) wasn't the only tension arising between the north and the south, as the two had been threatening to split for a long time, and an attempt at separation probably would've been had even without the existence of the issue of slavery.

The only reason we call it a 'Civil War' is because the Union had won, thankfully, and had written the history books to guise it as a 'Civil War' as opposed to a 'Failed War of Independence" (which it actually was). Today, people brandish the Dixie Flag not because of that tainted history, but because it's to show that we are different (both historically and to this day) for better or for worse, and it's honestly something to be proud over. We have a unique history with a predominantly french historical background that was relatively isolated from the union and with a different charted path from the rest of the country (slavery, as terrible as it was, yes not withstanding - but including southern belles and other southern historical icons) and as prideful southerners are to be southerners, they're almost always even more so proud to be Americans first and foremost - myself included. They are, after all, the greatest contributors to our armed forces per capita (and I think maybe even outright).

If Southerners really were as patriotic as you say, why did they tear down the flag?

"Shoot if you must at this old gray head, but spare your country's flag." she said.

Are you seriously attributing the actions of a single person to the entire south?

Are you seriously that naive, clueless, and possibly even immature?

You do realize that the south commits more to our armed forces than any other national region per capita, right?