America Becoming Less Christian, Survey Shows

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I'm an atheist and that's not at all why I don't believe in a god. It's because there's no evidence for one. There is no reason whatsoever to believe in a god other than "I feel like it's true."

A bunch of uneducated people with unsubstantiated claims. Give me a source for a miracle.

You're bigoted, oppressive, and intolerant by definition as a self-proclaimed theocrat.

There is no life after this one.

1. Okay, that's you. You are one of the few to have an actual logical reason for non-belief. The majority though, don't have this similar reason in mind
2. The only way for me to do so, would be for you to be there; and be very lucky. You are saying that millions of people whom say they have seen miracles are either all liars or uneducated? Funny, that sounds rather bigoted, close minded, and ignorant. Funny, where I have I heard those words before? You cannot deny the literal MILLIONS of claims about miracles occurring. Some, defiantly, others not really.
3. The definition of a theocrat is: A person believing that religion should hold a high regard in the government structure. Also, how are any of my beliefs any of the things you said?

1. Source?

2. Yeah I can. Show me a video. Show me proof. Show me they aren't lying/deluding themselves.

3. "Theocracy is a form of government in which clergy have sovereignty over a territory and official policy is either governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."

I'm not following the rules of some made-up sky fairy.

[Neutraligon]

WHo knew that atheism and religion are in many ways unconnected topics.

Well, I did for one.

Sorry should have put a sarcasm sign on the post.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Human beings are greedy, selfish, and violent. *Cue Anarchy*

Religion has done far more positive than negative in the world. Religion is just another reason some humans use to kill one another, but it isn't even remotely a major reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_ ... ography%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/1 ... extremism/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

That's not even half of the evil and violence religion has brought to the world. Fuck. Off. With. The. Bull. Shit.

The Crusades were not a holy war. It may have been called to the public in the name of religion, but really it was a power play by the European monarchs. Same goes for the European wars of religion. Power plays. If we wish to bring into discussion about ideologies that have caused the most death and destruction in this world, perhaps we should look at your dearest socialism?

[Imperial Esplanade]

Trust me, I'm a Catholic and I've experienced my fair share of Bible-thumping from those around me toward non-believers and vice-versa. I completely agree with you, and one thing I've noticed is that most Christians nowadays are FAR more reasonable and calmer these days than what the media portrays them as. CNN would have you believe most Christians would burn LGBT's at the stake if they could get away with slander, except that is far from the truth.

Here in South-Central MO every other Christian you meet is that bible-thumping stereotype. I'm afraid to let my family know that I support LGBT rights (which is a fairly new policy for me) simply because of the hatred I'm going to receive from my own fucking blood. I just stay quiet and let them do as they want. But I do think as a whole Christianity can be helpful through mission trips, food drives, etc. where they aren't there to promote God rather than do his bidding and help fellow man.

Honestly, that's what the majority of Christians do anyway... it's just turning on the television and listening to the pundits hype up certain issues will divide any household apart. There are far more important things going on in the world, such as the fact that ISIS is slaughtering innocent people for any reason they see fit to stay in the news cycle... but we're too busy fighting over same-sex marriage in our own country to care the slightest bit. That should tell you all you need to know about the mindset of our citizenship.

While it may seem as if every other Christian you meet fits that bill, it just seems that way. When push comes to shove, there's a massive and overwhelmingly "moderate" (tolerant) Christian population. They may disagree with you on certain issues, but it won't seem like they'll call for your head on a platter. Catholicism on the whole has been really good at that these days, I find, regarding the whole mission trips, food drives, and all sorts of various stuff you're hinting at, though I can't say personally for the other denominations.

[Big Jim P]

Well, I did for one.

Sorry should have put a sarcasm sign on the post.

I caught that as well.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_ ... ography%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/1 ... extremism/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

That's not even half of the evil and violence religion has brought to the world. Fuck. Off. With. The. Bull. Shit.

The Crusades were not a holy war. It may have been called to the public in the name of religion, but really it was a power play by the European monarchs. Same goes for the European wars of religion. Power plays. If we wish to bring into discussion about ideologies that have caused the most death and destruction in this world, perhaps we should look at your dearest socialism?

In the name of religion, yes. Who are you to say God did not condone these things?

First of all, I'm not a socialist. Second, yes, please, show me how fucking socialism has caused more death and destruction than religion. Fucking enlighten me.

[Imperial Esplanade]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_ ... ography%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/1 ... extremism/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

That's not even half of the evil and violence religion has brought to the world. Fuck. Off. With. The. Bull. Shit.

The Crusades were not a holy war. It may have been called to the public in the name of religion, but really it was a power play by the European monarchs. Same goes for the European wars of religion. Power plays. If we wish to bring into discussion about ideologies that have caused the most death and destruction in this world, perhaps we should look at your dearest socialism?

^^ This.

Anyone can initiate any war, and use religion as a rallying call... but that doesn't make religion a primary reason for that war, though.

[Neutraligon]

Sorry should have put a sarcasm sign on the post.

I caught that as well.

Really, you mean you as an atheist can be logical and rational and read between the lines

[The Merchant Republics]

That would not be a correct reading of what I said.

I suppose what I meant to say is that a nation must have a strong ethical foundation to remain virtuous; naturally admitting that virtuous is itself a ethical question; but a nation must be able to maintain it's own sense of virtue and strive towards it.

I do not believe an irreligious nation will descend into a hellish wasteland for mere lack of going to church on Sundays. The issue is that secular humanism I believe lacks the proper foundations, or perhaps better said lacks a convincing drive to virtue. What I mean to say is that Western Society is increasingly destroying our local sense of community, and while we are also gaining increasing global consciousness and tolerance, that our tolerance and global consciousness is not well-grounded. We are dawning on an age of relativism, but whereas now we say "I'm an atheist, your a Christian, he's a Muslim let's just be tolerant of each other's ideas." relativistic ethics is very silent on what to do when everyone or almost everyone is going to be born into a non-dogmatic ethical system.

To sort of streamline my point, we are reaching a point where people will not actually know the answer to "What would Jesus do?" and it's not that no one believes in Jesus that's the problem, it's that no one believes in anything that is.

That sense of community does seem to be deteriorating. The lack of trust in other people seems to be growing as the idea of "fuck you, got mine" grows.

But I can guarantee you that this doesn't come from secularism or atheism. It comes from libertarianism. The believe that individual liberty trumps everything else, including the community's welfare. Even if everyone is Christian, you're not going to get that sense of community if individual freedom is considered the greatest above all else.

As a Libertarian, I have to say I hardly see Libertarianism as a powerful enough force in society to be behind this atomization. Outside of America, it's presence is barely noticed, let alone powerful enough to meaningfully impact cultural zeitgeist.

I am not actually making the case that secularism or atheism is causing this rift, I am making the case that they are a result of it. The decline of Christianity in part has made people less communal, because Christianity is intensely communal, and the loss of that common social equalizer has definitely had a significant impact towards the individualization of society.

Yet I would say the strongest forces have been that of technology, economic necessity and shifting values; some of which could be fairly be attributed to neo-liberalism which is indeed a massive cultural force (and of which one may argue libertarianism is a radical off-shoot) and egalitarianism too.

For an example of egalitarianism causing shifts towards atomism in society consider women in the workforce; regardless of the benefits; feminism and the shift towards women in the workplace has meant a radical shift away from a family-centred life-style. It is, overwhelmingly a positive thing, but there is no denying the effect it had.

To not harp to fiercely on any one side, the declining relevance of small businesses and the growth of corporate culture, also further hampers the growth of community, the service sector is increasingly impersonal and faceless. Contributed to by the use of computers and social media as a substitute for social interaction.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

^^ This.

Anyone can initiate any war, and use religion as a rallying call... but that doesn't make religion a primary reason for that war, though.

You can't just rewrite history. You're making this shit up as you go along. They fought for Christianity and God, that's why they thought they were fighting and that was the call to war, so that's what people fought and killed and looted and raped for.

[Imperial Esplanade]

Here in South-Central MO every other Christian you meet is that bible-thumping stereotype. I'm afraid to let my family know that I support LGBT rights (which is a fairly new policy for me) simply because of the hatred I'm going to receive from my own fucking blood. I just stay quiet and let them do as they want. But I do think as a whole Christianity can be helpful through mission trips, food drives, etc. where they aren't there to promote God rather than do his bidding and help fellow man.

All things people can do on their own without a religious text. The decline of religion in America is a good thing- it means people are finally stepping back and evaluating the facts, challenging tradition.

Not necessarily true, it just means Americans aren't buying into the theological beliefs of Christianity like they used to... and please, 70% of Americans are still Christian - that's hardly a 'decline.'

[Neutraligon]

Yay this thread did what I thought it would do and turned into a theist vs atheist debate. Shock and amazement.

[Republic of the Cristo]

1. Okay, that's you. You are one of the few to have an actual logical reason for non-belief. The majority though, don't have this similar reason in mind
2. The only way for me to do so, would be for you to be there; and be very lucky. You are saying that millions of people whom say they have seen miracles are either all liars or uneducated? Funny, that sounds rather bigoted, close minded, and ignorant. Funny, where I have I heard those words before? You cannot deny the literal MILLIONS of claims about miracles occurring. Some, defiantly, others not really.
3. The definition of a theocrat is: A person believing that religion should hold a high regard in the government structure. Also, how are any of my beliefs any of the things you said?

1. Source?

2. Yeah I can. Show me a video. Show me proof. Show me they aren't lying/deluding themselves.

3. "Theocracy is a form of government in which clergy have sovereignty over a territory and official policy is either governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."

I'm not following the rules of some made-up sky fairy.

go talk with a hundred atheists on the street and see what their first and second responses are. I am sure you will see nothing but apathy

If I were to show you a video then you would just say it was a fake, your point?

I said theocrat, not theocracy. You still have not yet backed up your claims.

[Big Jim P]

I caught that as well.

Really, you mean you as an atheist can be logical and rational and read between the lines

I think I might be a bit of an overachiever.

[Neutraligon]

1. Source?

2. Yeah I can. Show me a video. Show me proof. Show me they aren't lying/deluding themselves.

3. "Theocracy is a form of government in which clergy have sovereignty over a territory and official policy is either governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."

I'm not following the rules of some made-up sky fairy.

go talk with a hundred atheists on the street and see what their first and second responses are. I am sure you will see nothing but apathy

If I were to show you a video then you would just say it was a fake, your point?

I said theocrat, not theocracy. You still have not yet backed up your claims.

1. Have done so, most say because there is no reason to think one actually exists. Some say because they were never raised to believe in a god.

[Big Jim P]

Yay this thread did what I thought it would do and turned into a theist vs atheist debate. Shock and amazement.

My atheism is better than your atheism.

[Republic of the Cristo]

^^ This.

Anyone can initiate any war, and use religion as a rallying call... but that doesn't make religion a primary reason for that war, though.

You can't just rewrite history. You're making this shit up as you go along. They fought for Christianity and God, that's why they thought they were fighting and that was the call to war, so that's what people fought and killed and looted and raped for.

They fought and looted and raped because a few sovereigns told them to. Very soon on, it became quite clear it was nothing but a power play. We are not rewriting history, we are looking at it objectively.

[Arach-Naga Combine]

Yes. The irrational belief in the supernatural/diefic/otherworldly is inherently a problem.

How? If one thinks about it, a higher being is inevitable. Our very existence is proof of that, due to the law of cause and effect.
Also, if everyone acted in knowing that they would be judged for what they do in the next life, do you think this world would be all that bad?

Neither of these are sound or valid arguments in any way. They don't have a single true premise. Let's see how many fallacies I can find:

special pleading, equivocation, argument from ignorance, false dichotomy, casual reductionism, false compromise, bastard combination of future considerations and bandwagon, and ends justify means.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

1. Source?

2. Yeah I can. Show me a video. Show me proof. Show me they aren't lying/deluding themselves.

3. "Theocracy is a form of government in which clergy have sovereignty over a territory and official policy is either governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."

I'm not following the rules of some made-up sky fairy.

1. go talk with a hundred atheists on the street and see what their first and second responses are. I am sure you will see nothing but apathy

2. If I were to show you a video then you would just say it was a fake, your point?

I said theocrat, not theocracy. You still have not yet backed up your claims.

1. I said source.

2. wat

3. The rules most Christians espouse are bigoted, oppressive, and intolerant. A theocrat is someone who rules in the name of God or a religion.

[Ajax Prime]

Yay this thread did what I thought it would do and turned into a theist vs atheist debate. Shock and amazement.

This is exactly what I was thinking lol. Religion/Politics/Sports and large discussion groups don't ever mix well.

[Neutraligon]

Yay this thread did what I thought it would do and turned into a theist vs atheist debate. Shock and amazement.

My atheism is better than your atheism.

Oh and original too. Most of the time it is my atheism/theism is better than your theism/atheism.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

You can't just rewrite history. You're making this shit up as you go along. They fought for Christianity and God, that's why they thought they were fighting and that was the call to war, so that's what people fought and killed and looted and raped for.

They fought and looted and raped because a few sovereigns told them to. Very soon on, it became quite clear it was nothing but a power play. We are not rewriting history, we are looking at it objectively.

You're rewriting it. They said they were fighting for God so they were. They were taking back their Holy Land.

[Sodankyla]

Now all that's left is to find a way to hang those psychotic chickenhawks dominating congress. Maybe America will finally regain it's sanity from the ashes of the religiously backed Red Scare era.

[Neutraligon]

They fought and looted and raped because a few sovereigns told them to. Very soon on, it became quite clear it was nothing but a power play. We are not rewriting history, we are looking at it objectively.

You're rewriting it. They said they were fighting for God so they were. They were taking back their Holy Land.

The fact that religion can be so misused is part of the problem. When blind faith is used, atrocities are far more easy to commit.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

You're rewriting it. They said they were fighting for God so they were. They were taking back their Holy Land.

The fact that religion can be so misused is part of the problem. When blind faith is used, atrocities are far more easy to commit.

It can be "misused" because there is no actual god to determine what his religion "truly" is.