Hasbro Toy Erases Black Widow From Her Own Scene

[Fanosolia]

Hawkeye doesn't have his own movie either.

Because no one cares about Hawkeye.

unfortunately that's not far from the truth. like he has some good lines but I don't feel as drawn to him as I should be.

[Fanosolia]

Captain America: 2, another coming 2016
Thor: 2, another coming 2017
Iron Man: 3
Hulk: 1

Black Widow: Iron Man 2, Avengers (both), Captain America: Civil War

Hawkeye doesn't have his own movie either.

You know can I pitch this idea...? black widow. Hawkeye. Buddy cop movie set in shield

[Llamalandia]

Ok, first off you called her a "good guy" second, yeah, but how many parent how many grandparents know that? I mean keep in mind the toy buyers are not always the same as the movie goers. It is especially complicated as children generally aren't buying the toys directly, teens maybe but not like 8 year olds usually. they are usually bought by parents or given as presents.

Yes, I did, sue me.

This is meant for the Black Widow from the movie, not from the comics or other media. I'm pretty sure they have made action figures for alternate universe characters with no problem. Why is Black Widow different?

Sorry that first point wasn't meant to be very serious. Secondly I don't exactly. I don't think that is the issue though. I am just talking about consumer with zero or nearly zero marvel universe knowledge, who maybe" like oh my "black widow" that must be the villain, I want to by my grandson the hero of the movie. Hmm, well capt america now that is a name it sounds like a hero would have, Ill buy little billy that one." it is about minimizing uniformed consumer confusion.

[Tahar Joblis]

I think this has more to do with the fact that Hawkeye and Black Widow....kinda suck. I mean they don't have any superpowers and their uniforms are boring, generic military style suits. Hawkeye uses a bow and arrow in a world of machine guns and missiles. Black Widow is just an "action girl" we've all seen a million times in so many spy and action movies. Her most interesting weapon is a pistol.

In the movie? I disagree.

[Llamalandia]

I don't know hawkeye seems to be the most parodied character though that may have been from before the movies came out. I think Black widow is probably more popular than him but certainly not nearly as popular as captain american. She does seem to have a bit of that generic action girl vibe, but honestly I am just not familiar enough with her character. Has she had a movie of here own. I know what Capt. America has a couple I think? The hulk as one recently plus the old tv show. Iron man had like 3 movies and thor had what a couple? I know hawkeye doesn't have any specifically centered on him and I am not aware of any black widow movies.

Captain America: 2, another coming 2016
Thor: 2, another coming 2017
Iron Man: 3
Hulk: 1

Black Widow: Iron Man 2, Avengers (both), Captain America: Civil War

Exactly, black widow is in 4 movies and the lead star in exactly zero of them. Like people said they excluded hawkeye too, soooo... maybe it has something to do with prominence of the character?

[Tahar Joblis]

Captain America: 2, another coming 2016
Thor: 2, another coming 2017
Iron Man: 3
Hulk: 1

Black Widow: Iron Man 2, Avengers (both), Captain America: Civil War

Exactly, black widow is in 4 movies and the lead star in exactly zero of them. Like people said they excluded hawkeye too, soooo... maybe it has something to do with prominence of the character?

IDK, she had a lot of air time and lines in this movie. It was much more about Hawkeye and Black Widow than anyone else.

That said, I have no trouble finding a bucketload of Black Widow merch related to the Avengers: Ultron movie on Amazon.com. It's not like they're ignoring her in the toy line, they just didn't package her in with that particular Quinjet action figure set.

[Dakini]

Captain America wasn't the most interesting character from the scene.

What conspiracy have I implied? They've blatantly decided that there's no market for girls when it comes to action figures. That's not a conspiracy, it's business. The fact that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy is what interests me, since with a dearth of women action figures, there will obviously be less of an opportunity for girls to collect figures that they can relate to, which in turn means that they get to go back and say "See? Girls don't like action figures." It's the same reason that we're not getting a Black Widow movie despite the enormous popularity of the character.

Captain America is a household name and has been so well before the Avengers movie franchise, or even the comic movie thing that spider man sort of kicked off. He is a super powered man-flag that has a fucking shield. I'm sort of a nerd and I hadn't even heard of black widow before she was Scarlet Johansson. She's not a great character.

You're not much of a nerd then, are you?

I mean, I'm not much of a nerd as far as comic books go, but I'd heard of the Black Widow long before the Avengers movies came out.

[Llamalandia]

Exactly, black widow is in 4 movies and the lead star in exactly zero of them. Like people said they excluded hawkeye too, soooo... maybe it has something to do with prominence of the character?

IDK, she had a lot of air time and lines in this movie. It was much more about Hawkeye and Black Widow than anyone else.

That said, I have no trouble finding a bucketload of Black Widow merch related to the Avengers: Ultron movie on Amazon.com. It's not like they're ignoring her in the toy line, they just didn't package her in with that particular Quinjet action figure set.

Yeah pretty much. I think the premise of the OP was this was a major feminist battle for justice or something. I mean I know it was personal as well wrt the daughter but really? Yeah, it is basically a nonissue, which is what a lot of this thread has been arguing about, whether or not this is even an issue to begin with. The consensus seems to be leaning to it being fairly insignificant.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

IDK, she had a lot of air time and lines in this movie. It was much more about Hawkeye and Black Widow than anyone else.

That said, I have no trouble finding a bucketload of Black Widow merch related to the Avengers: Ultron movie on Amazon.com. It's not like they're ignoring her in the toy line, they just didn't package her in with that particular Quinjet action figure set.

Yeah pretty much. I think the premise of the OP was this was a major feminist battle for justice or something. I mean I know it was personal as well wrt the daughter but really? Yeah, it is basically a nonissue, which is what a lot of this thread has been arguing about, whether or not this is even an issue to begin with. The consensus seems to be leaning to it being fairly insignificant.

Never stated that it was any such thing, only an annoying aspect of a larger trend.

[Llamalandia]

Yeah pretty much. I think the premise of the OP was this was a major feminist battle for justice or something. I mean I know it was personal as well wrt the daughter but really? Yeah, it is basically a nonissue, which is what a lot of this thread has been arguing about, whether or not this is even an issue to begin with. The consensus seems to be leaning to it being fairly insignificant.

Never stated that it was any such thing, only an annoying aspect of a larger trend.

You said in the link text that you were "angry about this" and have subsequently given a number of feminist sounding arguments in support of your position. I may be paraphrasing a bit I don't think I am that far off the mark of characterizing your position am I? I mean that is why I said, or something. I acknowledge it wasn't especially explicit in the OP specifically, though certainly in the quote and the second to last paragraph the feminist premise comes out. I mean you have alink to disney and princresses and what not. And then the final paragraph is about how you want your daughter to have strong female role models. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying it sounds as though you are putting this perhaps not on par with say the wage gap but certainly just by discussing here are elevating pretty darn close to it.

[Republic of Coldwater]

I don't see what the fuss is about, it is just a toy, and it isn't some evil plan from the patriarchy to disregard females.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Never stated that it was any such thing, only an annoying aspect of a larger trend.

You said in the link text that you were "angry about this" and have subsequently given a number of feminist sounding arguments in support of your position. I may be paraphrasing a bit I don't think I am that far off the mark of characterizing your position am I? I mean that is why I said, or something. I acknowledge it wasn't especially explicit in the OP specifically, though certainly in the quote and the second to last paragraph the feminist premise comes out. I mean you have alink to disney and princresses and what not. And then the final paragraph is about how you want your daughter to have strong female role models. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying it sounds as though you are putting this perhaps not on par with say the wage gap but certainly just by discussing here are elevating pretty darn close to it.

Angry is as good a word as any.

My arguments sound like feminist arguments because I believe in gender equality. When arguments have that basis, they will sound feminist. The reason is because they are. This does not make it a major battle, only one aspect of a much larger and more troubling cultural trend that is a major battle. Don't confuse a single shot with the battle itself. Of course, the war metaphor isn't exactly accurate either, as I don't think that this is so much an aggressive move on their part as a stupid and blind one.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I don't see what the fuss is about, it is just a toy, and it isn't some evil plan from the patriarchy to disregard females.

1. Then you don't have to pay any attention to it.

2. Please note where anyone said that it was an evil plan from the patriarchy before continuing on with this conversation. I'd hate to waste my time talking with someone who is willing to make up positions that aren't actually held by anyone, and while I'm sure that you'd never do such a thing, I'd still like to see the post where that was stated.

[Meryuma]

The toy industry is one of the most chauvinistic and gender-segregated parts of the media. I feel like society tolerates a level of sexism with children that they wouldn't so openly with adults.

Captain America wasn't the most interesting character from the scene.

What conspiracy have I implied? They've blatantly decided that there's no market for girls when it comes to action figures. That's not a conspiracy, it's business. The fact that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy is what interests me, since with a dearth of women action figures, there will obviously be less of an opportunity for girls to collect figures that they can relate to, which in turn means that they get to go back and say "See? Girls don't like action figures." It's the same reason that we're not getting a Black Widow movie despite the enormous popularity of the character.

Captain America is a household name and has been so well before the Avengers movie franchise, or even the comic movie thing that spider man sort of kicked off. He is a super powered man-flag that has a fucking shield. I'm sort of a nerd and I hadn't even heard of black widow before she was Scarlet Johansson. She's not a great character.

Captain America is hella boring though. Square-jawed, straight-laced macho guys are the blandest superheroes, especially when you throw in patriotism.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The toy industry is one of the most chauvinistic and gender-segregated parts of the media. I feel like society tolerates a level of sexism with children that they wouldn't so openly with adults.

Captain America is a household name and has been so well before the Avengers movie franchise, or even the comic movie thing that spider man sort of kicked off. He is a super powered man-flag that has a fucking shield. I'm sort of a nerd and I hadn't even heard of black widow before she was Scarlet Johansson. She's not a great character.

Captain America is hella boring though. Square-jawed, straight-laced macho guys are the blandest superheroes, especially when you throw in patriotism.

Despite the fact that we're on the same side in this particular debate, I have to say that I disagree. Captain America, as he's been portrayed in the movies, is anything but boring. He's admittedly straightforward in his approach, but he's also willing and able to differentiate between what he represents as an ideal and the government itself. He's devoted to the nation, but that often means being devoted to what the idea of the nation and taking on those within its governing structure who subvert the ideals while claiming patriotism. It's an interesting mix that Evans pulls off nicely.

But it's also off-topic. Interesting subject, though, since I used to have the same take on him that you do.

[Republic of Coldwater]

I don't see what the fuss is about, it is just a toy, and it isn't some evil plan from the patriarchy to disregard females.

1. Then you don't have to pay any attention to it.

2. Please note where anyone said that it was an evil plan from the patriarchy before continuing on with this conversation. I'd hate to waste my time talking with someone who is willing to make up positions that aren't actually held by anyone, and while I'm sure that you'd never do such a thing, I'd still like to see the post where that was stated.

Nobody literally said that this was some evil plan from the patriarchy, however, from what I have read about this, there seems to be a good amount of people arguing that this is a way for women to be disregarded, to be thrown aside, for there to be a lack of female role models. Yet, I don't see how this is the case, as this is one toy, one single case, yet the Black Widow is still represented in the Hasbro toy line, and can still serve as a role model, and not place women in a position of subservience.

[Dakini]

That's actually a myth.

This is something that I have observed happening in real life. If you have sources showing that Marvel is making an actual effort to market to girls and young women, I'd consider that as evidence that contradicts my point.

But you aren't you presupposing that marvel/disney whoever is supposed to market to girls? I am seriously asking here, because it seems to me there priority is to the bottom line and shareholders. I mean they have a legal obligation to maximize profits. Now, ok maybe you can say that they are in error and would make more money aiming products at boys and girls equally, but I haven't seen that point really be firmly assert and supported with evidence as yet.

How does marketing to only 50% of children maximize their profits?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

1. Then you don't have to pay any attention to it.

2. Please note where anyone said that it was an evil plan from the patriarchy before continuing on with this conversation. I'd hate to waste my time talking with someone who is willing to make up positions that aren't actually held by anyone, and while I'm sure that you'd never do such a thing, I'd still like to see the post where that was stated.

Nobody literally said that this was some evil plan from the patriarchy, however, from what I have read about this, there seems to be a good amount of people arguing that this is a way for women to be disregarded, to be thrown aside, for there to be a lack of female role models. Yet, I don't see how this is the case, as this is one toy, one single case, yet the Black Widow is still represented in the Hasbro toy line, and can still serve as a role model, and not place women in a position of subservience.

If nobody said it, then you shouldn't state that people did say it. I've already covered the rest of your points in previous arguments, and don't feel like rehashing them.

[Conservative Values]

It is Captain America's bike even though she rode it that one time, if I recall correctly the line right before she dropped out of the plane implied she wouldn't enjoy riding it. He rode it far more often in the movie, she rode in that one scene. Perhaps Hasbro just assumed kids would have wider imaginary uses for Cap on his own bike than Black Widow who only rode it that one time. Other characters have held his shield too, but it would seem to be a weird item to sell along side another character even if they were super badass with it.

[AoU SPOILER NOW] And in the opening fight Cap was on his bike when they were behind enemy lines, so it is conceivable he dropped out on it then, we don't know how the bike got there. He was on his bike and every other character was flying, except Thor and Hulk who can get around by jumping and Hawkeye and Black Widow who stole one of the enemies cars. It got to the battle somehow, this is a stretch as to what they were actually thinking, I'm aware, I'm just saying.

I could see arguments for it being either character in the toy, but I don't think choosing the non-female option is sexist.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

It is Captain America's bike even though she rode it that one time, if I recall correctly the line right before she dropped out of the plane implied she wouldn't enjoy riding it. He rode it far more often in the movie, she rode in that one scene. Perhaps Hasbro just assumed kids would have wider imaginary uses for Cap on his own bike than Black Widow who only rode it that one time. Other characters have held his shield too, but it would seem to be a weird item to sell along side another character even if they were super badass with it.

I kinda have to be on board with you here. Kids don't really want the toys to play out the scenes from the movies, they want them so they can play out their own scenes.

[DARGLED]

The motorcycle is Captain America's NOT Black Widow's, so your offense is unfounded.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I don't think this is a huge issue, but if you think the toy is sending the wrong message, then you don't have to buy it.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

It is Captain America's bike even though she rode it that one time, if I recall correctly the line right before she dropped out of the plane implied she wouldn't enjoy riding it. He rode it far more often in the movie, she rode in that one scene. Perhaps Hasbro just assumed kids would have wider imaginary uses for Cap on his own bike than Black Widow who only rode it that one time. Other characters have held his shield too, but it would seem to be a weird item to sell along side another character even if they were super badass with it.

I kinda have to be on board with you here. Kids don't really want the toys to play out the scenes from the movies, they want them so they can play out their own scenes.

True, but what does removing the character from the equipment that was pivotal to the scene, and putting another character in her place do in terms of a message sent? Note that I'm not asking whether or not Hasbro has to worry about said message--they do in my estimation, but that's another point entirely--but what message is there, if any?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The motorcycle is Captain America's NOT Black Widow's, so your offense is unfounded.

Thanks for the compelling argument that does not address the dramatic impact of the moment, or what it did to further establish the character. I'll be sure to give it the compelling attention that it deserves when I have the time4.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I don't think this is a huge issue, but if you think the toy is sending the wrong message, then you don't have to buy it.

I think that it's established that I won't be. I also wrote a letter to the company. In addition, I'm publicizing the issues that I have with this online, and discussing their relevance and import in a forum that was set up to address issues of cultural and political significance both large and small.

If you have any further suggestions, I'm all ears.