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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 9:55 pm

Nazi Flower Power wrote:I don't see it working very well. What happens if two people have a dispute and they can't agree which court to go to?

1) I would recommend checking out David Friedman's video I provided (he's a far smarter man than I and he makes his living teaching law; he specializes in polycentric legal theory and in medieval history). He goes through numerous scenarios like this to see how they would plausibly play out.

2) The point is that the system overall produces strong incentives for cooperation and smooth mechanisms for resolving disputes. Courts no doubt anticipate that there may be disagreements amongst their clients as to who should adjudicate their disputes: client A1 may subscribe to court A2, and client B1 to court B2, and neither trusts one another's court to rule fairly in a dispute involving the two. Court A2 and B2, however, have much to gain from cooperating with one another in the long term (we can't think of the conflict between A1 and B1 as an isolated incident, because there will be innumerable other cases in which the courts A2 and B2 will have to deal with one another or with other courts). So A2 and B2 have strong incentives to create a system of rules for these sorts of cases: if their clients cannot agree, they could contract a third party C2 (a third court) to resolve the dispute fairly, or both courts could simultaneously adjudicate, etc. etc. The point is that there are numerous ways through which they can resolve the dispute peacefully, and the courts have strong incentives to (in fact, their survival is dependent on) develop a procedure for resolving these disputes across cases.

3) Following from (2), it doesn't make sense to engage in aggressive behavior. I went over a long list of reasons why polycentric legal orders counterbalance aggression in my reddit post I linked, but there's a simpler argument that follows from (2). Two courts have to deal with one another routinely for a long time: breaking protocol in a particular case (especially violently) sacrifices that cooperation. So it's not just a matter of "winning the case of A1 and B1", but of sacrificing the business of all subsequent cases in which the clients of A2 and B2 disagree. Law derives its usefulness based on its ability to resolve disputes between different people, so courts cannot survive if they are unable to cooperate.

4) By means of example, imagine two cell service providers. Cell service gains value depending on how many people you can call: if subscribers to one service A1 cannot call subscribers to another service B1, A1 and B1 will lose a lot of value. They have much more to gain by cooperating and allowing customers to contact one another across services.

Having more than one agency to enforce the law isn't totally unworkable, but you still need a consensus on what the law is, and I don't see how a you would provide that without a state. I'm still not seeing how privatized law enforcement would be preferable, but possible? Yeah, OK. It's possible, but it doesn't get around the problem of needing a state to decide what the law is.

The point of polycentric law is not only that you can have more than one agency to enforce the law - that much is very easy to imagine, because history (and contemporary society) is replete with examples of this occurring. Private law enforcement is very easy to imagine; it's very easy to see, because it takes place routinely.

Polycentric law is more interesting because it implies that we can have multiple legislators of law: that is, we can have multiple different legal orders simultaneously interacting. We don't need a "consensus" legal order, but "harmony" between legal orders. I would imagine that legal orders would likely tend toward the same standard - people generally want certain policies because these are policies that make economic sense from their perspective. People are probably going to want legal agencies which protect them from fraud, for example. Because each independent legal firm (each court) only profits by providing what people want, they will provide these policies.

But there are probably examples where firms may differ in their legal services depending on material circumstances. In water-scarce regions such as the desert southwest, it's possible that there will be harsher restrictions on water use and consumption, whereas in other regions water is so abundant that conflicts over its use would not warrant norms for dispute-resolution. Maybe certain businesses will contract with one another with certain explicit understandings for restitution if one agent should fail to meet his end of the deal - this is how corporate law currently works, and it's also essentially the same as a 'prenup' that many couples take before marriage.

There are two important considerations. First, because courts gain value from their interoperability (you need to be able to resolve disputes with other courts), they will tend towards similar laws. If 1% of the population wants legalized murder and 99% does not, no court will be able to provide that service for the 1%, because no court that does so could ever resolve disputes with the other 99%.

Second, this is not identical with democracy, because the competitive and heterogenous nature of the law means that consumers both have direct control over the policies they live under (if court X provides a bad service and court Y provides a good one, consumers can switch from X to Y), and consumers actually have to pay the cost of their own policies (if you want to outlaw drugs, for example, you'll have to choose to pay the massively higher fees of a legal insurance company that will prosecute a drug war; obviously very few people are actually willing to fork over that sort of case, so no such agency could plausibly exist. We'll see a tendency towards libertarian law because these are the sorts of laws that make financial sense for most people: 'minding your own business'. In the statist system, you can pass off the costs of these policies to tax payers more broadly, so costs - in tax burden - are distributed, and people don't face the same disincentives to choosing bad policies).

This is better for a few reasons:

1) We can expect that it will choose more efficient laws, because those laws are produced in a competitive market place in which people must internalize the cost of their behavior. Competitive markets tend to approximate consumer demand better and at a lower price, and consumers can't just pass off the cost of their bad ideas to other people, so they'll make decisions more rationally.

2) A monopoly can unilaterally determine the quality, quantity, and price of the good it produces - the state can produce low-quality laws and a high price (taxes), and consumers have little recourse (we can talk about the electoral process if you want, but the evidence on this is fairly good). Per point (1), the competitive market solves better.

As for the auto manufacturing analogy, we do not have anarchy in auto manufacturing. There are antitrust laws, labor laws, etc. to prevent the automobile industry from becoming too monopolistic or abusive. Competition between auto makers works because there is a higher authority to regulate it and prevent it from derailing into something destructive

Anti-trust is not employed to break up firms in these competitive markets, though. There are certain markets in which anti-trust is employed because monopolization naturally occurs, but in others, the market remains competitive over time. There are generally reasons why monopolies come into being, though: there's only one river, for example, so only one person owns it, and you'll have to use anti-trust to break that up. But there's no "natural monopolization" of, say, the market for apples, because there's no reason why we'd expect competition to break down in that market. You have to provide an additional warrant for why you think monopolization would take place in a market (it's not just the 'presumption' in all cases).
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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 10:04 pm

The Orson Empire wrote:Then could you please provide evidence for the part in bold? If it is true that non-states can provide the same services as states, then are there actual examples of this?

Sure. I think I mentioned elsewhere that medieval Ireland and Iceland were both stateless societies for long periods (centuries) in which law-enforcement was provided polycentrically (I believe legislation was monopolized in Iceland, but not in Ireland? My history may be off). Maghribi traders during the early medieval era (I believe the Islamic "Golden Age") and the later Ottoman Empire (in dealing with certain areas of North Africa, the Arabian peninsula, and some parts of rural Turkey) practiced polycentric law. Modern corporate law is polycentric. Medieval Europe was polycentric (guild law, church law, overlapping jurisdictions of various lords, etc.).

Each of these systems was structured differently, but they all existed (or exist presently) in a decentralized way, and many of them have been very stable and efficient (moreso than their competing systems - this is why corporations contract with private adjudicators rather than through the inefficient state legal system for disputes).

One note: polycentric law isn't just something weird that crazy anarchists like my talk about. There's plenty of mainstream legal scholarship on the history and theory of polycentric law. It's not my speciality, and I focus more in theory than history, but I'd recommend checking out the works of David Friedman for some analysis of historical examples. Much of his writing on the subject is available online.

Nazi Flower Power wrote:A couple of them did have a fit and storm off in a huff, but Augarundus seems to be sticking around and trying to actually explain his point of view. I don't think his ideas would actually work, but it's not fair to be going "Where are the anarchists?" and acting like he's not here.

Thanks - I think this thread is actually fostering some good debate.

I may be going to bed soon (I'll probably stay up a while longer, though), but will be sure to return to this thread. Just don't be surprised if my activity drops off suddenly.
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Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

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Postby Nordenwald » Sat May 09, 2015 10:14 pm

Augarundus wrote:
The Orson Empire wrote:Then could you please provide evidence for the part in bold? If it is true that non-states can provide the same services as states, then are there actual examples of this?

Sure. I think I mentioned elsewhere that medieval Ireland and Iceland were both stateless societies for long periods (centuries) in which law-enforcement was provided polycentrically (I believe legislation was monopolized in Iceland, but not in Ireland? My history may be off). Maghribi traders during the early medieval era (I believe the Islamic "Golden Age") and the later Ottoman Empire (in dealing with certain areas of North Africa, the Arabian peninsula, and some parts of rural Turkey) practiced polycentric law. Modern corporate law is polycentric. Medieval Europe was polycentric (guild law, church law, overlapping jurisdictions of various lords, etc.).

Each of these systems was structured differently, but they all existed (or exist presently) in a decentralized way, and many of them have been very stable and efficient (moreso than their competing systems - this is why corporations contract with private adjudicators rather than through the inefficient state legal system for disputes).

One note: polycentric law isn't just something weird that crazy anarchists like my talk about. There's plenty of mainstream legal scholarship on the history and theory of polycentric law. It's not my speciality, and I focus more in theory than history, but I'd recommend checking out the works of David Friedman for some analysis of historical examples. Much of his writing on the subject is available online.

Nazi Flower Power wrote:A couple of them did have a fit and storm off in a huff, but Augarundus seems to be sticking around and trying to actually explain his point of view. I don't think his ideas would actually work, but it's not fair to be going "Where are the anarchists?" and acting like he's not here.

Thanks - I think this thread is actually fostering some good debate.

I may be going to bed soon (I'll probably stay up a while longer, though), but will be sure to return to this thread. Just don't be surprised if my activity drops off suddenly.


Just out of curiosity, are you a Fred Foldvary fan? I've read a few of his articles and Polycentric Law seems very similar to his notion of Cellular Democracy.
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Postby Alevuss » Sat May 09, 2015 10:20 pm

@ Augarundus

1.) Corporations are still the medium through which people create and, under an ancap, distribute goods.

2.) I fail to see how regulations/products made by corporation(s) would be designed to be of the same level as that of a state/gov't designed to meet those same standards for its people first and foremost. As I said, if a balance between affordability and function is the goal of an ancap corporation, then this would still not meet the needs of a minority w/ extreme psychological or physical disabilities. Many of people in those groups would not be in a position where they can do many forms of skilled labor. Unless the corporation can ensure a sustainable investment, the high levels innovation required would not be used as a state would devote a section of itself to.

3.) Defense of private property as the primary function of the monopolies would be precisely what would prevent the monopolies from upholding environmental regulations or refrain from keeping reserves & biodiversity intact.

4.) Gilded Age US Capitalism, when the US did as little intervention as it could, labor unions were present, corporate competition was low, & private force and mass layoffs were still used.

I'm posting from my 3ds, so, I'm not able to quote you or go into extensive detail.
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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 10:21 pm

Nordenwald wrote:Just out of curiosity, are you a Fred Foldvary fan? I've read a few of his articles and Polycentric Law seems very similar to his notion of Cellular Democracy.

I've never heard of him, but I'll certainly give him a look.
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Nierra
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Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 10:30 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Nierra wrote:

The state is essential to propping up the capitalist system because it enforces contracts and property rights and excludes other force, but capitalism isn't necessary or beneficial for the improvement of our circumstances. At its core, capitalism is just hierarchy- one class of people owning the labor of others, and another class of people working for wages. In socialism, where everyone owns their own labor, people would have much more incentive to work and we'd be spared many of the disastrous consequences of a world in which1% of the population owns 40% of the country's labor, 5% of the population owns 61.9% of the country's labor, and 80% of the population owns 15% of the country's labor.


Socialism = Incentive to work?

The opposite is true, and capitalism is both necessary and beneficial to the people. It allows for individualism, endless opportunity, and growth. Socialism, and most absolutely communism leads to stagnation.

No one "owns" anyone, workers work at their own discretion and businesses are increasingly getting rid of the traditional employee as it is in fact better for the company to invest in the people who work with him. Capitalism has always been about empowering the individual, rather than treating him as a cog. It is socialism that does the opposite. Wealth inequality is natural and can be controlled by progressive stagnation. Opportunity matters more than inequality, and the skill gap is more important to close than the wealth gap.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sat May 09, 2015 10:32 pm

Neo Telangana wrote:Can the anarchists list any society in all of human history which had no state, and which attained a level of collective security and well-being comparable to societies with stable, centralized states?

Even today, there are still some stateless or near-stateless societies like those in Somalia, Afghanistan, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I would hardly consider them to be epitomes of progress.


Not an anarchist, but I've heard medieval Iceland was pretty effect at the whole statelessness thing.
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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 10:33 pm

Alevuss wrote:1.) Corporations are still the medium through which people create and, under an ancap, distribute goods.

Corporations are legal compacts among people. It's possible people will organize through corporations; it's also possible that they'll organize some other way or operate independently. "Ancap" doesn't mean "big business does everything".

2.) I fail to see how regulations/products made by corporation(s) would be designed to be of the same level as that of a state/gov't designed to meet those same standards for its people first and foremost. As I said, if a balance between affordability and function is the goal of an ancap corporation, then this would still not meet the needs of a minority w/ extreme psychological or physical disabilities. Many of people in those groups would not be in a position where they can do many forms of skilled labor. Unless the corporation can ensure a sustainable investment, the high levels innovation required would not be used as a state would devote a section of itself to.

1) The assumption here is that the state produces laws that either its people want or that are in the best interest of its people. It's clear that in many - probably most - cases, this is not the case. No doubt you believe that certain laws should be added or removed, and you are in the majority of opinion on this issue, but for reasons public choice economists can explain, the state won't legislate that way.

2) I've explained elsewhere in this thread why those institutions which produce law (and I don't like to use the word 'corporation' - you wouldn't call a local commune or worker's collective a 'corporation' when criticizing left-wing anarchists, but such an organization is completely compatible with the principles of ancap) would produce laws which consumers desire.

3) To be honest, I'm not sure what the rest of this is really getting at. I don't mean to insult you, but this is a little muddled and I couldn't get clear arguments out of it.

4) Per the thing about certain disabled people not having access to services, I'd assume that the legal system would still produce policies that are favorable for these people. If the same demographic that wants laws against murder and theft in democratic USA today exists in ancap America tomorrow, I don't see why these sorts of intuitive laws won't also get produced?

3.) Defense of private property as the primary function of the monopolies would be precisely what would prevent the monopolies from upholding environmental regulations or refrain from keeping reserves & biodiversity intact.

Again, not sure exactly what this means. Could you explain what exactly you mean in this scenario?

The basic theory is that the body determining laws (the clients of private courts) may have a compelling interest in stopping an environmentally unfriendly practice (for example, a town wants a factory to stop polluting their river). So they take that factory to court, and the court orders the factory to discontinue its pollution or to pay restitution to the town equal to the value of the pollution (or both). If your problem is just that the factory will ignore this ruling, then I've already outlined how courts can deal with disputes over a decision between clients.

4.) Gilded Age US Capitalism, when the US did as little intervention as it could, labor unions were present, corporate competition was low, & private force and mass layoffs were still used.

During the Gilded Age, the US government was lobbied by corporations to introduce anti-union legislation, and the US military was deployed to break up unions. In free markets for labor in which restrictions on unionization are lifted, we see collective bargaining exerting significant economic power.
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 10:37 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:Not an anarchist, but I've heard medieval Iceland was pretty effect at the whole statelessness thing.

My understanding is that medieval Iceland had a king (or equivalent) that unilaterally promulgated the laws. So it had a centralized legislator with a monopoly on legislation.

However, actual enforcement of laws was decentralized and competitive - there were numerous clans which 'protected their own' and negotiated with other clans, and membership in a clan was not permanent, binding, or even (?) geographically dependent, so people could move freely between clans depending on who was providing the best service. There were also various people called 'Lawspeakers', if I recall correctly, whose responsibilities were to recall the laws of the king and to offer interpretations of the law's application to particular disputes. So the 'executive' and 'judicial' branches of government were polycentric (the type we'd see in an anarchist society).
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Postby Mysterious Stranger » Sat May 09, 2015 10:46 pm

Nierra wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:The state is essential to propping up the capitalist system because it enforces contracts and property rights and excludes other force, but capitalism isn't necessary or beneficial for the improvement of our circumstances. At its core, capitalism is just hierarchy- one class of people owning the labor of others, and another class of people working for wages. In socialism, where everyone owns their own labor, people would have much more incentive to work and we'd be spared many of the disastrous consequences of a world in which1% of the population owns 40% of the country's labor, 5% of the population owns 61.9% of the country's labor, and 80% of the population owns 15% of the country's labor.


Socialism = Incentive to work?

The opposite is true, and capitalism is both necessary and beneficial to the people. It allows for individualism, endless opportunity, and growth. Socialism, and most absolutely communism leads to stagnation.

No one "owns" anyone, workers work at their own discretion and businesses are increasingly getting rid of the traditional employee as it is in fact better for the company to invest in the people who work with him. Capitalism has always been about empowering the individual, rather than treating him as a cog. It is socialism that does the opposite. Wealth inequality is natural and can be controlled by progressive stagnation. Opportunity matters more than inequality, and the skill gap is more important to close than the wealth gap.

If 85% of what you produce is taken from you by force, how much incentive to work do you really have left? Half the time, even working doesn't get you up to the level of your basic needs. So you can not work, and not have enough to live on, or work, and still not have enough to live on. What if you're in the bottom 40% of the population, and over 99% of what you produce is taken from you? Is it any surprise we have so many people in the welfare system, and so many criminals? And if you can take 85% of what 8 other people produce by force, obviously you don't have any incentive to work. It's absurd to even consider. Can you imagine it- a C.E.O. working in a factory for eight hours, or working two jobs? Why would he do that? He doesn't need to.
But if you're able to keep what you produce, then every single bit of work you do benefits you in a real and direct way.
Of course capitalism doesn't allow for "individualism, endless opportunity, and growth." It's hierarchy. That's like saying that oligarchy creates the possibility for your average citizen to participate in government because, hey, maybe he'll become an oligarch. Oligarchy is based on excluding the vast majority of the population from having power over the government. What gives your average citizen the ability to participate in government is democracy. And what gives your average worker the ability to participate in economics is workplace democracy.
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Nierra
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Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 10:47 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Alevuss wrote:1.) Corporations are still the medium through which people create and, under an ancap, distribute goods.

Corporations are legal compacts among people. It's possible people will organize through corporations; it's also possible that they'll organize some other way or operate independently. "Ancap" doesn't mean "big business does everything".


Whats the ancap analysis of the market revolution, and how is it at all possible to downplay the incredibly important rule the state had in facilitating an environment where business could thrive?
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Nierra
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Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 10:52 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Nierra wrote:
Socialism = Incentive to work?

The opposite is true, and capitalism is both necessary and beneficial to the people. It allows for individualism, endless opportunity, and growth. Socialism, and most absolutely communism leads to stagnation.

No one "owns" anyone, workers work at their own discretion and businesses are increasingly getting rid of the traditional employee as it is in fact better for the company to invest in the people who work with him. Capitalism has always been about empowering the individual, rather than treating him as a cog. It is socialism that does the opposite. Wealth inequality is natural and can be controlled by progressive stagnation. Opportunity matters more than inequality, and the skill gap is more important to close than the wealth gap.

If 85% of what you produce is taken from you by force, how much incentive to work do you really have left? Half the time, even working doesn't get you up to the level of your basic needs. So you can not work, and not have enough to live on, or work, and still not have enough to live on. What if you're in the bottom 40% of the population, and over 99% of what you produce is taken from you? Is it any surprise we have so many people in the welfare system, and so many criminals? And if you can take 85% of what 8 other people produce by force, obviously you don't have any incentive to work. It's absurd to even consider. Can you imagine it- a C.E.O. working in a factory for eight hours, or working two jobs? Why would he do that? He doesn't need to.
But if you're able to keep what you produce, then every single bit of work you do benefits you in a real and direct way.
Of course capitalism doesn't allow for "individualism, endless opportunity, and growth." It's hierarchy. That's like saying that oligarchy creates the possibility for your average citizen to participate in government because, hey, maybe he'll become an oligarch. Oligarchy is based on excluding the vast majority of the population from having power over the government. What gives your average citizen the ability to participate in government is democracy. And what gives your average worker the ability to participate in economics is workplace democracy.


This is absolutely ridiculous, first of all the 85% number is made up and it makes no sense how you arrived at that conclusion. Minimum wage can be raised,in fact it really should be raised and many states have already raised it.

What you have entirely wrong is that capitalism has nothing to do with a hierarchy, feudalism has hierarchies.

You just have an outdated world view on political economy, this is the 21st century not the gilded age. Just because someone is gaining doesn't mean someone else has to be losing. The ability to start and create a business is incredibly open, someone only has to work minimum wage for 2 years and he has enough start up capital to create a company if he so desires. Workers aren't forced to work, and most companies are modernizing how they view employees to the point where they aren't considered workers, they're collaborators.
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Sat May 09, 2015 10:54 pm

While I am no anarchist, I feel like the ones that believe in a decentralized, localized, non-hierarchical system of organization is probably on some level less shit than the 'hurr gubberment ebul business can do everything better and fairer' types. Anarcho-capitalism just sounds like the biggest pustulent abortion of an ideology oozed up in the anarchist spectrum.
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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 10:54 pm

Nierra wrote:Whats the ancap analysis of the market revolution, and how is it at all possible to downplay the incredibly important rule the state had in facilitating an environment where business could thrive?

1) I'm not sure what you're asking for in the first question. Does there have to be a single ancap interpretation for an economic/historical event? Are you asking for... what, exactly?

2) I've said elsewhere in this thread that I'm not downplaying the positive benefits of the state. I think that the state provides certain valuable services which have made life immeasurably better. We are better off because of the security, healthcare, infrastructure, and education that the state is principally responsible for providing in the West. The ancap objection merely posits that the particular mechanism by which the state provides these services (monopoly) is not the only way of providing them. Instead, we can imagine competitive markets for these services, and these markets can sustain competition without centralizing into new monopolistic states.
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Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 10:55 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:While I am no anarchist, I feel like the ones that believe in a decentralized, localized, non-hierarchical system of organization is probably on some level less shit than the 'hurr gubberment ebul business can do everything better and fairer' types. Anarcho-capitalism just sounds like the biggest pustulent abortion of an ideology oozed up in the anarchist spectrum.

I'd ask you to look over my posts in this thread. I am an anarchocapitalist and have been defending the type of organization you outlined in the first part of this post.
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Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Sat May 09, 2015 10:58 pm

Augarundus wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:While I am no anarchist, I feel like the ones that believe in a decentralized, localized, non-hierarchical system of organization is probably on some level less shit than the 'hurr gubberment ebul business can do everything better and fairer' types. Anarcho-capitalism just sounds like the biggest pustulent abortion of an ideology oozed up in the anarchist spectrum.

I'd ask you to look over my posts in this thread. I am an anarchocapitalist and have been defending the type of organization you outlined in the first part of this post.

Yes, and the posts in question have done nothing to dissuade me. At best it seems like a terrible solution in desperate search of a problem, and at worst just seems like a great way to fuck over a lot of people.
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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 11:00 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:Yes, and the posts in question have done nothing to dissuade me. At best it seems like a terrible solution in desperate search of a problem, and at worst just seems like a great way to fuck over a lot of people.

I guess I don't see the reasoning/argument offered in favor of this conclusion.
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Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

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Nierra
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Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 11:00 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Nierra wrote:Whats the ancap analysis of the market revolution, and how is it at all possible to downplay the incredibly important rule the state had in facilitating an environment where business could thrive?

1) I'm not sure what you're asking for in the first question. Does there have to be a single ancap interpretation for an economic/historical event? Are you asking for... what, exactly?

2) I've said elsewhere in this thread that I'm not downplaying the positive benefits of the state. I think that the state provides certain valuable services which have made life immeasurably better. We are better off because of the security, healthcare, infrastructure, and education that the state is principally responsible for providing in the West. The ancap objection merely posits that the particular mechanism by which the state provides these services (monopoly) is not the only way of providing them. Instead, we can imagine competitive markets for these services, and these markets can sustain competition without centralizing into new monopolistic states.


Yes, but things like singlepayer, infrastructure spending, and like creating laws are much better provided for by the state because they have more resources at their disposal and can allow the private sector to focus on things they do best.

Is what I can take from your view then as you illustrated it, is that you are moderate in practice and ancap in principle/theory?
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Mysterious Stranger
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Postby Mysterious Stranger » Sat May 09, 2015 11:02 pm

Nierra wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:If 85% of what you produce is taken from you by force, how much incentive to work do you really have left? Half the time, even working doesn't get you up to the level of your basic needs. So you can not work, and not have enough to live on, or work, and still not have enough to live on. What if you're in the bottom 40% of the population, and over 99% of what you produce is taken from you? Is it any surprise we have so many people in the welfare system, and so many criminals? And if you can take 85% of what 8 other people produce by force, obviously you don't have any incentive to work. It's absurd to even consider. Can you imagine it- a C.E.O. working in a factory for eight hours, or working two jobs? Why would he do that? He doesn't need to.
But if you're able to keep what you produce, then every single bit of work you do benefits you in a real and direct way.
Of course capitalism doesn't allow for "individualism, endless opportunity, and growth." It's hierarchy. That's like saying that oligarchy creates the possibility for your average citizen to participate in government because, hey, maybe he'll become an oligarch. Oligarchy is based on excluding the vast majority of the population from having power over the government. What gives your average citizen the ability to participate in government is democracy. And what gives your average worker the ability to participate in economics is workplace democracy.


This is absolutely ridiculous, first of all the 85% number is made up and it makes no sense how you arrived at that conclusion. Minimum wage can be raised,in fact it really should be raised and many states have already raised it.

What you have entirely wrong is that capitalism has nothing to do with a hierarchy, feudalism has hierarchies.

You just have an outdated world view on political economy, this is the 21st century not the gilded age. Just because someone is gaining doesn't mean someone else has to be losing. The ability to start and create a business is incredibly open, someone only has to work minimum wage for 2 years and he has enough start up capital to create a company if he so desires. Workers aren't forced to work, and most companies are modernizing how they view employees to the point where they aren't considered workers, they're collaborators.

85% is the actual number. That's the amount of the country's production that's owned by the richest 20% of the population in the United States, like I said in the last post. So, out of any given 10 people, one person is considered to "own" what 7 of them produce plus half of what another one produces, and one is considered to own what another 1 of them produces, while the remaining 8 people share what the remaining one and a half people produce. And this arrangement is enforced by law- by the police. They're forced into it. I can't take what the rich are considered to own or I'll be arrested. I can't produce something using means of production that are considered to be "owned" by the rich without giving them most of my profits, or I'll be arrested.
Hierarchy is "a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority." In capitalism, a small group of the people have a massively disproportionate degree of control over the economy, an ability to take a huge cut from what other people produce and unilaterally control what is produced in their own interests.
Last edited by Mysterious Stranger on Sat May 09, 2015 11:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Sat May 09, 2015 11:05 pm

Augarundus wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:Yes, and the posts in question have done nothing to dissuade me. At best it seems like a terrible solution in desperate search of a problem, and at worst just seems like a great way to fuck over a lot of people.

I guess I don't see the reasoning/argument offered in favor of this conclusion.

And I don't see what problem arachno-capitalism is going to solve, or what it would do better than the system we've got now. Or how it would even function without collapsing into feudalism and/or warlord squabbles.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
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Mysterious Stranger
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Postby Mysterious Stranger » Sat May 09, 2015 11:06 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Augarundus wrote:I guess I don't see the reasoning/argument offered in favor of this conclusion.

And I don't see what problem arachno-capitalism is going to solve, or what it would do better than the system we've got now. Or how it would even function without collapsing into feudalism and/or warlord squabbles.

Oh, is that political nicknaming?
Last edited by Mysterious Stranger on Sat May 09, 2015 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 11:09 pm

Nierra wrote:Yes, but things like singlepayer, infrastructure spending, and like creating laws are much better provided for by the state because they have more resources at their disposal and can allow the private sector to focus on things they do best.

Is what I can take from your view then as you illustrated it, is that you are moderate in practice and ancap in principle/theory?

1) Why does the state have more resources than the private sector? The state acquires resources by means of taxation. Here is an ancap way of thinking about the situation.

A population of customers desires the provision of a good or service (say, automobiles). A state acquires money to produce automobiles by taxing the population. Businesses acquire money to produce automobiles by selling them to the population (or, initially, from loans). In both cases, the institutions have resources only in virtue of a form of payment. The state doesn't magically "have more resources" that it gets out of thin air.

2) I am a moralist in theory and practice - I think non-violation of property rights are an objective, inviolable moral standard, and I don't violate them or participate in their violation. I object to the state on account of the state's violation of private property rights (I think the state is immoral), so I personally do not participate in the state, and I offer ancap as a legal order theoretically consistent with my ethic.
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Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Sat May 09, 2015 11:10 pm

The fact is that the internet would not have been founded if it wasn't for the Government. The very first network was something called ARPNET which would soon become the first network to use internet protocol. This was Government funded, and in many ways a Government linked expenditure. The interstate highway systems that are the backbone of trade and commerce. The market revolution, often identified of capitalisms greatest triumph without the Government protecting the interests of corporations heroic individualists wouldn't be able to succeed. In fact the very existence of a corporation can be linked to the Government. Social Security, would not be a thing. Retirements would be insecure and without obamacare a trip to the emergency room could mean the end of your financial independence.


The internet would have been created without the government. The government just happened to create it first. The World Wide Web was created by individuals.

The Interstate Highway system only exists in the US. I believe it is helpful there, but not impossible to create with private interests. Toll road highways exist .

Companies can work just fine without government.

Social Security would not be necessary if people just saved up for retirement.

Hmmm, I wasn't aware the health care system was a complete and utter failure until Obamacare stepped in. Whatever did people do for the decades before Our Lord and Savior Barack Obama redeemed us from medical bills?
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Mysterious Stranger
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Postby Mysterious Stranger » Sat May 09, 2015 11:11 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Nierra wrote:Yes, but things like singlepayer, infrastructure spending, and like creating laws are much better provided for by the state because they have more resources at their disposal and can allow the private sector to focus on things they do best.

Is what I can take from your view then as you illustrated it, is that you are moderate in practice and ancap in principle/theory?

1) Why does the state have more resources than the private sector? The state acquires resources by means of taxation. Here is an ancap way of thinking about the situation.

A population of customers desires the provision of a good or service (say, automobiles). A state acquires money to produce automobiles by taxing the population. Businesses acquire money to produce automobiles by selling them to the population (or, initially, from loans). In both cases, the institutions have resources only in virtue of a form of payment. The state doesn't magically "have more resources" that it gets out of thin air.

2) I am a moralist in theory and practice - I think non-violation of property rights are an objective, inviolable moral standard, and I don't violate them or participate in their violation. I object to the state on account of the state's violation of private property rights (I think the state is immoral), so I personally do not participate in the state, and I offer ancap as a legal order theoretically consistent with my ethic.

Well, that sounds pretty universalist. What kind of moralist are you?

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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Sat May 09, 2015 11:12 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:And I don't see what problem arachno-capitalism is going to solve, or what it would do better than the system we've got now. Or how it would even function without collapsing into feudalism and/or warlord squabbles.

Oh, is that political nicknaming?

It was a typo, what with me typing on a laggy smartphone with autocorrect. Good to see that anarchists aren't free from being smug, though. Really showed me.

*pap pap*
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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