NATION

PASSWORD

Anarchists Explain Yourselves!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Augarundus
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7004
Founded: Dec 22, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 8:52 pm

Alevuss wrote:The issue with this is that capitalism alone would not create certain goods that are accessible to portions of the population, either because the demand itself is too low and there would be no sustainable profit in this without some sort of tax collection by a state whose job is to provide a basic standard of living to its people, or because certain jobs are not in the interest of many corporations or even small businesses. If it is optional, very few businesses would be interested in paying for an environmental regulation services that exist solely to limit where it can work or the materials it uses.

Not to mention, privatized militarism has employed by a number of companies to maintain monopolies or low labor standards. Private military companies would still exist after the dismantling of a state because a corporation is better at promising a payment or some return on an investment than a ragtag group of laborers with low wages or a corporation that seeks to work within the confines of permaculture, the latter of which would be limited by the likely higher costs of distributing its goods across a large population and the extra care needed to extract/develop those resources without significant long-term damage to the environment or infringing upon another corporation's resources.

You could argue labor unions would enforce all standards that would protect people, but then that's no longer anarcho-capitalism; it's anarcho-syndicalism.

1) Capitalism does not create anything. People create things, and we call that capitalism.


2) We have strong theoretical and empirical reasons to suspect that this argument is not true - that there won't be 'disenfranchised poor' who lack access to legal representation under ancap.

--- 2a) Theoretical reasons - by definition, there are no barriers to entry in the legal market for ancap. Law doesn't face limitations imposed by natural scarcity in the same way that finite resources do; in fact, law is unique in that it gains value with increased social cooperation (the value of a legal service increases depending on how many people use it, because the value is dependent on its ability to arbitrate interpersonal disputes. Think about this the same way that the internet gains in value depending on the content/users who use it). We have strong reasons to believe both that legal insurance agencies will seek to provide services to the poor (they gain value from it) and that the poor will generate their own legal services (because, again, no barriers to entry).

---2b) Empirical reasons - comparing the manner in which goods are provided in decentralized markets and centralized states, in almost all circumstances the former provides better access to services for the poor than the latter, and we have strong economic scholarship to back this up. The poor have fairly reliable access to low-cost high-quality clothing and food, for example ('food deserts' notwithstanding, the poor in the US are incomparably better than elsewhere with respect to these market-provided circumstances; I don't want to paint too rosy a picture, but we need to think comparatively). The poor in the US do not, however, have reliable access to two services which are provided by the state: education (monopolized by the state and low-quality) and law (monopolized the state and low-quality), both of which are actually often detrimental to the poor (see: police brutality and violence in urban schools).


3) The point here is that it is not optional for businesses to abide by environmental protection regulations under anarchocapitalism. I'd recommend that you take a look at the video I linked to a lecture by David Friedman in my second post in this thread for a fuller explanation, but basically we can expect a polycentric legal order to produce laws in a way that is 'economically efficient', and I mean that in the term economist's use it: a way that balances the aggregate social benefits and costs of policies. There are numerous ways to enforce these policies (legal insurance companies could, for example, send troops to force a factory to stop polluting), but we have strong reason to believe that people will have economic incentives to assent to these laws, because polycentric law thrives on discouraging rule-breaking through ostracism.


4) I believe the link I provided on ancap IR theory provides an explanation as to why militarist adventurism would not pay under polycentric law, whereas I think it does pay under statism (see: almost every war in the last few millennia). The warlords argument is the most common that ancapism deals with, but I recommend you take a look at my post on why I think ancapistan can exist in a stable equilibrium (sort of 'balance of powers' theory).

5) I contrast this with the reasons why I don't think that the international state-based order can ever have a true 'balance of powers' (I think that the international system is chronically unstable, I recommend looking into John Mearsheimer's theory of 'offensive realism' from "The Tragedy of Great Power Politics"). If you are worried about ancapism because of 'private militarism', you should be even more greatly worried about statism because of statist militarism

6) Labor unions are compatible with anarchocapitalism. Anarchocapitalism merely defends a legal order based on the protection of private property rights: if the free organization of labor seeks to represent itself (and I am an anarchocapitalist who actually thinks labor unions would face a strong revival in an ancap society; they would be far stronger and more important than they are today), then that is completely compatible with a system of property rights. You will find that many strong early proponents of free market capitalism and even anarchism were advocates for labor unions: Herbert Spencer comes to mind.
Libertarian Purity Test Score: 160
Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 pm

Davinhia wrote:
Nierra wrote:Or, you know medicine and doctors? As well as hospitals facilitated by the state? I disagree with anachro-capitalism entirely it literally has no merits whatsoever but I don't want this to be a thread jack about that. I'm referencing all forms of anarchism so I'll contest the ancaps in a different thread.

Government's are not the cause of war, society is. In all of it's forms, in all of human history. Actually, I would make the argument that Governments are the solution to war in the long run. If it wasn't for Governments we would never have the widespread of democracy and free trade which prevents the vast majority of war in general. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NIgqS47m5k

Murder rates are going *down (Fixed your horrid spelling) because it simply isn't necessary and there aren't enough genuine motives to kill anyone it simply makes everyone worse off.To argue it's all because of guns is the most ridiculous generalization that cannot be blatantly presumed to be true without statistical evidence to back this up as a trend throughout human history that is linked to crime.


Come on! You have to pay for most of your hospital visits if you're the average person. Sure, some of it is government funded, but why are there private insurance companies, why is it being privatised now? Just because you disagree with it does not mean that it is automatically bad. There are some things I disagree with that aren't bad.

It's mainly governments. If you look at society, it's rarely them. The worst it can get is just a bunch of extremist muslims running around executing people. The USA government, however, is like "lolnop let's bomb them for no reason!" The government is all about killing people. And knowledge does not come from governments, it comes from curiosity of the people.

There has always been murder, and there will always be murder. There is no way of stopping it. Last time I checked, the amount of crazy people is still pretty high. Guns have nothing to do with this, and I have no idea why you brought the subject up. Government does not mean no murders. Have you looked at most governments, say, gee, I don't know, Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, USA, Sudan, Libya, Syria. I can go on, and on, and on just about the rates at which governments murder people.


War is on the way down, US foreign policy is much more complicated than that, and much of what you said isn't the point.

The murder point was fluff, I removed it.

Government contributions have been mentioned in the OP
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
Lordareon
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 416
Founded: Feb 18, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Lordareon » Sat May 09, 2015 8:55 pm

I like government for a few good reasons.

1.they keep and build public services for me to use
2.they have army's and police to keep me safe me for thos how wold do me harm
3.they have rules and laws that make the world around me safer and protect my property
4.they allow for a large amount of freedom for me to do as i please
5.they allow me to have a voice in the making of this laws by having elections
6.they allow for traditions to be preserved and society to go on in a normal fashion

And in return i follow the rules that they have set out and pay my taxes to help pay for the Laws and Army and police and public services because they make me happy and make my life easier and i many other feel the same as i.
Last edited by Lordareon on Sat May 09, 2015 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Sat May 09, 2015 8:55 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Bogdanov Vishniac wrote:
It is. It's just as meaningless as this one;

(Image)

Unless you're willing to take up the argument that not importing enough Mexican lemons causes road fatalities, of course.



And that's confirmation bias right there.


Except it's pretty obvious the state generally has improved it's peoples' lives, at least if you have a basic grasp on history.


Not really. Modern states that lean in the direction of social democracy have improved peoples lives for sure. But states that improve peoples lives are very recent. In most of history states harmed the majority (who lived as serfs or slaves).

But your entire argument is meaningless because anarchists don't want to get rid of social organization. We certainly do not want to get rid of the type of organization that results in positive things like the internet or medicine.

We want to get rid of coercive hierarchy. When anarchists say we want to abolish the state: That is what we are usually saying. What the data ACTUALLY shows is that the closer states get to the anarchist ideal (the higher the democracy and the more equal) the better living conditions are.

In other words, the less authoritarian and more "socialist" or "egalitarian" a state is, generally speaking, the better the quality of life in every way.
Last edited by Natapoc on Sat May 09, 2015 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Natapoc
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19864
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Natapoc » Sat May 09, 2015 8:57 pm

Lordareon wrote:I like government for a few good reasons.

1.they keep and build public services for me to use
2.they have army's and police to keep me safe me for thos how wold do me harm
3.they have rules and laws that make the world around me safer and protect my property
4.they allow for a large amount of freedom for me to do as i please
5.they allow me to have a voice in the making of this laws by having elections
6.they allow for traditions to be preserved and society to go on in a normal fashion

And in return i follow the rules that they have set out and pay my taxes to help pay for the Laws and Army and police and public services because they make me happy and make my life easier and i many other feel the same as i.


What a good citizen. Your local friendly propaganda minister will be over shortly to give you a ribbon. ;)
Did you see a ghost?

User avatar
Lordareon
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 416
Founded: Feb 18, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Lordareon » Sat May 09, 2015 8:59 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Lordareon wrote:I like government for a few good reasons.

1.they keep and build public services for me to use
2.they have army's and police to keep me safe me for thos how wold do me harm
3.they have rules and laws that make the world around me safer and protect my property
4.they allow for a large amount of freedom for me to do as i please
5.they allow me to have a voice in the making of this laws by having elections
6.they allow for traditions to be preserved and society to go on in a normal fashion

And in return i follow the rules that they have set out and pay my taxes to help pay for the Laws and Army and police and public services because they make me happy and make my life easier and i many other feel the same as i.


What a good citizen. Your local friendly propaganda minister will be over shortly to give you a ribbon. ;)


Well in truth i am a monarchist i belive in The divine right of kings
The divine right is a political and religious doctrine of royal and political legitimacy. It asserts that a monarch is subject to no earthly authority, deriving the right to rule directly from the will of God. The king is thus not subject to the will of his people, the aristocracy, or any other estate of the realm, the Catholic Church. According to this doctrine, only God can judge an unjust king. The doctrine implies that any attempt to depose the king or to restrict his powers runs contrary to the will of God and may constitute a sacrilegious act. It is often expressed in the phrase "by the Grace of God," attached to the titles of a reigning monarch.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 9:01 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
Except it's pretty obvious the state generally has improved it's peoples' lives, at least if you have a basic grasp on history.


Not really. Modern states that lean in the direction of social democracy have improved peoples lives for sure. But states that improve peoples lives are very recent. In most of history states harmed the majority (who lived as serfs or slaves).

But your entire argument is meaningless because anarchists don't want to get rid of social organization. We certainly do not want to get rid of the type of organization that results in positive things like the internet or medicine.

We want to get rid of coercive hierarchy. When anarchists say we want to abolish the state: That is what we are usually saying. What the data ACTUALLY shows is that the closer states get to the anarchist ideal (the higher the democracy and the more equal) the better living conditions are.

In other words, the less authoritarian and more "socialist" or "egalitarian" a state is, generally speaking, the better the quality of life in every way.


You only addressed one portion, the social aspect of anarchism and in many ways I would argue there is no concept of social leftism in anarchism as anarchism is simply a way of organizing and running a 'society'. You can be right wing socially and for anarchism.

The other portion that you didn't address, which is significantly more important than you did address is the concept of economic centralism. Bearing in mind that the facilitation of all these various types of social programs would require a very economically influential central Government and virtually any form of transportation you use would be virtually impossible to use efficiently if it were not for the state.

Abolishing the state pretty much means you rule out all these things, which makes anarchism an impossible thing to achieve if you want to keep your way of life.
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
The Orson Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31630
Founded: Mar 20, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Orson Empire » Sat May 09, 2015 9:01 pm

Anarchism is flawed and could probably never work. Humans developed the state for a reason.

Imagine this- it's the year 6,000 B.C. Your tribe has recently discovered agriculture, and is beginning to become sedentary and rely on farming as their food source. There is a particular strip of land that is very fertile that your tribe wants to control and cultivate; however, rival tribes want this land as well, which leads to warfare. The state arose out of necessity- it was a means of keeping order, as well as maintaining the division of labor necessary in an agricultural society and having the monopoly on violence so that tribes wouldn't continue massacring each other.
Last edited by The Orson Empire on Sat May 09, 2015 9:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 9:01 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Lordareon wrote:I like government for a few good reasons.

1.they keep and build public services for me to use
2.they have army's and police to keep me safe me for thos how wold do me harm
3.they have rules and laws that make the world around me safer and protect my property
4.they allow for a large amount of freedom for me to do as i please
5.they allow me to have a voice in the making of this laws by having elections
6.they allow for traditions to be preserved and society to go on in a normal fashion

And in return i follow the rules that they have set out and pay my taxes to help pay for the Laws and Army and police and public services because they make me happy and make my life easier and i many other feel the same as i.


What a good citizen. Your local friendly propaganda minister will be over shortly to give you a ribbon. ;)


Propaganda? The effects are visual, and we can use them.
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
Mysterious Stranger
Diplomat
 
Posts: 659
Founded: Apr 04, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Mysterious Stranger » Sat May 09, 2015 9:02 pm

Nierra wrote:Human population growth over all of human history looks like this:

http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hir ... opulat.gif[/spoiler

Wars over the time period of Human History are now in massive decline - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbuUW9i-mHs

These are around 27 reasons as to why society has made significant progress over the years.
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7272929/charts-thankful


The inherent nature of these things are all linked to the state. It's linked with advancements in our legal system, it's linked with advancements in trade, and it's linked with advancements in technology and medicine. You might believe yourselves in stating that these ventures and triumphs of humanity are inherently achieved in spite of the state, but this is simply untrue.

The fact is that the internet would not have been founded if it wasn't for the Government. The very first network was something called ARPNET which would soon become the first network to use internet protocol. This was Government funded, and in many ways a Government linked expenditure. The interstate highway systems that are the backbone of trade and commerce. The market revolution, often identified of capitalisms greatest triumph without the Government protecting the interests of corporations heroic individualists wouldn't be able to succeed. In fact the very existence of a corporation can be linked to the Government. Social Security, would not be a thing. Retirements would be insecure and without obamacare a trip to the emergency room could mean the end of your financial independence.

Government has failed before, and it will fail again. Sometimes it's messy and bureaucratic instead of efficient and lean. This makes it easy to scold Government and blame it for being the source of most of our problems, but without the state protecting our freedoms and our opportunity we would never be able to build much of what we call the fundamentals of our economy or the basis of American Capitalism.

The inherent principles of economic systems is not only aided by a state, but requires the state to establish a dry ground of economic fundamentals and insure it to fertilize the soil to pave the way for economic growth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNftCCwAol0

The question - Anarchism resides in a radically different way of thinking and form of governing than the State or Mixed Market Economies. If things are getting so much better than, well any period in human history, why would we want to flip everything on its head? Government has made mistakes, but the net positive has grown.

How would anarchism in any form sustain a city, let alone a global market place?

It is also ridiculous to state that the State plays no rule in this. The reasoning? States are Big, and virtually anything they do will have an effect on everything in some way, shape, or form.

While a lot of things are improving, we currently have states, and most things have an effect on most other things, the fact that a lot of things are improving doesn't necessarily mean that states are the reason that a lot of things are improving. For example, the state might be having a negative effect, but not a strong enough effect to overpower other factors. Things might be improving because technology is advancing, or because the ideals of liberalism are spreading, or because science is becoming more widely accepted. Consider this: most people have been right handed throughout the entire period of time you're looking at here. If, as you think, things have been constantly getting better through that whole time period, could we conclude that right handedness was the reason things were getting better? It certainly has an effect on a lot of things- after all, it determines the way nearly everything is manufactured, from keyboards to doorknobs to airplanes. It has effects on writing systems and, in some places, has been influential in determining which side of the road people drive on. So it certainly has far reaching effects. But just because there's a correlation between two things, even when the first is clearly a very influential thing, doesn't necessarily imply that the first thing causes the second.

User avatar
Augarundus
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7004
Founded: Dec 22, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 9:03 pm

The Orson Empire wrote:Anarchism is flawed and could probably never work. Humans developed the state for a reason.

Imagine this- it's the year 6,000 B.C. Your tribe has recently discovered agriculture, and is beginning to become sedentary and rely on farming as their food source. There is a particular strip of land that is very fertile that your tribe wants to control and cultivate; however, rival tribes want this land as well, which leads to warfare. The state arose out of necessity- it was a means of keeping order, as well as maintaining the division of labor necessary in an agricultural society and having the monopoly on violence so that tribes wouldn't continue massacring each other.

It's 6000 BC, and your tribe has discovered agriculture, and now needs to defend its land from rival warlords. The spear was invented out of necessity as a means of defending yourselves.

Is it possible that wars could be fought without the spear? It was developed for a reason!
Libertarian Purity Test Score: 160
Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 9:05 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Nierra wrote:Human population growth over all of human history looks like this:

http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hir ... opulat.gif[/spoiler

Wars over the time period of Human History are now in massive decline - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbuUW9i-mHs

These are around 27 reasons as to why society has made significant progress over the years.
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7272929/charts-thankful


The inherent nature of these things are all linked to the state. It's linked with advancements in our legal system, it's linked with advancements in trade, and it's linked with advancements in technology and medicine. You might believe yourselves in stating that these ventures and triumphs of humanity are inherently achieved in spite of the state, but this is simply untrue.

The fact is that the internet would not have been founded if it wasn't for the Government. The very first network was something called ARPNET which would soon become the first network to use internet protocol. This was Government funded, and in many ways a Government linked expenditure. The interstate highway systems that are the backbone of trade and commerce. The market revolution, often identified of capitalisms greatest triumph without the Government protecting the interests of corporations heroic individualists wouldn't be able to succeed. In fact the very existence of a corporation can be linked to the Government. Social Security, would not be a thing. Retirements would be insecure and without obamacare a trip to the emergency room could mean the end of your financial independence.

Government has failed before, and it will fail again. Sometimes it's messy and bureaucratic instead of efficient and lean. This makes it easy to scold Government and blame it for being the source of most of our problems, but without the state protecting our freedoms and our opportunity we would never be able to build much of what we call the fundamentals of our economy or the basis of American Capitalism.

The inherent principles of economic systems is not only aided by a state, but requires the state to establish a dry ground of economic fundamentals and insure it to fertilize the soil to pave the way for economic growth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNftCCwAol0

The question - Anarchism resides in a radically different way of thinking and form of governing than the State or Mixed Market Economies. If things are getting so much better than, well any period in human history, why would we want to flip everything on its head? Government has made mistakes, but the net positive has grown.

How would anarchism in any form sustain a city, let alone a global market place?

It is also ridiculous to state that the State plays no rule in this. The reasoning? States are Big, and virtually anything they do will have an effect on everything in some way, shape, or form.

While a lot of things are improving, we currently have states, and most things have an effect on most other things, the fact that a lot of things are improving doesn't necessarily mean that states are the reason that a lot of things are improving. For example, the state might be having a negative effect, but not a strong enough effect to overpower other factors. Things might be improving because technology is advancing, or because the ideals of liberalism are spreading, or because science is becoming more widely accepted. Consider this: most people have been right handed throughout the entire period of time you're looking at here. If, as you think, things have been constantly getting better through that whole time period, could we conclude that right handedness was the reason things were getting better? It certainly has an effect on a lot of things- after all, it determines the way nearly everything is manufactured, from keyboards to doorknobs to airplanes. It has effects on writing systems and, in some places, has been influential in determining which side of the road people drive on. So it certainly has far reaching effects. But just because there's a correlation between two things, even when the first is clearly a very influential thing, doesn't necessarily imply that the first thing causes the second.


So to sum up your point, correlation =/= causation, and to respond to your point....

[/quote]You might believe yourselves in stating that these ventures and triumphs of humanity are inherently achieved in spite of the state, but this is simply untrue.

The fact is that the internet would not have been founded if it wasn't for the Government. The very first network was something called ARPNET which would soon become the first network to use internet protocol. This was Government funded, and in many ways a Government linked expenditure. The interstate highway systems that are the backbone of trade and commerce. The market revolution, often identified of capitalisms greatest triumph without the Government protecting the interests of corporations heroic individualists wouldn't be able to succeed. In fact the very existence of a corporation can be linked to the Government. Social Security, would not be a thing. Retirements would be insecure and without obamacare a trip to the emergency room could mean the end of your financial independence.

Government has failed before, and it will fail again. Sometimes it's messy and bureaucratic instead of efficient and lean. This makes it easy to scold Government and blame it for being the source of most of our problems, but without the state protecting our freedoms and our opportunity we would never be able to build much of what we call the fundamentals of our economy or the basis of American Capitalism.

The inherent principles of economic systems is not only aided by a state, but requires the state to establish a dry ground of economic fundamentals and insure it to fertilize the soil to pave the way for economic growth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNftCCwAol0

The question - Anarchism resides in a radically different way of thinking and form of governing than the State or Mixed Market Economies. If things are getting so much better than, well any period in human history, why would we want to flip everything on its head? Government has made mistakes, but the net positive has grown.

How would anarchism in any form sustain a city, let alone a global market place?

It is also ridiculous to state that the State plays no rule in this. The reasoning? States are Big, and virtually anything they do will have an effect on everything in some way, shape, or form.[/quote]
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
The Orson Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31630
Founded: Mar 20, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Orson Empire » Sat May 09, 2015 9:06 pm

Augarundus wrote:
The Orson Empire wrote:Anarchism is flawed and could probably never work. Humans developed the state for a reason.

Imagine this- it's the year 6,000 B.C. Your tribe has recently discovered agriculture, and is beginning to become sedentary and rely on farming as their food source. There is a particular strip of land that is very fertile that your tribe wants to control and cultivate; however, rival tribes want this land as well, which leads to warfare. The state arose out of necessity- it was a means of keeping order, as well as maintaining the division of labor necessary in an agricultural society and having the monopoly on violence so that tribes wouldn't continue massacring each other.

It's 6000 BC, and your tribe has discovered agriculture, and now needs to defend its land from rival warlords. The spear was invented out of necessity as a means of defending yourselves.

Is it possible that wars could be fought without the spear? It was developed for a reason!

Your argument is flawed.

Without concepts such as the division of labor, large agricultural societies would have been unable to function.

User avatar
Neo Telangana
Envoy
 
Posts: 275
Founded: May 08, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Neo Telangana » Sat May 09, 2015 9:06 pm

Can the anarchists list any society in all of human history which had no state, and which attained a level of collective security and well-being comparable to societies with stable, centralized states?

Even today, there are still some stateless or near-stateless societies like those in Somalia, Afghanistan, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I would hardly consider them to be epitomes of progress.
My nation reflects my actual political views, and it has absolutely nothing to do with steampunk.

Pro: Secularism, Atheism, Socialism, Progressivism, Rationalism, Separation of Powers, Industrialization, Nationalism, Gender/Racial/Sexual Equality

Con: Theocracy, Religion, Laissez-faire Capitalism, Traditionalism, Dogma, Autocracy, Pre-Modern Romanticism, Multiculturalism, Gender/Racial/Sexual Discrimination

I use red to indicate what I LIKE, and green to indicate what I DON'T LIKE. Screw your traditional color roles.

User avatar
Alevuss
Senator
 
Posts: 3976
Founded: Jan 10, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Alevuss » Sat May 09, 2015 9:07 pm

Davinhia wrote:
Nierra wrote:Or, you know medicine and doctors? As well as hospitals facilitated by the state? I disagree with anachro-capitalism entirely it literally has no merits whatsoever but I don't want this to be a thread jack about that. I'm referencing all forms of anarchism so I'll contest the ancaps in a different thread.

Government's are not the cause of war, society is. In all of it's forms, in all of human history. Actually, I would make the argument that Governments are the solution to war in the long run. If it wasn't for Governments we would never have the widespread of democracy and free trade which prevents the vast majority of war in general. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NIgqS47m5k

Murder rates are going *down (Fixed your horrid spelling) because it simply isn't necessary and there aren't enough genuine motives to kill anyone it simply makes everyone worse off.To argue it's all because of guns is the most ridiculous generalization that cannot be blatantly presumed to be true without statistical evidence to back this up as a trend throughout human history that is linked to crime.


Come on! You have to pay for most of your hospital visits if you're the average person. Sure, some of it is government funded, but why are there private insurance companies, why is it being privatised now? Just because you disagree with it does not mean that it is automatically bad. There are some things I disagree with that aren't bad.

It's mainly governments. If you look at society, it's rarely them. The worst it can get is just a bunch of extremist muslims running around executing people. The USA government, however, is like "lolnop let's bomb them for no reason!" The government is all about killing people. And knowledge does not come from governments, it comes from curiosity of the people.

There has always been murder, and there will always be murder. There is no way of stopping it. Last time I checked, the amount of crazy people is still pretty high. Guns have nothing to do with this, and I have no idea why you brought the subject up. Government does not mean no murders. Have you looked at most governments, say, gee, I don't know, Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, USA, Sudan, Libya, Syria. I can go on, and on, and on just about the rates at which governments murder people.


Those governments are cherry-picked, as it also ignores that half of the ones you listed are in a state of economic or social crisis, whereas the US is in the processing backing off from the Cold War, China is trying to maintain an authoritarian and Communist systems while meeting the need to engage in global capitalism, and Saudi Arabia's harshness is not a function of government and it's existence is due the amount of sovereignty that the Ottoman Empire allowed it before being divided and the House of Saud happened to be the ones who had established a relatively stable government that was partially sovereign for at least a generation and thus was able to establish control and some element of stability to other parts of the region.

As for murder guns do have something to do with it. In 2011, 69.6% of homicides were done via gun. The fact that death by gun takes only a few seconds makes it very difficult to prevent if the killer needs very little time to commit the act, planning against visibility of the homicide aside. Arguably, aggression has become an inherent part of human evolution thus far, but most governments have proven relatively good at providing access to resources that keep aggression, or acting on it, low or unfavorable to the aggressor.
When life gives you lemons. . . You might as well shove 'em where the sun don't shine, because you sure as hell aren't ever going to see any lemonade.-Rob Thurman
Kalaspia-Shimarata wrote:Man, these Austrians sure don't speak English...

Georgism wrote:Those Australians sure don't speak English...

Aelosia wrote:
Neaglia wrote:There's a whole internet full of porn out there! You guys are wasting the fraction of a penny that these shares have entitled you to

But this is NS related. This is a NS related thing. This is a NS player.
アレヴッ —Alevuss

User avatar
Augarundus
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7004
Founded: Dec 22, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Augarundus » Sat May 09, 2015 9:09 pm

The Orson Empire wrote:Your argument is flawed.

Without concepts such as the division of labor, large agricultural societies would have been unable to function.

I agree, but it's unclear why, without the state, large agricultural societies would not have been able to function (or, more specifically, why large societies today would not be able to function).

Without the spear, ancient societies would not have survived, but today we have superior technology, so society can survive without the spear. The essential service (security) must still be provided, but we have available different tools with which we can provide it.
Libertarian Purity Test Score: 160
Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

User avatar
The Orson Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31630
Founded: Mar 20, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Orson Empire » Sat May 09, 2015 9:09 pm

Neo Telangana wrote:Can the anarchists list any society in all of human history which had no state, and which attained a level of collective security and well-being comparable to societies with stable, centralized states?

Even today, there are still some stateless or near-stateless societies like those in Somalia, Afghanistan, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I would hardly consider them to be epitomes of progress.

Honestly, I think this is one of the best arguments against anarchism.

Simply put, it doesn't fucking work.

User avatar
Alevuss
Senator
 
Posts: 3976
Founded: Jan 10, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Alevuss » Sat May 09, 2015 9:10 pm

Neo Telangana wrote:Can the anarchists list any society in all of human history which had no state, and which attained a level of collective security and well-being comparable to societies with stable, centralized states?

Even today, there are still some stateless or near-stateless societies like those in Somalia, Afghanistan, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I would hardly consider them to be epitomes of progress.

Those societies exist as backlash to an unintentional loss of state/government and dividing interests, both within and internationally, in terms of which states should replace the former state/government to varying degrees in varying areas, with none having any real interest in abolishing the state/government.
Last edited by Alevuss on Sat May 09, 2015 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When life gives you lemons. . . You might as well shove 'em where the sun don't shine, because you sure as hell aren't ever going to see any lemonade.-Rob Thurman
Kalaspia-Shimarata wrote:Man, these Austrians sure don't speak English...

Georgism wrote:Those Australians sure don't speak English...

Aelosia wrote:
Neaglia wrote:There's a whole internet full of porn out there! You guys are wasting the fraction of a penny that these shares have entitled you to

But this is NS related. This is a NS related thing. This is a NS player.
アレヴッ —Alevuss

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Sat May 09, 2015 9:11 pm

Where are all the anarchists?

I thought they were prevalent around these parts.
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
Alevuss
Senator
 
Posts: 3976
Founded: Jan 10, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Alevuss » Sat May 09, 2015 9:11 pm

The Orson Empire wrote:
Augarundus wrote:It's 6000 BC, and your tribe has discovered agriculture, and now needs to defend its land from rival warlords. The spear was invented out of necessity as a means of defending yourselves.

Is it possible that wars could be fought without the spear? It was developed for a reason!

Your argument is flawed.

Without concepts such as the division of labor, large agricultural societies would have been unable to function.

And who is to say that knowledge of these elements would be lost if the state or the government were to be abolished? Not both, just one or the other.
When life gives you lemons. . . You might as well shove 'em where the sun don't shine, because you sure as hell aren't ever going to see any lemonade.-Rob Thurman
Kalaspia-Shimarata wrote:Man, these Austrians sure don't speak English...

Georgism wrote:Those Australians sure don't speak English...

Aelosia wrote:
Neaglia wrote:There's a whole internet full of porn out there! You guys are wasting the fraction of a penny that these shares have entitled you to

But this is NS related. This is a NS related thing. This is a NS player.
アレヴッ —Alevuss

User avatar
Lordareon
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 416
Founded: Feb 18, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Lordareon » Sat May 09, 2015 9:12 pm

Nierra wrote:Where are all the anarchists?

I thought they were prevalent around these parts.


There haveing a fit as they cant face the truth.

User avatar
Alevuss
Senator
 
Posts: 3976
Founded: Jan 10, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Alevuss » Sat May 09, 2015 9:13 pm

Nierra wrote:Where are all the anarchists?

I thought they were prevalent around these parts.

Most of them probably live in the US and Canada, where it is midnight right now. Or in Australia, where I think they're at work or in school.

I'm pretty sure those three countries make up a majority of NS.
Last edited by Alevuss on Sat May 09, 2015 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
When life gives you lemons. . . You might as well shove 'em where the sun don't shine, because you sure as hell aren't ever going to see any lemonade.-Rob Thurman
Kalaspia-Shimarata wrote:Man, these Austrians sure don't speak English...

Georgism wrote:Those Australians sure don't speak English...

Aelosia wrote:
Neaglia wrote:There's a whole internet full of porn out there! You guys are wasting the fraction of a penny that these shares have entitled you to

But this is NS related. This is a NS related thing. This is a NS player.
アレヴッ —Alevuss

User avatar
Lordareon
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 416
Founded: Feb 18, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Lordareon » Sat May 09, 2015 9:13 pm

The Orson Empire wrote:
Neo Telangana wrote:Can the anarchists list any society in all of human history which had no state, and which attained a level of collective security and well-being comparable to societies with stable, centralized states?

Even today, there are still some stateless or near-stateless societies like those in Somalia, Afghanistan, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I would hardly consider them to be epitomes of progress.

Honestly, I think this is one of the best arguments against anarchism.

Simply put, it doesn't fucking work.


You sir are great for stating the simple truth.

User avatar
Doperland
Diplomat
 
Posts: 685
Founded: Nov 19, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Doperland » Sat May 09, 2015 9:17 pm

To paraphrase... someone... "No government is perfect when run by
man." Or... something like it. So, governments aren't perfect. Also, with the "anarchy doesn't work" thing, I'd like to point out animals: they're anarchic. Kinda.
Last edited by Doperland on Sat May 09, 2015 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just because of the name Doperland, doesn't mean we're all high, I mean, seriously, man....Quote of the undetermined period of time: "Do or do not, there is no try."-Yoda
I'm awesome. On Steam(and most other things, actually) I'm called Necrocreature. Add me if you're willing to buy me stuff!
For:The colors Black, Red, White and Swedish Metal. Oh, and this:
Yedmnrutika Gavr wrote:da dopeste fiend

Against:You.- I mean, uh...
I am Doperland! I also go by Necrocreature, Dope, and various vulgar insults.

User avatar
Nazi Flower Power
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21328
Founded: Jun 24, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nazi Flower Power » Sat May 09, 2015 9:17 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Nazi Flower Power wrote:I've never met an anarchist that could provide a coherent explanation of how this would work without just devolving into either chaos or a new state.

I think that this used to be a major problem for ancaps, but has become less of an issue as scholarship on polycentric law (especially from David Friedman) has become more publicized. Left-anarchists (I don't like to use that term, because I consider ancap 'left-wing' in an historical context...) are far less often challenged on this issue, but seem to have put in less actual scholarship on post-state governance stability.

I have a fairly long post here in which I try to use realist IR to lay out a stable polycentric legal system. I'd recommend Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman (short explanation here) for an intro to polycentric legal theory more generally.

Basically, I'm not sure why we would think that there are innate monopolistic tendencies in a market for law. We have 'anarchy' (well, competition) in, say, automobiles today, and, all else being equal, there's no reason to think that a market for automobiles will become less competitive with time. I don't want to sound patronizing, but why is it that you think a new state would emerge?


I don't see it working very well. What happens if two people have a dispute and they can't agree which court to go to?

Having more than one agency to enforce the law isn't totally unworkable, but you still need a consensus on what the law is, and I don't see how a you would provide that without a state. I'm still not seeing how privatized law enforcement would be preferable, but possible? Yeah, OK. It's possible, but it doesn't get around the problem of needing a state to decide what the law is.

As for the auto manufacturing analogy, we do not have anarchy in auto manufacturing. There are antitrust laws, labor laws, etc. to prevent the automobile industry from becoming too monopolistic or abusive. Competition between auto makers works because there is a higher authority to regulate it and prevent it from derailing into something destructive.
The Serene and Glorious Reich of Nazi Flower Power has existed for longer than Nazi Germany! Thank you to all the brave men and women of the Allied forces who made this possible!

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Barinive, Cyptopir, Galactic Powers, Godular, Hypron, Kastopoli Salegliari, Keltionialang, Maximum Imperium Rex, The Lone Alliance, The Pilgrims in the Desert

Advertisement

Remove ads