2015 UK Politics Megathread

[Grave_n_idle]

I'm not saying society needs gender segregation although, to be honest, I'm increasingly becoming unsure about that.

People are allowed to freely associate or segregate, and that's not a bad thing. And if it takes voluntarily segregated spaces to make people feel safe, then that's not a monstrous idea.

Also, no. It's not transphobic. Inherently, or otherwise.

If people need to segregate to feel safe, there's a monstrous problem in society.

There IS a monstrous problem in society.

That accepted, how do we address it?

I agree with the idea of conditioning humanity in the long term, but what's the solution for October?

[CoraSpia]

Pretty much bang on. We should look to education and socialization if we're going to have any meaningful effect on gender based violence.

By which token, hopefully the next generation will grow up better than the current one. But that doesn't do anything about this week.

It's a fake scandal. He's not saying women MUST go into a carriage, against their will. (Hell, it's not even HIS idea that he's discussing).

Creating a voluntarily separate area where women CAN go if they want can't really be a bad thing.

Nah, don't like it. Their shouldn't be any segregated areas in our public services, aside from those where nakedness is inherent.

[Olivaero]

Society does not need any more gender segregation voluntary or otherwise. Also the idea is kind of inherently trans-phobic.

I'm not saying society needs gender segregation although, to be honest, I'm increasingly becoming unsure about that.

Your saying it might help your not saying it needs it.

People are allowed to freely associate or segregate, and that's not a bad thing. And if it takes voluntarily segregated spaces to make people feel safe, then that's not a monstrous idea.

There shouldn't be a law against segregating yourself from others but Legal recognition of some kind of right to be away from an entire group of people (Note: an entire group which is men not just a stalker or a rapist, all men) Is definitely not a good idea when you consider how it might be applied to certain other social constructs like race. so I don't really recognize freedom to segregate ones self to be on the same level as the freedom to assosiate which you seem to imply.

Also, no. It's not transphobic. Inherently, or otherwise.

How does a Trans-woman prove she is a woman If she is in the process of transitioning? What do genderqueer people do who are almost certainly are going to be more at risk of violence than women?

[Grave_n_idle]

By which token, hopefully the next generation will grow up better than the current one. But that doesn't do anything about this week.

It's a fake scandal. He's not saying women MUST go into a carriage, against their will. (Hell, it's not even HIS idea that he's discussing).

Creating a voluntarily separate area where women CAN go if they want can't really be a bad thing.

Nah, don't like it. Their shouldn't be any segregated areas in our public services, aside from those where nakedness is inherent.

I think 'should' is a relative term.

Ideally, you're right. And - if we lived in an ideal world - I'd agree.

But we don't live in an ideal world, so a different kind of 'should' applies.

And what's wrong with voluntary segregation? You're arguing for what - compulsory association?

[CoraSpia]

I'm not saying society needs gender segregation although, to be honest, I'm increasingly becoming unsure about that.

Your saying it might help your not saying it needs it.

People are allowed to freely associate or segregate, and that's not a bad thing. And if it takes voluntarily segregated spaces to make people feel safe, then that's not a monstrous idea.

There shouldn't be a law against segregating yourself from others but Legal recognition of some kind of right to be away from an entire group of people (Note: an entire group which is men not just a stalker or a rapist, all men) Is definitely not a good idea when you consider how it might be applied to certain other social constructs like race. so I don't really recognize freedom to segregate ones self to be on the same level as the freedom to assosiate which you seem to imply.

Also, no. It's not transphobic. Inherently, or otherwise.

How does a Trans-woman prove she is a woman If she is in the process of transitioning? What do genderqueer people do who are almost certainly are going to be more at risk of violence than women?

I don't think that women should be able to have a special womens-only place to go, like I said unless their's inherent nudity involved. Like we don't let white people have a whites-only carriage.

[Imperializt Russia]

I'm not saying society needs gender segregation although, to be honest, I'm increasingly becoming unsure about that.

Your saying it might help your not saying it needs it.

People are allowed to freely associate or segregate, and that's not a bad thing. And if it takes voluntarily segregated spaces to make people feel safe, then that's not a monstrous idea.

There shouldn't be a law against segregating yourself from others but Legal recognition of some kind of right to be away from an entire group of people (Note: an entire group which is men not just a stalker or a rapist, all men) Is definitely not a good idea when you consider how it might be applied to certain other social constructs like race. so I don't really recognize freedom to segregate ones self to be on the same level as the freedom to assosiate which you seem to imply.

Also, no. It's not transphobic. Inherently, or otherwise.

How does a Trans-woman prove she is a woman If she is in the process of transitioning? What do genderqueer people do who are almost certainly are going to be more at risk of violence than women?

Men who commit sexual assault are sadly a part of the group known as "men".
We are stuck with that fact.

[The Archregimancy]

basically this idea is ripped straight from japan go look it up if you want to see how it works

And the Middle East.

Women-only carriages are a prominent feature of the metro systems in both Dubai and Cairo.

And apart from Japan and the Middle East, I understand that they're also a feature of the Mumbai train system, where they're particularly welcome due to the pervasive phenomenon of 'Eve-teasing'.

I offer no opinion on introducing the concept to the UK, but they're widespread in Asia.

[CoraSpia]

Your saying it might help your not saying it needs it.

There shouldn't be a law against segregating yourself from others but Legal recognition of some kind of right to be away from an entire group of people (Note: an entire group which is men not just a stalker or a rapist, all men) Is definitely not a good idea when you consider how it might be applied to certain other social constructs like race. so I don't really recognize freedom to segregate ones self to be on the same level as the freedom to assosiate which you seem to imply.



How does a Trans-woman prove she is a woman If she is in the process of transitioning? What do genderqueer people do who are almost certainly are going to be more at risk of violence than women?

Men who commit sexual assault are sadly a part of the group known as "men".
We are stuck with that fact.

rapists =/= all men

[Grave_n_idle]

There shouldn't be a law against segregating yourself from others but Legal recognition of some kind of right to be away from an entire group of people (Note: an entire group which is men not just a stalker or a rapist, all men)

The problem with stalkers and rapists is that they don't clearly signpost themselves.

If they would, sure - let's just isolate them.

Is definitely not a good idea when you consider how it might be applied to certain other social constructs like race. so I don't really recognize freedom to segregate ones self to be on the same level as the freedom to assosiate which you seem to imply.

Then you're objectively wrong. Freedom to associate also inherently requires equal freedom to NOT associate.

How does a Trans-woman prove she is a woman If she is in the process of transitioning?

Why would she have to?

What do genderqueer people do who are almost certainly are going to be more at risk of violence than women?

Again, this is a problem of self-signposting.

[Olivaero]

Your saying it might help your not saying it needs it.

There shouldn't be a law against segregating yourself from others but Legal recognition of some kind of right to be away from an entire group of people (Note: an entire group which is men not just a stalker or a rapist, all men) Is definitely not a good idea when you consider how it might be applied to certain other social constructs like race. so I don't really recognize freedom to segregate ones self to be on the same level as the freedom to assosiate which you seem to imply.



How does a Trans-woman prove she is a woman If she is in the process of transitioning? What do genderqueer people do who are almost certainly are going to be more at risk of violence than women?

Men who commit sexual assault are sadly a part of the group known as "men".
We are stuck with that fact.

And Women who commit sexual assault are part of the group known as "women".

[Grave_n_idle]

Men who commit sexual assault are sadly a part of the group known as "men".
We are stuck with that fact.

rapists =/= all men

And no one is suggesting that the two things are the same thing.

[Grave_n_idle]

I don't think that women should be able to have a special womens-only place to go, like I said unless their's inherent nudity involved. Like we don't let white people have a whites-only carriage.

If 'white people' were being deliberately targeted for some form of assault, I'd say allowing them a voluntary safe space would be an acceptable solution.

[CoraSpia]

I don't think that women should be able to have a special womens-only place to go, like I said unless their's inherent nudity involved. Like we don't let white people have a whites-only carriage.

If 'white people' were being deliberately targeted for some form of assault, I'd say allowing them a voluntary safe space would be an acceptable solution.

which would put up ticket prices for everybody else?

[Imperializt Russia]

Men who commit sexual assault are sadly a part of the group known as "men".
We are stuck with that fact.

And Women who commit sexual assault are part of the group known as "women".

42 sexual assaults were reported as committed against men on British trains in the last year, versus about 642 reported as committed against women. Since this is what was reported on Channel 4 News, I don't have the figures with me. If I had to guess (based on the general pattern of sexual assaults and rapes), I would guess that the overwhelming majority of these assaults were committed by persons of one sex against a person of another. This is a presumption in the lack of data, but it would be in line with other data.

[Imperializt Russia]

If 'white people' were being deliberately targeted for some form of assault, I'd say allowing them a voluntary safe space would be an acceptable solution.

which would put up ticket prices for everybody else?

Would it?

[CoraSpia]

And Women who commit sexual assault are part of the group known as "women".

42 sexual assaults were reported as committed against men on British trains in the last year, versus about 642 reported as committed against women. Since this is what was reported on Channel 4 News, I don't have the figures with me. If I had to guess (based on the general pattern of sexual assaults and rapes), I would guess that the overwhelming majority of these assaults were committed by persons of one sex against a person of another. This is a presumption in the lack of data, but it would be in line with other data.

because the sexual assault statistics are known to be sooooooo accurate.

[Apollinis]

42 sexual assaults were reported as committed against men on British trains in the last year, versus about 642 reported as committed against women. Since this is what was reported on Channel 4 News, I don't have the figures with me. If I had to guess (based on the general pattern of sexual assaults and rapes), I would guess that the overwhelming majority of these assaults were committed by persons of one sex against a person of another. This is a presumption in the lack of data, but it would be in line with other data.

because the sexual assault statistics are known to be sooooooo accurate.

Do you have any better data with which to contest IR's point?

[Olivaero]

There shouldn't be a law against segregating yourself from others but Legal recognition of some kind of right to be away from an entire group of people (Note: an entire group which is men not just a stalker or a rapist, all men)

The problem with stalkers and rapists is that they don't clearly signpost themselves.

If they would, sure - let's just isolate them.

Only if they have previously behaved that way to someone on the train otherwise if they have completed a sentence in a correctional facility they should have the opportunity to reintegrate themselves into society and not be a pariah

Is definitely not a good idea when you consider how it might be applied to certain other social constructs like race. so I don't really recognize freedom to segregate ones self to be on the same level as the freedom to assosiate which you seem to imply.

Then you're objectively wrong. Freedom to associate also inherently requires equal freedom to NOT associate.

Only with specific people not entire groups. Your free to not associate with a single person who you name, like a stalker for instance. Your not free to not associate with other people who have done nothing wrong to you yet simply because you fear them irrationally or rationally.

How does a Trans-woman prove she is a woman If she is in the process of transitioning?

Why would she have to?

To get into this wonderful safe space that she is far more in need of than any Cis woman. Although in retrospect I guess this problem could be cleared up just on their say so I doubt many predators would pretend to be trans to get in anywhere.

What do genderqueer people do who are almost certainly are going to be more at risk of violence than women?

Again, this is a problem of self-signposting.

Uh what? Genderqueer people are probably going to be okay with just saying "I'm Genderqueer" Or Neutrois or Neutral or ~Third gendered but the safe spaces are women only remember so.... what do?

[CoraSpia]

because the sexual assault statistics are known to be sooooooo accurate.

Do you have any better data with which to contest IR's point?

Contesting a dodgy source? No.
However, we never need to have this ridiculous system, because of a tiny number of cases (642?)

[Imperializt Russia]

Do you have any better data with which to contest IR's point?

Contesting a dodgy source? No.
However, we never need to have this ridiculous system, because of a tiny number of cases (642?)

Am I suddenly weird for thinking that two women a day being sexually assaulted on a train is a problem?

[Olivaero]

And Women who commit sexual assault are part of the group known as "women".

42 sexual assaults were reported as committed against men on British trains in the last year, versus about 642 reported as committed against women. Since this is what was reported on Channel 4 News, I don't have the figures with me. If I had to guess (based on the general pattern of sexual assaults and rapes), I would guess that the overwhelming majority of these assaults were committed by persons of one sex against a person of another. This is a presumption in the lack of data, but it would be in line with other data.

Considering all we know about our societies views on masculinity I'd say the bolded is a very important phrase.

[CoraSpia]

Contesting a dodgy source? No.
However, we never need to have this ridiculous system, because of a tiny number of cases (642?)

Am I suddenly weird for thinking that two women a day being sexually assaulted on a train is a problem?

law enforcement is what needs to be done with that, not ridiculous 'voluntary segregation.'

[Olivaero]

Am I suddenly weird for thinking that two women a day being sexually assaulted on a train is a problem?

law enforcement is what needs to be done with that, not ridiculous 'voluntary segregation.'

Yeah it seems to me that the suggested idea (voluntary segregation) would only work if there was a security presence on trains anyway which if there was sans voluntary segregation we would probably see the number of assaults drop in any case.

[Imperializt Russia]

42 sexual assaults were reported as committed against men on British trains in the last year, versus about 642 reported as committed against women. Since this is what was reported on Channel 4 News, I don't have the figures with me. If I had to guess (based on the general pattern of sexual assaults and rapes), I would guess that the overwhelming majority of these assaults were committed by persons of one sex against a person of another. This is a presumption in the lack of data, but it would be in line with other data.

Considering all we know about our societies views on masculinity I'd say the bolded is a very important phrase.

42 of 688 (though apparently the total number of reported sexual assaults was over a thousand so I don't know what is really with these numbers) is six percent. In estimates of rapes in the UK, the estimates go as high as ~80,000 for women and about 12,000 for men, or about 11%
However a sexual assault on a train is obviously a public place so I am not surprised that numbers or proportions would be lower.

Of course, I am comparing the figures of assaults to rapes, so fair enough.

[Geilinor]

I don't think that women should be able to have a special womens-only place to go, like I said unless their's inherent nudity involved. Like we don't let white people have a whites-only carriage.

If 'white people' were being deliberately targeted for some form of assault, I'd say allowing them a voluntary safe space would be an acceptable solution.

That's like saying there should be a carriage for black people.