2015 UK Politics Megathread

by **Vassenor** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:40 am

Belivonia wrote:Immigration. Walk down the street and you will think you are in Islamabad.
600,000 Native-British people have left London because of this, effectively making them the minority.

...There's five million British-born people in Greater London. Out of eight million people living there. 44.89% (3,669,284) of the population listed their ethnicity as "White British" on the 2011 census.

by **Imperializt Russia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:41 am

Atlanticatia wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's proposal for women-only train carriages is quite stupid. Not the way to deal with sexual violence and harassment against women at all.

If you're going to attack something you claim he's proposed (to go so far as to actually term it "a proposal") it would be helpful if you link him saying that and putting forwards this "proposal".

by **The Archregimancy** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:44 am

Belivonia wrote:
Knokkeheist wrote:What are the current issues in London and the UK in general?

I'm going to london on 31 december.

Immigration. Walk down the street and you will think you are in Islamabad.

I showed my wife this; in the last five years she's spent time working in both Islamabad and London.

I think her response is worth quoting in full:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

Really, that comparison richly deserved all of the ridicule to which it'll likely now be subjected.

by **The Matthew Islands** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:56 am

Right, ones a dump full of awful people, corrupt politicians and is just generally shit, the other is in Pakistan.

by **Napkiraly** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:04 am

Vassenor wrote:
Belivonia wrote:Immigration. Walk down the street and you will think you are in Islamabad.
600,000 Native-British people have left London because of this, effectively making them the minority.

...There's five million British-born people in Greater London. Out of eight million people living there. 44.89% (3,669,284) of the population listed their ethnicity as "White British" on the 2011 census.

And a lot of the foreign born are from Europe. 59.8% of the population of London is white since I'm assuming what he's really concerned about with the whole "native" British thing and the comparison to Islamabad. And it depends on where you are. There are places where you'll see mostly white people, mostly black people, mostly Asians, etc.

by **Belivonia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:13 am

Napkiraly wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
...There's five million British-born people in Greater London. Out of eight million people living there. 44.89% (3,669,284) of the population listed their ethnicity as "White British" on the 2011 census.

And a lot of the foreign born are from Europe. 59.8% of the population of London is white since I'm assuming what he's really concerned about with the whole "native" British thing and the comparison to Islamabad. And it depends on where you are. There are places where you'll see mostly white people, mostly black people, mostly Asians, etc.

You are right, because of a phenomenon "White Flight"
all the native-white people leave the community simply because foreign-people, come and arrive without them having any time to adjust and in a few years a community which was 90% white, is now 90% foreign, because of "White Flight"

and i'm going to step onto a completely different platform, but it's not multicultural to slap in millions of immigrants and expect people to adapt, get on with it and then become the minority, which is effectively the case in London. Diversity helps in amount's that people can cope with, but not in unheard of amounts whereas the indigenous people feel alienated and leave.

by **Napkiraly** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:19 am

Belivonia wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:And a lot of the foreign born are from Europe. 59.8% of the population of London is white since I'm assuming what he's really concerned about with the whole "native" British thing and the comparison to Islamabad. And it depends on where you are. There are places where you'll see mostly white people, mostly black people, mostly Asians, etc.

You are right, because of a phenomenon "White Flight"
all the native-white people leave the community simply because foreign-people, come and arrive without them having any time to adjust and in a few years a community which was 90% white, is now 90% foreign, because of "White Flight"

and i'm going to step onto a completely different platform, but it's not multicultural to slap in millions of immigrants and expect people to adapt, get on with it and then become the minority, which is effectively the case in London. Diversity helps in amount's that people can cope with, but not in unheard of amounts whereas the indigenous people feel alienated and leave.

Only if you have a problem with foreigners (which are a minority in London). Plenty of white British people get along with both non-white British people and foreigners. Also white British people are not the minority in London, they are the plurality.

by **Belivonia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:20 am

Napkiraly wrote:
Belivonia wrote:
You are right, because of a phenomenon "White Flight"
all the native-white people leave the community simply because foreign-people, come and arrive without them having any time to adjust and in a few years a community which was 90% white, is now 90% foreign, because of "White Flight"

and i'm going to step onto a completely different platform, but it's not multicultural to slap in millions of immigrants and expect people to adapt, get on with it and then become the minority, which is effectively the case in London. Diversity helps in amount's that people can cope with, but not in unheard of amounts whereas the indigenous people feel alienated and leave.

Only if you have a problem with foreigners (which are a minority in London). Plenty of white British people get along with both non-white British people and foreigners. Also white British people are not the minority in London, they are the plurality.

White British people are a minority in London. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904

by **The Archregimancy** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:22 am

Belivonia wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:And a lot of the foreign born are from Europe. 59.8% of the population of London is white since I'm assuming what he's really concerned about with the whole "native" British thing and the comparison to Islamabad. And it depends on where you are. There are places where you'll see mostly white people, mostly black people, mostly Asians, etc.

You are right, because of a phenomenon "White Flight"
all the native-white people leave the community simply because foreign-people, come and arrive without them having any time to adjust and in a few years a community which was 90% white, is now 90% foreign, because of "White Flight"

and i'm going to step onto a completely different platform, but it's not multicultural to slap in millions of immigrants and expect people to adapt, get on with it and then become the minority, which is effectively the case in London. Diversity helps in amount's that people can cope with, but not in unheard of amounts whereas the indigenous people feel alienated and leave.

I ask you something I asked you a page or two back in the thread:

The Archregimancy wrote:Just out of curiosity, do you think that all of the British expats in the UAE and other Gulf states should wear local dress in order to better respect the local culture? Do you think they should be allowed to set up churches and continue practicing their religion?

After all, white immigrants now significantly outnumber Emiratis in the UAE, who thanks to the influx of foreigners from both Europe and South Asia now make up only 10% of the population in their own country.

And these foreign immigrants refuse to wear local address, insist on opening their own places of worship, and all the street signs are now in both Arabic and English to accommodate this influx of immigrants.

Surely you're also against this degradation of local culture as a result, in part, of white British immigration?

by **Atlanticatia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:24 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Atlanticatia wrote:Jeremy Corbyn's proposal for women-only train carriages is quite stupid. Not the way to deal with sexual violence and harassment against women at all.

If you're going to attack something you claim he's proposed (to go so far as to actually term it "a proposal") it would be helpful if you link him saying that and putting forwards this "proposal".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... emy-corbyn

by **Imperializt Russia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:25 am

Belivonia wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Only if you have a problem with foreigners (which are a minority in London). Plenty of white British people get along with both non-white British people and foreigners. Also white British people are not the minority in London, they are the plurality.

White British people are a minority in London. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904

No group is a majority in London. They are all minority groups.
White British is the largest of these minorities and is therefore the "plurality" group, which may occasionally be referred to off-hand as "majority" because it means functionally the same thing in certain contexts (but not pragmatically).

by **Vassenor** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:25 am

Belivonia wrote:White British people are a minority in London. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904

That article is about two years old.

by **Imperializt Russia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:26 am

Atlanticatia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:If you're going to attack something you claim he's proposed (to go so far as to actually term it "a proposal") it would be helpful if you link him saying that and putting forwards this "proposal".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... emy-corbyn

"Women have problems. One thing we could do to address these problems is this. I will talk to women to see what their ideas are."

At no point has "women-only carriages" become "a proposal".

by **Napkiraly** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:27 am

Belivonia wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Only if you have a problem with foreigners (which are a minority in London). Plenty of white British people get along with both non-white British people and foreigners. Also white British people are not the minority in London, they are the plurality.

White British people are a minority in London. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904

Sorry, racists do tend to get confusing for what they consider acceptable and unacceptable. In my experience many have moved beyond stacking white foreign people against the white British population (because that's the only way you make nice and pure white Britons a "minority" and with that the largest minority) with most of their scorn turned towards Asians and people from the Middle East.

They still are however, the largest individual group.

by **Atlanticatia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:28 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Atlanticatia wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... emy-corbyn

"Women have problems. One thing we could do to address these problems is this. I will talk to women to see what their ideas are."

At no point has "women-only carriages" become "a proposal".

He raised the idea of women-only carriages. It wasn't a formal policy proposal, but, he made a public statement about the idea of it.

by **Imperializt Russia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:29 am

Atlanticatia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:"Women have problems. One thing we could do to address these problems is this. I will talk to women to see what their ideas are."

At no point has "women-only carriages" become "a proposal".

He raised the idea of women-only carriages. It wasn't a formal policy proposal, but, he made a public statement about the idea of it.

Then don't call it a proposal. I would call that misleading language.

by **Atlanticatia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:31 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Atlanticatia wrote:
He raised the idea of women-only carriages. It wasn't a formal policy proposal, but, he made a public statement about the idea of it.

Then don't call it a proposal. I would call that misleading language.

I'd consider it a proposal. He proposed one idea of many. It is not a Jeremy Corbyn policy, but it is a Jeremy Corbyn proposal.

by **The Matthew Islands** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:34 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Belivonia wrote:
You are right, because of a phenomenon "White Flight"
all the native-white people leave the community simply because foreign-people, come and arrive without them having any time to adjust and in a few years a community which was 90% white, is now 90% foreign, because of "White Flight"

and i'm going to step onto a completely different platform, but it's not multicultural to slap in millions of immigrants and expect people to adapt, get on with it and then become the minority, which is effectively the case in London. Diversity helps in amount's that people can cope with, but not in unheard of amounts whereas the indigenous people feel alienated and leave.

I ask you something I asked you a page or two back in the thread:

The Archregimancy wrote:Just out of curiosity, do you think that all of the British expats in the UAE and other Gulf states should wear local dress in order to better respect the local culture? Do you think they should be allowed to set up churches and continue practicing their religion?

After all, white immigrants now significantly outnumber Emiratis in the UAE, who thanks to the influx of foreigners from both Europe and South Asia now make up only 10% of the population in their own country.

And these foreign immigrants refuse to wear local address, insist on opening their own places of worship, and all the street signs are now in both Arabic and English to accommodate this influx of immigrants.

Surely you're also against this degradation of local culture as a result, in part, of white British immigration?

Only if they stopped bringing in money. Then it would probably be off to the blasphemy trials with them.

Or rather to reword it, the UAE likely allows Europeans to do all that because they know they wouldn't get away with treating them like they treat other immigrants from poorer countries that don't have the means to stand up to then. You know, torture, people vanishing, sexual abuse of domestic workers.

by **Knokkeheist** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:41 am

Coraspia wrote:
Knokkeheist wrote:What are the current issues in London and the UK in general?

I'm going to london on 31 december.

beer prices

What is it there , here it is about two euro?

by **The Matthew Islands** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:42 am

Knokkeheist wrote:
Coraspia wrote:beer prices

What is it there , here it is about two euro?

Like 4 pound a pint if your lucky so probably about 5 euros.

Like I said, shithole.

by **Napkiraly** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:46 am

The Matthew Islands wrote:
Knokkeheist wrote:What is it there , here it is about two euro?

Like 4 pound a pint if your lucky so probably about 5 euros.

Like I said, shithole.

And the beer is hit or miss in a lot of pubs these days. I stuck to buying good German or Czech ones even though they're pricier.

by **Knokkeheist** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:51 am

Napkiraly wrote:
The Matthew Islands wrote:Like 4 pound a pint if your lucky so probably about 5 euros.

Like I said, shithole.

And the beer is hit or miss in a lot of pubs these days. I stuck to buying good German or Czech ones even though they're pricier.

Good thing i like arizona iced tea and not beer.

by **Alyakia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:51 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Belivonia wrote:
Immigration. Walk down the street and you will think you are in Islamabad.

I showed my wife this; in the last five years she's spent time working in both Islamabad and London.

I think her response is worth quoting in full:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

Really, that comparison richly deserved all of the ridicule to which it'll likely now be subjected.

i like to think you carefully counted each HA

by **New Catalonia** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:55 am

I read that Jeremy Corbyn has the backing of economists who say his anti-austerity ideas are not crazy but are actually good. I hope that he wins the leadership. Then the UK will have a real alternative to the current situation. I see as well he is republican.

by **The Archregimancy** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:56 am

The Matthew Islands wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
I ask you something I asked you a page or two back in the thread:

After all, white immigrants now significantly outnumber Emiratis in the UAE, who thanks to the influx of foreigners from both Europe and South Asia now make up only 10% of the population in their own country.

And these foreign immigrants refuse to wear local address, insist on opening their own places of worship, and all the street signs are now in both Arabic and English to accommodate this influx of immigrants.

Surely you're also against this degradation of local culture as a result, in part, of white British immigration?

Only if they stopped bringing in money. Then it would probably be off to the blasphemy trials with them.

Or rather to reword it, the UAE likely allows Europeans to do all that because they know they wouldn't get away with treating them like they treat other immigrants from poorer countries that don't have the means to stand up to then. You know, torture, people vanishing, sexual abuse of domestic workers.

I wouldn't dispute for a second that South Asians labourers are often treated very badly in the UAE, but there's a substantial community of middle class and wealthy South Asians - who outnumber both white European immigrants and Emiratis. They have their own supermarkets, their own restaurants, their own places of worship (including at least one prominent Hindu temple), and I can assure you that there are large parts of Dubai - especially Old Dubai - that are considerably more like, say, Islamabad or Mumbai, than London is.

So it's not just about Europeans, and it's a vast oversimplification to think that 'immigrants from poorer countries' in the UAE are all poor Indians and Nepalis who are being forced to work on dangerous construction sites and/or being sexually abused.

And regardless of the above, the percentage of Europeans in Dubai is higher than the percentage of Pakistanis in London, so the basic point stands.

If Belivonia is opposed to what immigration from Islamic countries is allegedly doing to London, then he's presumably equally opposed to what European immigration is doing to places like Dubai; unless he thinks the principle only applies in one direction.

2015 UK Politics Megathread

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