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Communism: still relevant?

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Jaxukuk
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Communism: still relevant?

Postby Jaxukuk » Fri May 01, 2015 4:16 pm

So this year will be the 167th year since The Communist Manifesto was masterminded by our good comrades Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. There is no doubting that communism is rather old.

Marx lived in a world where the industrial revolution had started to change the structure of society: it gave opportunities for the bourgeoisie to manipulate the proletariat, and take advantage of them, crushing them for their own selfish intentions. Marx and Engels saw this as an unsustainable and greedy system and went on to write The Communist Manifesto, which is the main fundamental starting point for all branches of communism. Different people modified The Manifesto to support their opinions, but the fundamental principle of all types of communism is the fact that the working class must rise up and overthrow the capitalists, creating a classless system in which all people are equal.

My question to you, NationStates, is this: in today's modern world, is communism still a viable ideology that makes sense?

When was the last time you heard someone complain about poor working conditions (outside China, of course - oh, the irony...)?

You see, capitalism has evolved to become a fairer, more moral system. Communists still stick to the same old beliefs.
Should the manifesto be changed?
Should communism, as described by Marx, its 'father', be changed?

Perhaps a new form of equality needs to be promoted: one that just opposes consumerism, is committed to reducing pressing issues such as climate change, stands up for equal rights for everybody. I would happily be part of a new enviro-communist society which is anti-consumerist.

What do you think?

tl;dr: The class system isn't as defined as it was. What does this mean for the existing communist ideals?
Last edited by Jaxukuk on Fri May 01, 2015 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Fri May 01, 2015 4:31 pm

I would argue that Marxism was never a viable ideology, and that time hasn't really changed that.
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Bogdanov Vishniac
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Postby Bogdanov Vishniac » Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm

Jaxukuk wrote:When was the last time you heard someone complain about poor working conditions (outside China, of course - oh, the irony...)?


Go down to one of your local bars tonight and listen in on the conversations people are having. I can guarantee you that you will overhear people griping about having to work overtime or psychotic managers or how hard it is to make ends meet. Just because you haven't been paying enough attention does not mean that it isn't happening.

Jaxukuk wrote:You see, capitalism has evolved to become a fairer, more moral system.


Hah. You're funny.

Jaxukuk wrote:Communists still stick to the same old beliefs.


False. Again, just because you're too lazy to actually look up some newer work doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Jaxukuk wrote:tl;dr: The class system isn't as defined as it was.


Hilariously wrong. Income inequality is the highest it's been since the Gilded Age in the 1920's.
Last edited by Bogdanov Vishniac on Fri May 01, 2015 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Anywhere Else But Here
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Postby Anywhere Else But Here » Fri May 01, 2015 4:56 pm

When was the last time I heard someone complain about poor working conditions?
Yesterday in the UK election edition of Question Time, zero hours contracts came up, as did the issue of businesses paying wages below a living wage, effectively meaning the government subsidises businesses' profits with in-work benefits.
Not strictly about communism, but the claim that capitalism is now a fair system where workers are treated well is, I think, weak.

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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri May 01, 2015 4:57 pm

Anarchists will be anarchists. I think any philosophy that promotes the total abolition of the state is ludicrous and misguided.

That being said, Communist thought doesn't hold much modern relevance outside of left anarchist communities.

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The Novakian Empire
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Postby The Novakian Empire » Fri May 01, 2015 4:57 pm

Marxism is pretty much dead,Except in south america. But maoism on the other hand is pretty big in china,and parts of india.
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Atelia
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Postby Atelia » Fri May 01, 2015 5:04 pm

Yes it really is. You just seem hideously misinformed on the modern world.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Fri May 01, 2015 5:05 pm

Diopolis wrote:I would argue that Marxism was never a viable ideology, and that time hasn't really changed that.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri May 01, 2015 5:09 pm

Nope.

The 30 or something socialist nations that have come and went throughout history should tell the communists by now that it ain't happening.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Fri May 01, 2015 6:47 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I would argue that Marxism was never a viable ideology, and that time hasn't really changed that.

Wait, did we just agree on something?
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United Russian Soviet States
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Fri May 01, 2015 9:54 pm

Western society is becoming more communist.
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri May 01, 2015 9:56 pm

United Russian Soviet States wrote:Western society is becoming more communist.

What is communism?

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United Russian Soviet States
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Fri May 01, 2015 9:59 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
United Russian Soviet States wrote:Western society is becoming more communist.

What is communism?

Communism is a leftist political system.
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri May 01, 2015 10:00 pm

United Russian Soviet States wrote:
Kelinfort wrote:What is communism?

Communism is a leftist political system.

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is

A socioeconomic philosophy structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and characterized by the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.
A social, political, and economic ideology and movement that aims to establish this social order.

Now explain how the west is becoming more communist.

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United Russian Soviet States
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Fri May 01, 2015 10:06 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
United Russian Soviet States wrote:Communism is a leftist political system.

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is

A socioeconomic philosophy structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and characterized by the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.
A social, political, and economic ideology and movement that aims to establish this social order.

Now explain how the west is becoming more communist.

Liberalism is becoming popular. It could lead to communism. Hollywood movies tend to also have leftist themes in them. Some even go along with communism.
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri May 01, 2015 10:08 pm

United Russian Soviet States wrote:
Kelinfort wrote:
Now explain how the west is becoming more communist.

Liberalism is becoming popular. It could lead to communism. Hollywood movies tend to also have leftist themes in them. Some even go along with communism.

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is

A socioeconomic philosophy structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and characterized by the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.
A social, political, and economic ideology and movement that aims to establish this social order.

Explain how people are increasingly in favour of abolishing the state and controlling the means of production

Liberalism is not communism. Mao even wrote against it: https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... wv2_03.htm
Last edited by Kelinfort on Fri May 01, 2015 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri May 01, 2015 10:08 pm

Marxism has some contribution that are important, but as a whole, it's a rather outdated ideology. Newer conceptions of socialism (who, admittedly, *do* owe a lot to Marx and Engels' pioneering work in the field) fit the modern world much better.
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Postby Finland SSR » Fri May 01, 2015 10:09 pm

Another socialism-capitalism thread...

I think that I won't try to discuss. I live in a Nordic model country (I assume Finland is one, because it sure feels like it), and thus my opinions on the subject differ vastly from those of people elsewhere.
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United Russian Soviet States
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Fri May 01, 2015 10:11 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
United Russian Soviet States wrote:Liberalism is becoming popular. It could lead to communism. Hollywood movies tend to also have leftist themes in them. Some even go along with communism.

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is

A socioeconomic philosophy structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and characterized by the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.
A social, political, and economic ideology and movement that aims to establish this social order.

Explain how people are increasingly in favour of abolishing the state and controlling the means of production

Liberalism is not communism. Mao even wrote against it: https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... wv2_03.htm

I heard a plurality of young Americans support socialism.
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri May 01, 2015 10:12 pm

United Russian Soviet States wrote:
Kelinfort wrote:
Explain how people are increasingly in favour of abolishing the state and controlling the means of production

Liberalism is not communism. Mao even wrote against it: https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... wv2_03.htm

I heard a plurality of young Americans support socialism.

I heard you're a platypus according a majority of people on this forum.

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is

A socioeconomic philosophy structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and characterized by the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.
A social, political, and economic ideology and movement that aims to establish this social order.


Prove that people are supporting the above idea. I demand evidence for your claim.

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri May 01, 2015 10:12 pm

Finland SSR wrote:Another socialism-capitalism thread...

I think that I won't try to discuss. I live in a Nordic model country (I assume Finland is one, because it sure feels like it), and thus my opinions on the subject differ vastly from those of people elsewhere.

Do they? The Nordic countries are really just capitalist economies with strong social nets. And I usually perceive Finland as more pro-business than the rest.
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Finland SSR
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Postby Finland SSR » Fri May 01, 2015 10:18 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Finland SSR wrote:Another socialism-capitalism thread...

I think that I won't try to discuss. I live in a Nordic model country (I assume Finland is one, because it sure feels like it), and thus my opinions on the subject differ vastly from those of people elsewhere.

Do they? The Nordic countries are really just capitalist economies with strong social nets. And I usually perceive Finland as more pro-business than the rest.

Kind of, I guess.
I also lived in a Baltic Tiger before, and I saw major economic developments and rises in quality of life thanks to changing to capitalism. Both seeing it's effectiveness in economical growth, development and innovation, and at the same time living in a country which blends that in with a great social support system, I can say from my experience that I'm pro-capitalism.

If I lived in a country like China or India, I know my opinions would be far different.
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United Russian Soviet States
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Fri May 01, 2015 10:19 pm

Social democracy is a step towards communism.
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri May 01, 2015 10:20 pm

United Russian Soviet States wrote:Social democracy is a step towards communism.

How? It preserves property rights. In Scandinavia, it is increasingly pro business. I am not a social democrat, but your statement has no factual backing.

Communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)[1][2] is

A socioeconomic philosophy structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and characterized by the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.
A social, political, and economic ideology and movement that aims to establish this social order.


How are people supporting this system more in the West?

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Atomic Utopia
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Postby Atomic Utopia » Fri May 01, 2015 10:23 pm

No, communism (as defined by the communist manifesto, not the bogeyman the republicans refer to) is dead at large. While indeed many if the ideals of communism remain valid such as the statement "from each according to their ability, to each according to their means", it is largely irrelevant as a major power bloc due to the lack of unified vision and effective propaganda. The last bit is a tad unfair because they have nearly a hundred years of stigma to work against, their statements lack meaning. Why eliminate capitalism when you can improve social welfare as moderates such as myself wish to?
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