Australia recalls Indonesian ambassador after execution

[The Greater Aryan Race]

What do people here make of the idea of boycotting Indonesia? I figure it seems about as good a way to put the pressure on as any.

I suggested it earlier, it was ignored.

But I like the idea.

It's a stupid idea that will never achieve anything.

[Donut section]

No never.

The only possible time is the international courts with representatives of the entire planet present with the charges being crimes against humanity.

National Sovereignty m8.

There are some things that should only be allowed when the entirety of humanity is represented.
Executions are one.
I do believe any nation that executes citizens should have a international embargo placed upon them.

[Elke and Elba]

>implying i dont believe in a complete overhaul of the judicial system

1. By your own standards of reasoning, we need to refrain from using the death penalty until it is overhauled.

2. Even then, the fact that our current system has been known to get it wrong goes to show that what people often think is "undeniable and clear evidence" just isn't. There is no system that can realistically hope to avoid that reality altogether.

Not to say there isn't a tradeoff; if it's execution for murder, you're risking killing innocents for the possibility that it may save innocent lives through deterrence, though that would at the very least depends on the execution. But execution for anything short than murder is insanity.

And the point Joko Widodo was making was that the presence of these drugs in Indonesia was killing a lot more than just one person a day.

I don't think people who bring in drugs knowingly, and know these illicit drugs have zero good consequences, and cause more deaths than just one, aren't murderers. They pretty much are serial killers in the eyes of the government for those drugs.

[Novorobo]

We need them for our economy as well. We import to them, they rarely export to us.

That's true, but I can't imagine Indonesia will want to stop eating beef any time soon.

Also, there's other countries Australia could trade with.

[Cyllea]

What do people here make of the idea of boycotting Indonesia? I figure it seems about as good a way to put the pressure on as any.

There isn't much Indonesia sells to Australia. The only way to boycott is to stop taking holidays there.

They make a lot of clothes and such don't they? I see "Made in Indonesia" a fair bit, but maybe its different in Australia.

[Novorobo]

1. By your own standards of reasoning, we need to refrain from using the death penalty until it is overhauled.

2. Even then, the fact that our current system has been known to get it wrong goes to show that what people often think is "undeniable and clear evidence" just isn't. There is no system that can realistically hope to avoid that reality altogether.

Not to say there isn't a tradeoff; if it's execution for murder, you're risking killing innocents for the possibility that it may save innocent lives through deterrence, though that would at the very least depends on the execution. But execution for anything short than murder is insanity.

And the point Joko Widodo was making was that the presence of these drugs in Indonesia was killing a lot more than just one person a day.

I don't think people who bring in drugs knowingly, and know these illicit drugs have zero good consequences, and cause more deaths than just one, aren't murderers. They pretty much are serial killers in the eyes of the government for those drugs.

Okay, so are car manufacturers murderers? A lot of people get killed driving cars.

Giving people something with which they take a risk is not the same as killing them. People choose to do drugs.

EDIT: And who are you to define which consequences to consider "good"? Obviously the people who take these drugs disagree or they wouldn't do them in the first place.

[Donut section]

There isn't much Indonesia sells to Australia. The only way to boycott is to stop taking holidays there.

They make a lot of clothes and such don't they? I see "Made in Indonesia" a fair bit, but maybe its different in Australia.

Indonesia needs australia for fresh fruit and veg. The amount I've treated, I'm a fresh produce fumigator, for Indonesia is staggering.

[Elke and Elba]

This is, was, and always will be an interesting case. When a government is executing your nationals abroad for trumped-up charges, like disturbing the peace, or doing something that they simply could not have done, it is easy to condemn the offending government and shake your heads at them; "Oh, that <insert country here>... Always causing trouble."

But in this case, it is a case of Australian nationals who have been convicted, and probably are associated heavily with, drug crimes.

It's an interesting debate - one country wanting to charge its own criminals vs. another country wanting to deliver its own punishment. I'm not sure if Indonesia would be happy with Australia refusing to release Indonesian criminals, nor would any country. But when you consider that the Bali Nine were ruining the lives of Indonesians, it makes for an interesting ethical pickle.

However, the fate of this Filipina woman is another case which I had not heard of. That shows a possible double standard on the part of Indonesia - that the Australian government would have been lobbying for years to get the criminals absolved of their death sentence, and yet the Philippine government somehow successfully does it for the time being. Nothing bad intended towards the Philippines, just curious.

In my opinion, Australia is right in recalling its ambassador. What has been done is an affront to the Australian government - I am sure that they would have suffered from penalties under their own government rather than having to be executed by a foreign one. Indonesia and Australia have had a rocky relationship - this may just be another middle finger at Australia.

I suspect it's a middle finger to Abbott more so than Australia. He didn't give Indonesia any form for them to graciously step down, and their accusation that the Indonesian judiciary was corrupted and stuff just added fuel to fire. The fact that Chan and Sukumaran kinda was pretty guilty made the entire thing untenable.

On Mary Jane Veloso, the fact that she faced a plight like many expatriate Indonesian workers (worked as a domestic helper, didn't got treated well in the Middle East like some Indonesians on the death row in Saudi) made her a figure that people could sympathise to. Plus the fact that her case was iffy and doubtful as to whether she knowingly brought drugs in or not (vs the Bali Nine cases) made it easier for Widodo to grant reprieve.

[Novorobo]

What do people here make of the idea of boycotting Indonesia? I figure it seems about as good a way to put the pressure on as any.

There isn't much Indonesia sells to Australia. The only way to boycott is to stop taking holidays there.

That doesn't sound too difficult. There's plenty of other tropical destinations out there.

[Elke and Elba]

And the point Joko Widodo was making was that the presence of these drugs in Indonesia was killing a lot more than just one person a day.

I don't think people who bring in drugs knowingly, and know these illicit drugs have zero good consequences, and cause more deaths than just one, aren't murderers. They pretty much are serial killers in the eyes of the government for those drugs.

Okay, so are car manufacturers murderers? A lot of people get killed driving cars.

Giving people something with which they take a risk is not the same as killing them. People choose to do drugs.

EDIT: And who are you to define which consequences to consider "good"? Obviously the people who take these drugs disagree or they wouldn't do them in the first place.

And who are you to define which consequences are bad?

I'm pretty sure cars in itself has benefits. Not that I know of for illicit drugs.

Anyway, you and I know it's all just semantics to obfuscate your pretty weak argument by poisoning the well.

[Cyllea]

There isn't much Indonesia sells to Australia. The only way to boycott is to stop taking holidays there.

That doesn't sound too difficult. There's plenty of other tropical destinations out there.

Breaking news: Nauru's tourism industry increases 1000%.

[Elke and Elba]

There isn't much Indonesia sells to Australia. The only way to boycott is to stop taking holidays there.

That doesn't sound too difficult. There's plenty of other tropical destinations out there.

Yeah, it's easy to boycott.

And Indonesia can easily send the middle finger in Australia's way by closing an eye and letting all the boat people through to Australia to their dismay.

It's easy to claim the moral high ground and refuse to do stuff on those grounds. But don't be shocked and cry out foul play when Indonesia does the same thing back by refusing to cooperate.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

executions because of drugs are a norm in southeast asia.. why the heck are westeners making such a big fuss over this... the law clearly says drug trafficking may result in death penalty.. stupid people... besides we're trying to protect our people from the harm of drugs.. our culture are different from you westeners... we dont want our children to become like you people from the west, disgusting.. we have our culture to protect..

Not in the Philippines it's not. In fact we don't have the death penalty for anything.

[Keyboard Warriors]

That doesn't sound too difficult. There's plenty of other tropical destinations out there.

Yeah, it's easy to boycott.

And Indonesia can easily send the middle finger in Australia's way by closing an eye and letting all the boat people through to Australia to their dismay.

It's easy to claim the moral high ground and refuse to do stuff on those grounds. But don't be shocked and cry out foul play when Indonesia does the same thing back by refusing to cooperate.

Indonesia does that already. And besides, that would be a good result; it's high time we started having more compassion with "boat people" (aka refugees) anyway.

[AiliailiA]

we're not killing people... we are executing them because they commited a crime, a serious crime... the governments of indonesia, malaysia and singapore has enacted this law to prevent and scare away people from bringing drugs into their countries but if failed for some reason

As a fellow Singaporean I'm finding it quite perturbing that people of other cultures can put down us for our laws. They are there for a reason, and they are supported quite largely by the populace. Call us conservative, but I think there are many people who should be called this for practicing even more conservative behaviour rather than us.

I'm quite pleased with the Indonesian government's treatment of the incident - especially with the execution of the Bali Nine to send a strong message; which Abbott didn't help when he was trying to save them BUT acted haughty (which the Indonesian government will never back down if he does so). I'm a bit worried about the execution of the Brazilian and also that of the pending case of Mary Jane Veloso. They don't seemed to have deserved it.

Not all of the Bali Nine were executed, only Chan and Sukumaran. The others were initially sentenced to life imprisonment, reduced to 20 years on appeal, then on the counter-appeal of prosecutors four of them were sentenced to death ... which basically shouldn't be possible, and amounts to punishment for appealing a judgement.

None of those four were executed nor will be executed because without any public legal process their death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment.

Without a public trial, you can understand why people suspect corruption when a death sentence magically disappears.

[Elke and Elba]

As a fellow Singaporean I'm finding it quite perturbing that people of other cultures can put down us for our laws. They are there for a reason, and they are supported quite largely by the populace. Call us conservative, but I think there are many people who should be called this for practicing even more conservative behaviour rather than us.

I'm quite pleased with the Indonesian government's treatment of the incident - especially with the execution of the Bali Nine to send a strong message; which Abbott didn't help when he was trying to save them BUT acted haughty (which the Indonesian government will never back down if he does so). I'm a bit worried about the execution of the Brazilian and also that of the pending case of Mary Jane Veloso. They don't seemed to have deserved it.

Not all of the Bali Nine were executed, only Chan and Sukumaran. The others were initially sentenced to life imprisonment, reduced to 20 years on appeal, then on the counter-appeal of prosecutors four of them were sentenced to death ... which basically shouldn't be possible, and amounts to punishment for appealing a judgement.

None of those four were executed nor will be executed because without any public legal process their death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment.

Without a public trial, you can understand why people suspect corruption when a death sentence magically disappears.

Chan and Sukumaran were already known to be ringleaders of the Bali Nine. I understand where Indonesian prosecutors are coming from because the extent of guilt for Chan and Sukumaran outweighs the rest of the Bali Nine.

As for appeals, I think you are getting the entire idea of appeals wrongly. Appeals aren't a process to reduce sentences, but a process to request a relook at the evidence and the case to decide a sentence, and therefore the new sentencing can go either way. Appeals are not only done by the defendants, but can also be done by prosecutors to get a heavier sentence. There is no punishment insofar for appealing - but whatever comes out is really as to how the evidence are looked at again and how the arguments are stated.

As for the rest of your statement I have no idea how to respond, because I have zero idea where you are coming from, nor talking about. Apologies about that.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

This is, was, and always will be an interesting case. When a government is executing your nationals abroad for trumped-up charges, like disturbing the peace, or doing something that they simply could not have done, it is easy to condemn the offending government and shake your heads at them; "Oh, that <insert country here>... Always causing trouble."

But in this case, it is a case of Australian nationals who have been convicted, and probably are associated heavily with, drug crimes.

It's an interesting debate - one country wanting to charge its own criminals vs. another country wanting to deliver its own punishment. I'm not sure if Indonesia would be happy with Australia refusing to release Indonesian criminals, nor would any country. But when you consider that the Bali Nine were ruining the lives of Indonesians, it makes for an interesting ethical pickle.

However, the fate of this Filipina woman is another case which I had not heard of. That shows a possible double standard on the part of Indonesia - that the Australian government would have been lobbying for years to get the criminals absolved of their death sentence, and yet the Philippine government somehow successfully does it for the time being. Nothing bad intended towards the Philippines, just curious.

In my opinion, Australia is right in recalling its ambassador. What has been done is an affront to the Australian government - I am sure that they would have suffered from penalties under their own government rather than having to be executed by a foreign one. Indonesia and Australia have had a rocky relationship - this may just be another middle finger at Australia.

The case of the Filipina is simple, she was a victim of human trafficking, her luggage which was given to her as a "gift" was lined with heroine, a fact that she would only discover too late. Unlike the two Australians she did not willingly try to smuggle drugs into the Indonesian state, for why would she considering the fact that she is a single mother of two who only went there in the first place because she was promised a job. Therefore with the developments in the Philippines about the surrender of her recruiter, she now has the opportunity to testify against the drug syndicate that tricked her into carrying the drugs, this in turn will decrease the amount of drugs heading into Indonesia as Philippine officials do a crackdown on targets that send the drugs right under the noses of the Indonesian Government, meaning that more Indonesian lives would be saved if she was spared from the Indonesian death penalty, a win-win situation for both Governments in other words.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Yeah, it's easy to boycott.

And Indonesia can easily send the middle finger in Australia's way by closing an eye and letting all the boat people through to Australia to their dismay.

It's easy to claim the moral high ground and refuse to do stuff on those grounds. But don't be shocked and cry out foul play when Indonesia does the same thing back by refusing to cooperate.

Indonesia does that already. And besides, that would be a good result; it's high time we started having more compassion with "boat people" (aka refugees) anyway.

Can't we just adopt the Mediteranean approach to the boat people?
(In other words, let them sink)

[Elke and Elba]

Yeah, it's easy to boycott.

And Indonesia can easily send the middle finger in Australia's way by closing an eye and letting all the boat people through to Australia to their dismay.

It's easy to claim the moral high ground and refuse to do stuff on those grounds. But don't be shocked and cry out foul play when Indonesia does the same thing back by refusing to cooperate.

Indonesia does that already. And besides, that would be a good result; it's high time we started having more compassion with "boat people" (aka refugees) anyway.

Not that Abbott agrees with us that we should have more compassion for boat people.

[Novorobo]

I suspect it's a middle finger to Abbott more so than Australia. He didn't give Indonesia any form for them to graciously step down, and their accusation that the Indonesian judiciary was corrupted and stuff just added fuel to fire.

Big deal. It's obviously true. And if we have to sugar-coat reality to stop a government from killing people we're nothing but appeasers.

Okay, so are car manufacturers murderers? A lot of people get killed driving cars.

Giving people something with which they take a risk is not the same as killing them. People choose to do drugs.

EDIT: And who are you to define which consequences to consider "good"? Obviously the people who take these drugs disagree or they wouldn't do them in the first place.

And who are you to define which consequences are bad?

I'm pretty sure cars in itself has benefits. Not that I know of for illicit drugs.

Anyway, you and I know it's all just semantics to obfuscate your pretty weak argument by poisoning the well.

You're missing the point. To some, the feeling of being on drugs IS a benefit. That the law can set priorities on risks and benefits is one thing, but to compare selling people the very things with which they take these risks to murder is absurd either way.

That doesn't sound too difficult. There's plenty of other tropical destinations out there.

Yeah, it's easy to boycott.

And Indonesia can easily send the middle finger in Australia's way by closing an eye and letting all the boat people through to Australia to their dismay.

It's easy to claim the moral high ground and refuse to do stuff on those grounds. But don't be shocked and cry out foul play when Indonesia does the same thing back by refusing to cooperate.

Then welcome the Indonesians to Australia with open arms.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

1. By your own standards of reasoning, we need to refrain from using the death penalty until it is overhauled.

2. Even then, the fact that our current system has been known to get it wrong goes to show that what people often think is "undeniable and clear evidence" just isn't. There is no system that can realistically hope to avoid that reality altogether.

Not to say there isn't a tradeoff; if it's execution for murder, you're risking killing innocents for the possibility that it may save innocent lives through deterrence, though that would at the very least depends on the execution. But execution for anything short than murder is insanity.

And the point Joko Widodo was making was that the presence of these drugs in Indonesia was killing a lot more than just one person a day.

I don't think people who bring in drugs knowingly, and know these illicit drugs have zero good consequences, and cause more deaths than just one, aren't murderers. They pretty much are serial killers in the eyes of the government for those drugs.

Nonetheless you have to understand that Indonesia does have a double standard in place as the terrorists who perpetrated the Bali bombings of 2002 have been freed by the end of the decade.

[Elke and Elba]

I suspect it's a middle finger to Abbott more so than Australia. He didn't give Indonesia any form for them to graciously step down, and their accusation that the Indonesian judiciary was corrupted and stuff just added fuel to fire.

Big deal. It's obviously true. And if we have to sugar-coat reality to stop a government from killing people we're nothing but appeasers.

And who are you to define which consequences are bad?

I'm pretty sure cars in itself has benefits. Not that I know of for illicit drugs.

Anyway, you and I know it's all just semantics to obfuscate your pretty weak argument by poisoning the well.

You're missing the point. To some, the feeling of being on drugs IS a benefit. That the law can set priorities on risks and benefits is one thing, but to compare selling people the very things with which they take these risks to murder is absurd either way.

Yeah, it's easy to boycott.

And Indonesia can easily send the middle finger in Australia's way by closing an eye and letting all the boat people through to Australia to their dismay.

It's easy to claim the moral high ground and refuse to do stuff on those grounds. But don't be shocked and cry out foul play when Indonesia does the same thing back by refusing to cooperate.

Then welcome the Indonesians to Australia with open arms.

Oh well, you can do things Abbott's way then. Don't be alarmed if no one listens to you and does things the direct opposite, because there was no tact in Abbott's way in doing things.

And please educate yourself on "the boat people" - these are largely (maybe certainly) not Indonesians, but usually people from the Middle East that are escaping poor conditions at home.

[Reddogkeno101]

executions because of drugs are a norm in southeast asia.. why the heck are westeners making such a big fuss over this... the law clearly says drug trafficking may result in death penalty.. stupid people... besides we're trying to protect our people from the harm of drugs.. our culture are different from you westeners... we dont want our children to become like you people from the west, disgusting.. we have our culture to protect..

Except you see, we're not all drug abusers and alcoholics, for you see some of us tolerate that you do that and respect that it's your laws. Notice all the Westerners who come to your country who aren't caught with drugs; that's most of them.

[Elke and Elba]

And the point Joko Widodo was making was that the presence of these drugs in Indonesia was killing a lot more than just one person a day.

I don't think people who bring in drugs knowingly, and know these illicit drugs have zero good consequences, and cause more deaths than just one, aren't murderers. They pretty much are serial killers in the eyes of the government for those drugs.

Nonetheless you have to understand that Indonesia does have a double standard in place as the terrorists who perpetrated the Bali bombings of 2002 have been freed by the end of the decade.

It is one of the mysteries in life, I admit.

Like the controversy of the use of the word "Allah" by Christians in Malaysia, which never occurred and never was considered as any form of controversy in the Middle East (especially in Egypt with their sizeable Coptic population), despite the region being a flashpoint for such issues.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Nonetheless you have to understand that Indonesia does have a double standard in place as the terrorists who perpetrated the Bali bombings of 2002 have been freed by the end of the decade.

It is one of the mysteries in life, I admit.

Like the controversy of the use of the word "Allah" by Christians in Malaysia, which never occurred and never was considered as any form of controversy in the Middle East (especially in Egypt with their sizeable Coptic population), despite the region being a flashpoint for such issues.

Well anyway, for now the general mood by the Filipinos towards the Indonesians is positive since this stance by the Government of Indonesia was adopted.
Australia though... Well they still like the people, but the Government, not so much.