NationStates

Roderia wrote:

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:Only so long as the punishment is not excessive. This seems to be something that you can't comprehend.

Diplomatically impossible. "Um, excuse me Indonesia, we don't trust you to run your nation and we disagree with your capital punishment, so our citizens are gonna run off their own rules in your country, is that okay?" You know what Indonesia is gonna say? They're gonna tell us to fuck off.

No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

Again, there are basic legal principles, including diplomatic law, that covers this. You're ignoring it, and grandstanding, for no reason I can understand.

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:

Roderia wrote:Diplomatically impossible. "Um, excuse me Indonesia, we don't trust you to run your nation and we disagree with your capital punishment, so our citizens are gonna run off their own rules in your country, is that okay?" You know what Indonesia is gonna say? They're gonna tell us to fuck off.

No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

Again, there are basic legal principles, including diplomatic law, that covers this. You're ignoring it, and grandstanding, for no reason I can understand.

I wonder how many people who defends the executions are Indonesians themselves. Because most Indonesians I know of, including me, have feelings ranging from being embarrassed to outright rage.

Norstal wrote:

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

Again, there are basic legal principles, including diplomatic law, that covers this. You're ignoring it, and grandstanding, for no reason I can understand.

I wonder how many people who defends the executions are Indonesians themselves. Because most Indonesians I know of, including me, have feelings ranging from being embarrassed to outright rage.

I couldn't venture a guess, honestly. There are times where humanity disappoints me, and this whole matter has been one of them.

I mean, I'm Japanese, we're fucking barbarous with regards to crime and punishment. Even I think this is ridiculous and naïve.

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:

Roderia wrote:Diplomatically impossible. "Um, excuse me Indonesia, we don't trust you to run your nation and we disagree with your capital punishment, so our citizens are gonna run off their own rules in your country, is that okay?" You know what Indonesia is gonna say? They're gonna tell us to fuck off.

No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

Again, there are basic legal principles, including diplomatic law, that covers this. You're ignoring it, and grandstanding, for no reason I can understand.

Okay. You know what? Fuck it. I am not gonna deal with this. Let's just all go and follow our own rules, regardless of what nation we are actually in, I dare you, go around the world and do that, we'll see how well the extradition treaties work for you. Good day to you sir.

Roderia wrote:

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

Again, there are basic legal principles, including diplomatic law, that covers this. You're ignoring it, and grandstanding, for no reason I can understand.

Okay. You know what? Fuck it. I am not gonna deal with this. Let's just all go and follow our own rules, regardless of what nation we are actually in, I dare you, go around the world and do that, we'll see how well the extradition treaties work for you. Good day to you sir.

They work pretty well, actually.

Mexico refuses to extradite to the US, because of the death penalty.

The French extradite prisoners to the UK, and vice versa, because both have similar punishments for similar offenses.

The entire system works quite well. It's a shame that Indonesia doesn't want to join the other kids in the sand box.

Norstal wrote:

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

Again, there are basic legal principles, including diplomatic law, that covers this. You're ignoring it, and grandstanding, for no reason I can understand.

I wonder how many people who defends the executions are Indonesians themselves. Because most Indonesians I know of, including me, have feelings ranging from being embarrassed to outright rage.

I'm an Australian, I am not even much of a fan of the Indonesian government or anything, I just find it stupid and arrogant that Australia would think that they have the right to try to influence court rulings in Indonesia, and then get pissy when Indonesia goes and tells them to fuck off.

Roderia wrote:

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

Again, there are basic legal principles, including diplomatic law, that covers this. You're ignoring it, and grandstanding, for no reason I can understand.

Okay. You know what? Fuck it. I am not gonna deal with this. Let's just all go and follow our own rules, regardless of what nation we are actually in, I dare you, go around the world and do that, we'll see how well the extradition treaties work for you. Good day to you sir.

Do you know why extradition treaties are good? So that the Saudis don't execute Indonesian migrant workers. But no one can prevent that because the stupid fucking Indonesian government decides to break their extradition treaty too. So no one can save those lives and everything is fucked up.

Had they not done this, Australia and most other powerful nations could've backed up the Indonesian government in extraditing or preventing the execution of those migrant workers. Those workers aren't even breaking any laws. They were falsely accused for murders.

Norstal wrote:

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

Again, there are basic legal principles, including diplomatic law, that covers this. You're ignoring it, and grandstanding, for no reason I can understand.

I wonder how many people who defends the executions are Indonesians themselves. Because most Indonesians I know of, including me, have feelings ranging from being embarrassed to outright rage.

And most Indonesians I know of are either supportive of the executions or really couldn't be half-assed to care about a bunch of convicted drug smugglers.

Oh? Where am I from you say? I'm from Singapore. Obviously you'd know our take on this matter.

Roderia wrote:

Norstal wrote:I wonder how many people who defends the executions are Indonesians themselves. Because most Indonesians I know of, including me, have feelings ranging from being embarrassed to outright rage.

I'm an Australian, I am not even much of a fan of the Indonesian government or anything, I just find it stupid and arrogant that Australia would think that they have the right to try to influence court rulings in Indonesia, and then get pissy when Indonesia goes and tells them to fuck off.

The Indonesians do the exact same thing.

From Wikipedia

Ironically, Indonesia is well noted as "a strong advocate against the death penalty for its citizens abroad."

And the Australian Government never tried to influence the court rulings.

Emile Zola wrote:

Roderia wrote:I'm an Australian, I am not even much of a fan of the Indonesian government or anything, I just find it stupid and arrogant that Australia would think that they have the right to try to influence court rulings in Indonesia, and then get pissy when Indonesia goes and tells them to fuck off.

The Indonesians do the exact same thing.

From Wikipedia

Ironically, Indonesia is well noted as "a strong advocate against the death penalty for its citizens abroad."

And the Australian Government never tried to influence the court rulings.

Exactly. Jesus. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp.

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:

Norstal wrote:I wonder how many people who defends the executions are Indonesians themselves. Because most Indonesians I know of, including me, have feelings ranging from being embarrassed to outright rage.

And most Indonesians I know of are either supportive of the executions or really couldn't be half-assed to care about a bunch of convicted drug smugglers.

Oh? Where am I from you say? I'm from Singapore. Obviously you'd know our take on this matter.

That you guys don't care about the Indonesian government's influence in international politics being damaged for making this stupid decision (see above)?

Yeah, that kinda figures.

Roderia wrote:

Norstal wrote:I wonder how many people who defends the executions are Indonesians themselves. Because most Indonesians I know of, including me, have feelings ranging from being embarrassed to outright rage.

I'm an Australian, I am not even much of a fan of the Indonesian government or anything, I just find it stupid and arrogant that Australia would think that they have the right to try to influence court rulings in Indonesia, and then get pissy when Indonesia goes and tells them to fuck off.

Well, all countries do that. They MUST protect their citizens abroad. Including Indonesia, specially Indonesia. If they protect their citizens from death row for murdering people, why should not Australia try too, for a lesser offense.

Roderia wrote:

Norstal wrote:I wonder how many people who defends the executions are Indonesians themselves. Because most Indonesians I know of, including me, have feelings ranging from being embarrassed to outright rage.

I'm an Australian, I am not even much of a fan of the Indonesian government or anything, I just find it stupid and arrogant that Australia would think that they have the right to try to influence court rulings in Indonesia, and then get pissy when Indonesia goes and tells them to fuck off.

Australia does have that right. Especially when those court rulings are the product of a corrupt justice system structured around the creation of fear. Indonesia does exactly the same thing, and unlike Australia, they make themselves extremely hypocritical in the process.

Norstal wrote:That you guys don't care about the Indonesian government's influence in international politics being damaged for making this stupid decision (see above)?

Yeah, that kinda figures.

What an incredibly naive claim to make. You seriously think that Indonesia is gonna suffer some horrible international isolation just because it shot a couple of convicted individuals?

You think Tony Abbott and the rest of the involved countries are really gonna let this damage their lucrative ties with Indonesia? They'll make a few angry statements, deliver a few angry letters of protest and recall the odd ambassador or two. Then once the public's attention has shifted back to global terrorism/Russia-Ukraine/climate change or the next big thing, they're gonna quietly go back to business as usual. That's how it's always been.

You honestly think ASEAN is gonna shun Indonesia? For whatever reason? Indonesia is entitled to her own laws and the Southeast Asian states are not so stupid as to sacrifice beneficial diplomatic ties for something as minor as this. Don't be so quick to assume Indonesia's gonna end up like the next North Korea just because of this incident, she's too vital as a trading and anti-terrorist partner to offend.

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:

Norstal wrote:That you guys don't care about the Indonesian government's influence in international politics being damaged for making this stupid decision (see above)?

Yeah, that kinda figures.

What an incredibly naive claim to make. You seriously think that Indonesia is gonna suffer some horrible international isolation just because it shot a couple of convicted individuals?

To an extent, yes. Indonesia needs Australia much more so than the other way around.

You think Tony Abbott and the rest of the involved countries are really gonna let this damage their lucrative ties with Indonesia?

Indonesia actually matters very little to us. The only thing we need them for is so we can continue to treat refugees like cattle, which isn't a great loss.

she's too vital as a trading and anti-terrorist partner to offend.

Indonesia is nothing.

Romano-Germanic Empire wrote:I totally agree. Every single one of those prisoners had reformed. When they were arrested they definitely deserved their sentence. However, things change over 10 years and by now they had become upstanding members of society. One of them even took up painting! They definitely didn't deserve to die. On top of that the defendant from Brazil belonged in a mental institution not death row because he clearly had schizophrenia (he kept rambling about angels and whatnot).

While I am against the death penalty for smuggling, or just about everything, what proof is there that these "prisoners had reformed" or have "become upstanding members of society?

Honestly, the only thing I really care about is if these people executed, and others waiting to be, had a fair trial. Yeah, "primitive laws" maybe but it isn't like the government is making laws up as it goes, these people knew the risks. Of course, I also believe Australia has as much right to protest if it wants (though expelling Indonesians as suggested by someone is stupid on multiple levels), with some reasonable limits like not invading the nation, but in the end it is a decision to be made by Indonesia, perhaps with Australian pressure or not.

Though I feel the best way to get change is to use propaganda to convince the Indonesian people that the death penalty, especially for drug smuggling, is "barbaric" enough that the people demand change till the government meets the demands.

Keyboard Warriors wrote:

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:What an incredibly naive claim to make. You seriously think that Indonesia is gonna suffer some horrible international isolation just because it shot a couple of convicted individuals?

To an extent, yes. Indonesia needs Australia much more so than the other way around.

You think Tony Abbott and the rest of the involved countries are really gonna let this damage their lucrative ties with Indonesia?

Indonesia actually matters very little to us. The only thing we need them for is so we can continue to treat refugees like cattle, which isn't a great loss.

she's too vital as a trading and anti-terrorist partner to offend.

Indonesia is nothing.

Indonesia is the 4th most populated nation in the world, is in a very strategic location (having control over all those internal waters), has the 12th 'best' military (according to Global Firepower) and has the 8th largest economy in the world (Purchasing Power). So no, its not 'nothing'.

Cyllea wrote:

Keyboard Warriors wrote:To an extent, yes. Indonesia needs Australia much more so than the other way around.


Indonesia actually matters very little to us. The only thing we need them for is so we can continue to treat refugees like cattle, which isn't a great loss.


Indonesia is nothing.

Indonesia is the 4th most populated nation in the world, is in a very strategic location (having control over all those internal waters), has the 12th 'best' military (according to Global Firepower) and has the 8th largest economy in the world (Purchasing Power). So no, its not 'nothing'.

We have relatively little trade with Indonesia, we have little co-operation with Indonesia, there's nothing we rely on Indonesia for. None of these statistics matter to us either. To Australians, Indonesia is little more than a place we go to holiday occasionally. We have never been worried about offending them because they are of no threat to us whatsoever.

Keyboard Warriors wrote:

Cyllea wrote:
Indonesia is the 4th most populated nation in the world, is in a very strategic location (having control over all those internal waters), has the 12th 'best' military (according to Global Firepower) and has the 8th largest economy in the world (Purchasing Power). So no, its not 'nothing'.

We have relatively little trade with Indonesia, we have little co-operation with Indonesia, there's nothing we rely on Indonesia for. None of these statistics matter to us either. To Australians, Indonesia is little more than a place we go to holiday occasionally. We have never been worried about offending them because they are of no threat to us whatsoever.

"Two-way trade between Australia and Indonesia was worth $14.9 billion in 2011–12, an increase of 8.3% from the previous year. Australian investment in Indonesia totalled $5.4 billion, while Indonesian investment in Australia grew 11% to $454 million over the same period. Austrade estimates that more than 400 Australian companies operate in Indonesia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia% ... investment

Cyllea wrote:

Keyboard Warriors wrote:We have relatively little trade with Indonesia, we have little co-operation with Indonesia, there's nothing we rely on Indonesia for. None of these statistics matter to us either. To Australians, Indonesia is little more than a place we go to holiday occasionally. We have never been worried about offending them because they are of no threat to us whatsoever.

"Two-way trade between Australia and Indonesia was worth $14.9 billion in 2011–12, an increase of 8.3% from the previous year. Australian investment in Indonesia totalled $5.4 billion, while Indonesian investment in Australia grew 11% to $454 million over the same period. Austrade estimates that more than 400 Australian companies operate in Indonesia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia% ... investment

In other words, they're not even in our top ten of largest trading partners. Further, the things which Indonesia does import from Australia, like livestock, are things which aren't available from anywhere else in the region. The things we import from Indonesia can be easily sourced elsewhere.

So Tony Abbott has been saying not to boycott Indonesia because it could make things worse. Why exactly would it make things worse?

Jamzmania wrote:

Winpheala wrote:No, but unless they've killed someone or tried to at least, we should make every effort to save them.

It could be argued that drugs cause violence, ruin lives, and in many cases kill people.

One could say so does killing 200 people yet in Indonesia you'll be out in 10 years and keep your life.

Vitaphone Racing wrote:

The Conez Imperium wrote:
Yeah man, lets invade our neighbor because they have a funny religion.

Invasion is a bit strong, let's at least fuck with their economy and send their social order down the drain. Maybe that will inspire their population to revolt and we might get a decent Indonesian government for a change. At the very least, one not so determined to murder Australians.

Indonesian logic:
Shoot 5 Australian journalists reporting a genocide; get a medal.
Help to blow up a nightclub and kill 202 people, 88 Australians; get five years in prison
Smuggle some druuuuuuuugs; shot to death.
Murder some Australian tourist; lolwut we don't know who did that

We need them for our economy as well. We import to them, they rarely export to us.

The Conez Imperium wrote:

Sebtopiaris wrote:Why can't we just have the Philippines directly north of us? I don't like having drug smugglers executed, even if they were guilty, I don't want some sharia law-embracing 3rd world country dishing out justice to my own people.

Yeah man, lets invade our neighbor because they have a funny religion.

Yes, but it is every Australian who votes for the liberal party or one nation and soon, this lady below's party's trigger word; Sharia Law

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:

Roderia wrote:Diplomatically impossible. "Um, excuse me Indonesia, we don't trust you to run your nation and we disagree with your capital punishment, so our citizens are gonna run off their own rules in your country, is that okay?" You know what Indonesia is gonna say? They're gonna tell us to fuck off.

No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

How friendly are Australia and Indonesia? I'm guessing, not very.

Kenzinia wrote:

The Republic of Pantalleria wrote:Is it true that many of the Indonesians in Indonesia want the Government to spare her?

Well, probably yes.

But Jokowi definitely doesn't, as he insisted, "This is not a cancellation but a postponement." Which probably means she will be executed some time in the future. Let's just hope and pray that that won't happen. This is why I told my parents to not vote for him at the elections, but my parents didn't care.

Sigh... Indonesian problems sound a lot like Philippine problems when it comes to electing leaders...
The "Who cares" approach is taken.

Geilinor wrote:

Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire wrote:No, actually, that's not how extradition treaties work between friendly nations.

How friendly are Australia and Indonesia? I'm guessing, not very.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian ... East_Timor
East Timor happened.