Australia recalls Indonesian ambassador after execution

[Roderia]

He did pay taxes. That is true, but it is you who don't understand the legal principles. Perhaps I should remind you. He was found guilty of drug charges in Indonesia, The Republic of Indonesia. A sovereign nation, outside of Australia and Australian jurisdiction, a nation with their own legal system and their own values, their own punishments and their own rights to administer their nation. What these criminals did was illegal, they got punished. What are you on about 'legal principles' a guilty verdict is the simplest legal principle there is.

Is the same crime punishable by death in Australia?

(The answer there is no.)

Were they in Australia? Once again, you are saying that Australian Law should apply to Australian citizens regardless of where they are.

[Jamzmania]

What? So Australian Citizens should be subjected only to Australian law wherever they go? What fucking fantasy world are all of you people living in? This isn't how the world works, this isn't how the world should work. Trying to defend criminals in another nation, is saying to Indonesia that we don't think that they deserve the right to have their own Justice System.

No, but unless they've killed someone or tried to at least, we should make every effort to save them.

It could be argued that drugs cause violence, ruin lives, and in many cases kill people.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Is the same crime punishable by death in Australia?

(The answer there is no.)

Were they in Australia? Once again, you are saying that Australian Law should apply to Australian citizens regardless of where they are.

In matters of corruption and excessive jurisprudence? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no reason for Australia to put their fingers in their ears and go "La la la" when one of their citizens is going to be given far harsher a sentence than otherwise given. The legal principle is one of common fairness. Indonesia shouldn't expect its citizens to be shot for jaywalking in Australia.

[Roderia]

Were they in Australia? Once again, you are saying that Australian Law should apply to Australian citizens regardless of where they are.

In matters of corruption and excessive jurisprudence? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no reason for Australia to put their fingers in their ears and go "La la la" when one of their citizens is going to be given far harsher a sentence than otherwise given. The legal principle is one of common fairness. Indonesia shouldn't expect its citizens to be shot for jaywalking in Australia.

... What?
What?
So Australians should be permitted to... No. You are trolling.

[Len Hyet]

Were they in Australia? Once again, you are saying that Australian Law should apply to Australian citizens regardless of where they are.

In matters of corruption and excessive jurisprudence? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no reason for Australia to put their fingers in their ears and go "La la la" when one of their citizens is going to be given far harsher a sentence than otherwise given. The legal principle is one of common fairness. Indonesia shouldn't expect its citizens to be shot for jaywalking in Australia.

That sweet sweet strawman.

[Aeyariss]

What's wrong with death sentences?

[Cabana]

If people are so careless as to go to Indonesia and get involved in drugs, then they clearly don't hold their life with much value, they deserved to die.

You know what, each to their own. Good night.

As much as I disagree with his other opinions, he is right for this. In major airports it literally says this:

Everyone (except the bipolar schizo who was unaware of everything) knew what would happen when they trafficked.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

In matters of corruption and excessive jurisprudence? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no reason for Australia to put their fingers in their ears and go "La la la" when one of their citizens is going to be given far harsher a sentence than otherwise given. The legal principle is one of common fairness. Indonesia shouldn't expect its citizens to be shot for jaywalking in Australia.

That sweet sweet strawman.

There's no strawman here. I'm arguing that a death sentence for anything involving drugs is out of scale given the offense. Which is exactly what executing someone for jaywalking is.

[Roderia]

That sweet sweet strawman.

There's no strawman here. I'm arguing that a death sentence for anything involving drugs is out of scale given the offense. Which is exactly what executing someone for jaywalking is.

You are saying that if Australians disagree with laws, that they should just ignore them, because big daddy Government will bail them out? That is stone cold retarded, you can not be serious.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

There's no strawman here. I'm arguing that a death sentence for anything involving drugs is out of scale given the offense. Which is exactly what executing someone for jaywalking is.

You are saying that if Australians disagree with laws, that they should just ignore them, because big daddy Government will bail them out? That is stone cold retarded, you can not be serious.

That's not what I'm saying at all. That's what you're seeing because you're arguing in bad faith.

Re read my sentence, I promise you that the words don't say what you're thinking they do.

[Emile Zola]

You know what, each to their own. Good night.

As much as I disagree with his other opinions, he is right for this. In major airports it literally says this:

Everyone (except the bipolar schizo who was unaware of everything) knew what would happen when they trafficked.

Except the Indonesians are hypocrites. They fight for their citizens not to be executed in other countries while they happily execute foreigners in their own country. Plus the have only recently started executing for the sake of looking tough to their constituents.

[Roderia]

You are saying that if Australians disagree with laws, that they should just ignore them, because big daddy Government will bail them out? That is stone cold retarded, you can not be serious.

That's not what I'm saying at all. That's what you're seeing because you're arguing in bad faith.

Re read my sentence, I promise you that the words don't say what you're thinking they do.

No... They do. Checked it a few times.

Me: "Were they in Australia? Once again, you are saying that Australian Law should apply to Australian citizens regardless of where they are."

You: "In matters of corruption and excessive jurisprudence? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no reason for Australia to put their fingers in their ears and go "La la la" when one of their citizens is going to be given far harsher a sentence than otherwise given. The legal principle is one of common fairness. Indonesia shouldn't expect its citizens to be shot for jaywalking in Australia."

[Norstal]

Not even Indonesians respect the law. I've seen my own share of bribery and corruption. Why should foreigners respect it too?

I come from a country where corruption and bribery are commonplace but that does not relieve anyone from their responsibility to follow the law; systematic corruption is not an excuse.

That's not the point. A government that doesn't follow it's own law is more likely to not prosecute on their own laws. One person from the death row had drugs planted on her, though she was excused afterwards. Who know how many more innocents that were killed?

Defending a government that prosecutes people on laws they don't even follow is just absurd.

[Pineville Community]

Indonesia is such a barbaric country.

[Roderia]

Indonesia is such a barbaric country.

Yep, but they have their own laws. And people in Indonesia need to respect those. Basically, tough shit.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

That's not what I'm saying at all. That's what you're seeing because you're arguing in bad faith.

Re read my sentence, I promise you that the words don't say what you're thinking they do.

No... They do. Checked it a few times.

Me: "Were they in Australia? Once again, you are saying that Australian Law should apply to Australian citizens regardless of where they are."

You: "In matters of corruption and excessive jurisprudence? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no reason for Australia to put their fingers in their ears and go "La la la" when one of their citizens is going to be given far harsher a sentence than otherwise given. The legal principle is one of common fairness. Indonesia shouldn't expect its citizens to be shot for jaywalking in Australia."

Ok, you really don't seem to understand how law works.

There are two phases to a court case.

First, they determine guilt or innocence. In this case, Indonesia determined that citizens of Oz peddled or intended to peddle drugs.
Second, they determine punishment for guilt. In this case, they decided to execute them for a crime which would have held a jail term in almost every other country on Earth, including Australia.

Australia does not want its taxpaying citizens killed by a supposedly friendly government for a crime which should have been a jail term instead. This is really quite simple stuff, and you're managing to conflate all sorts of other things into this for no reason that I can detect.

[Ostroeuropa]

I also oppose the death penalty, and i'm ambivalent about the recall of the ambassador.
Indonesian nationals are no doubt executed for drug crimes too, but the ambassadors were not recalled then.
It seems to be implying that foreign visitors to a country should not be subject to the same rule of aw as the locals, which is obviously silly.
I would have lodged a protest, made clear opposition to the death penalty, asked for mercy/life imprisonment, and been done with it.

[Pineville Community]

Indonesia is such a barbaric country.

Yep, but they have their own laws. And people in Indonesia need to respect those. Basically, tough shit.

Of course. Still, while I know their president is doing this to look tough, I'm disappointed by their lack of diplomatic pragmatism. I'm glad the ambassadors of Brazil, the Netherlands and Australia were recalled.

[Roderia]

No... They do. Checked it a few times.

Me: "Were they in Australia? Once again, you are saying that Australian Law should apply to Australian citizens regardless of where they are."

You: "In matters of corruption and excessive jurisprudence? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no reason for Australia to put their fingers in their ears and go "La la la" when one of their citizens is going to be given far harsher a sentence than otherwise given. The legal principle is one of common fairness. Indonesia shouldn't expect its citizens to be shot for jaywalking in Australia."

Ok, you really don't seem to understand how law works.

There are two phases to a court case.

First, they determine guilt or innocence. In this case, Indonesia determined that citizens of Oz peddled or intended to peddle drugs.
Second, they determine punishment for guilt. In this case, they decided to execute them for a crime which would have held a jail term in almost every other country on Earth, including Australia.

Australia does not want its taxpaying citizens killed by a supposedly friendly government for a crime which should have been a jail term instead. This is really quite simple stuff, and you're managing to conflate all sorts of other things into this for no reason that I can detect.

Says the person who just told me how a court proceeding works for literally no reason. So what if the punishment would be a gaol sentence anywhere else, they weren't anywhere else, they were in Indonesia. And in Indonesia, people get executed for drug offences.

[Farnhamia]

In matters of corruption and excessive jurisprudence? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no reason for Australia to put their fingers in their ears and go "La la la" when one of their citizens is going to be given far harsher a sentence than otherwise given. The legal principle is one of common fairness. Indonesia shouldn't expect its citizens to be shot for jaywalking in Australia.

... What?
What?
So Australians should be permitted to... No. You are trolling.

If you think someone is trolling, report them in the Moderation forum. Please do not just call them "Troll" in the thread.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Ok, you really don't seem to understand how law works.

There are two phases to a court case.

First, they determine guilt or innocence. In this case, Indonesia determined that citizens of Oz peddled or intended to peddle drugs.
Second, they determine punishment for guilt. In this case, they decided to execute them for a crime which would have held a jail term in almost every other country on Earth, including Australia.

Australia does not want its taxpaying citizens killed by a supposedly friendly government for a crime which should have been a jail term instead. This is really quite simple stuff, and you're managing to conflate all sorts of other things into this for no reason that I can detect.

Says the person who just told me how a court proceeding works for literally no reason. So what if the punishment would be a gaol sentence anywhere else, they weren't anywhere else, they were in Indonesia. And in Indonesia, people get executed for drug offences.

And since the crime has a much lower punishment in nearly every other friendly country to Australia, Australia has every responsibility to attempt an extradition back to Australia. Most likely to serve a sentence equivalent to the commission of the crime had it taken place in Australia.

[Roderia]

Says the person who just told me how a court proceeding works for literally no reason. So what if the punishment would be a gaol sentence anywhere else, they weren't anywhere else, they were in Indonesia. And in Indonesia, people get executed for drug offences.

And since the crime has a much lower punishment in nearly every other friendly country to Australia, Australia has every responsibility to attempt an extradition back to Australia. Most likely to serve a sentence equivalent to the commission of the crime had it taken place in Australia.

But it didn't take place in Australia. Do you know how ridiculous what you are proposing is? A person goes and commits a crime in a country, that country punishes them. The end.

[Norstal]

No one has the right to kill those who haven't killed others.

YES THEY FUCKING DO! What should we place sanctions on China, Russia, The United States? They have capital punishment, they would have executed Australians from time to time, it is entirely within Indonesia's right to do this. It is people like you that used to make me hate Australia. People who think that Australian Law and Values magically apply outside of Australia.

Australia have extradition treaties with the U.S. So no, that would never happen in the US.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

And since the crime has a much lower punishment in nearly every other friendly country to Australia, Australia has every responsibility to attempt an extradition back to Australia. Most likely to serve a sentence equivalent to the commission of the crime had it taken place in Australia.

But it didn't take place in Australia. Do you know how ridiculous what you are proposing is? A person goes and commits a crime in a country, that country punishes them. The end.

Only so long as the punishment is not excessive. This seems to be something that you can't comprehend.

[Roderia]

But it didn't take place in Australia. Do you know how ridiculous what you are proposing is? A person goes and commits a crime in a country, that country punishes them. The end.

Only so long as the punishment is not excessive. This seems to be something that you can't comprehend.

Diplomatically impossible. "Um, excuse me Indonesia, we don't trust you to run your nation and we disagree with your capital punishment, so our citizens are gonna run off their own rules in your country, is that okay?" You know what Indonesia is gonna say? They're gonna tell us to fuck off.