Australia recalls Indonesian ambassador after execution

[Sigismond Thalberg and Asterix]

The Australian nationals in question, Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, have already been executed by Indonesian authorities making any further protests on part of the Australian Government futile and unnecessary without mentioning the possible damage to bilateral relations between the countries; the two nations have not been particularly friendly since the espionage scandal caused by The Guardian's revelations in 2013. Australia should look forward; Indonesia is a rising economy with strict laws on the drug trade which these Australians happened to violate willingly and knowledgeably for their own monetary gain. These men although arguably reformed violated Indonesian laws.

[Norstal]

The worst part is the Australian Federal Police tipped off the Indonesian police instead of arresting them here.

"The AFP received a tip off about a suspected heroin importation plot in 2005 but instead of arresting the young Australians, it allowed them to leave the country. It then tipped off Indonesian authorities.

Neil Mitchell said the AFP should have arrested them in Australia.

"They had their seat numbers, they had their passport details, they knew who they were and what they were doing," he explained on 3AW Mornings.

"They could have arrested them all in Australia."

http://m.3aw.com.au/news/australian-fed ... mvtk9.html

This is murder by proxy by the AFP.

As far as I'm concerned Australia should place an embargo on Indonesia and eject all Indonesian citizens living here.

And you don't think Indonesians like me aren't trying to get away from the stupid ass Indonesian government?

I mean, I'm trying to understand your fucking logic. Why the fuck would you send people who WANTS to be Australian to go back?

[Norstal]

The Australian nationals in question, Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, have already been executed by Indonesian authorities making any further protests on part of the Australian Government futile and unnecessary without mentioning the possible damage to bilateral relations between the countries; the two nations have not been particularly friendly since the espionage scandal caused by The Guardian's revelations in 2013. Australia should look forward; Indonesia is a rising economy with strict laws on the drug trade which these Australians happened to violate willingly and knowledgeably for their own monetary gain. These men although arguably reformed violated Indonesian laws.

Not even Indonesians respect the law. I've seen my own share of bribery and corruption. Why should foreigners respect it too?

[Donut section]

The worst part is the Australian Federal Police tipped off the Indonesian police instead of arresting them here.

"The AFP received a tip off about a suspected heroin importation plot in 2005 but instead of arresting the young Australians, it allowed them to leave the country. It then tipped off Indonesian authorities.

Neil Mitchell said the AFP should have arrested them in Australia.

"They had their seat numbers, they had their passport details, they knew who they were and what they were doing," he explained on 3AW Mornings.

"They could have arrested them all in Australia."

http://m.3aw.com.au/news/australian-fed ... mvtk9.html

This is murder by proxy by the AFP.

As far as I'm concerned Australia should place an embargo on Indonesia and eject all Indonesian citizens living here.

And you don't think Indonesians like me aren't trying to get away from the stupid ass Indonesian government?

I mean, I'm trying to understand your fucking logic. Why the fuck would you send people who WANTS to be Australian to go back?

I have nothing against anyone who wants to be Australian. But sending the strongest possible message that executing foreign nationals is not ok.

I see it as a result of protest of the Indonesian governments actions. Not as an australian rejection of people. (I would personally love to see australia become more multicultural for the benefits it provides, as well as how much it pisses off our bogan reclaim Australia inhabitants).

I also would like to see the AFP officers who informed Indonesian officials tried for manslaughter.

[Sigismond Thalberg and Asterix]

The Australian nationals in question, Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, have already been executed by Indonesian authorities making any further protests on part of the Australian Government futile and unnecessary without mentioning the possible damage to bilateral relations between the countries; the two nations have not been particularly friendly since the espionage scandal caused by The Guardian's revelations in 2013. Australia should look forward; Indonesia is a rising economy with strict laws on the drug trade which these Australians happened to violate willingly and knowledgeably for their own monetary gain. These men although arguably reformed violated Indonesian laws.

Not even Indonesians respect the law. I've seen my own share of bribery and corruption. Why should foreigners respect it too?

I come from a country where corruption and bribery are commonplace but that does not relieve anyone from their responsibility to follow the law; systematic corruption is not an excuse.

[Terra Sector Union]

I think lethal injection should have been used because firing squads are a bit harsh but justice was completely served! Indonesia had every right to put these drug smugglers to death. Doesn't Australia realize how much suffering the illegal drug industry has caused? Why should we even care what happened to these smugglers in the first place? This shouldn't even be an issue.

[Azurand]

As far as I'm concerned Australia should place an embargo on Indonesia and eject all Indonesian citizens living here.

Expelling people who have nothing to do with the whole affair will certainly solve our problem. How dare them to come to the southern land of freedom and justice from their shitty third-world state. What do they want? Studying? Working? Bah!

[Schwabenreich]

First off, I'm an Australian, I say everything from an australian perspective in this post.

I don't agree with the death penalty. I do not agree with applying it to drug smugglers. I do agree that they should set their own laws, but with all their state's problems I can't imagine even many of them are happy with it.

I think people are treating this recalled ambassador as a closing of an embassy or something, as breaking ties. Are they implying it's permanent? I was under the impression he is just coming back to speak on it.

I approve of the australian government attempting to use it's influence to pull out two citizens from the death penalty even if I'm a little confused how much attention these two people are receiving just for being citizens when a lot of non-citizens die a lot for a lot more awful reasons. Seems like a nationalism or a case of the media really jumping hard on something. We've been at war with Indonesia twice, but that was in the 40s and 60s, had a little spat over East Timor's annexation but from then on hasn't our relationship been a positive one, at the very least from an economic view point. I kind of hoped we'd have more pull on this.

On the other hand I do respect the position their president is in. Favouring their laws over the influence of foreign powers makes him look better to his people, within internal politics he'd have been compromised by intervening on Australia's behalf. Which could be troublesome for a government that depends on nationalism and presenting the narrative that Indonesia has to be independent. We look at as, they won't reciprocate or help us, they see it as, Indonesia over everyone, right?

I don't think Australia should act further than it has. We involved ourselves throughout the legal process and at this point they've metaphorically slapped us but that was kind of their right to do and any further action would ostracise our relations more which might not be worth it over two citizens who found themselves in Indonesia's bullshit legal system through their own actions.

[Donut section]

As far as I'm concerned Australia should place an embargo on Indonesia and eject all Indonesian citizens living here.

Expelling people who have nothing to do with the whole affair will certainly solve our problem. How dare them to come to the southern land of freedom and justice from their shitty third-world state. What do they want? Studying? Working? Bah!

Go read my more recent post.

[Greed and Death]

I mean, I can understand wanting to deter drug smuggling, but execution is going way too far.

Especially after they went through rehabilitation.
That's a Rick Perry level of unnecessary execution.

Haven't you read The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism, by Emmanuel Goldstein. You must reform a prisoner before you execute him so he dies appreciating just how wrong he was.

[Costa Fierro]

Then I'm sorry for your chronic case of selective empathy.

I don't sympathize with people who commit crimes for greed. I don't think you should either.

[Keyboard Warriors]

Too little too late. Abbot only offered a half-hearted attempt to get them to stop the executions—there should have been way more pressure from the international community.

That couldn't be further from the truth.

[Keyboard Warriors]

Then I'm sorry for your chronic case of selective empathy.

I don't sympathize with people who commit crimes for greed. I don't think you should either.

I'm sympathetic with people who commit crimes of greed, and then spend the next ten years of their lives working to improve the lives of those around them. Seriously, if keeping rehabilitated people locked away in prison is insane, executing rehabilitated people is nothing short of barbaric.

As a New Zealander, if you committed the same crime which they did in your own country, you'd be out by now. Keep that in mind.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

I'm Just happy that Veloso (the Filipina) lives. It's a really big thing in the Phils, her case, and the fact that the Indonesian government is alluding to the possibility of a clemency, will most likely increase the relationship between the Phils and the Indonesians.

[Costa Fierro]

As a New Zealander, if you committed the same crime which they did in your own country, you'd be out by now. Keep that in mind.

And? We have a different attitude to prison sentences here. The fact of the matter is, both committed crimes and both were punished for those crimes.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

As a New Zealander, if you committed the same crime which they did in your own country, you'd be out by now. Keep that in mind.

And? We have a different attitude to prison sentences here. The fact of the matter is, both committed crimes and both were punished for those crimes.

Do you think that a single mother of two would risk being executed for monetary gain?

[Sinica]

Australia has recalled its ambassador from Indonesia after two Australian men were executed for drug smuggling.
Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran were among eight people from several countries executed by firing squad in the early hours of Wednesday on the prison island of Nusakambangan.
Brazil's government also expressed its "deep dismay" at the execution of one of its citizens, Rodrigo Gularte.
But the execution of a Philippine woman was called off at the last minute.
Mary Jane Fiesta Veloso was spared after Philippines officials said a woman she had accused of planting drugs on her was in police custody.

The families of the condemned prisoners paid them final, emotional visits on Tuesday afternoon before the sentences were carried out.
All eight refused offers of blindfolds and were singing together in their final moments, a pastor present at the execution told the Sydney Morning Herald.
Hours after the executions, ambulances left the prison island, taking the prisoners' bodies to their chosen funeral sites in Indonesia or their home countries.
Australia had mounted a lengthy diplomatic campaign to save Chan and Sukumaran, convicted in 2006 of being the ringleaders of a group of Australian heroin traffickers known as the Bali Nine.
Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Tuesday that the executions were "cruel and unnecessary", adding that Chan and Sukumaran had been "fully rehabilitated" while in prison.
"We respect Indonesia's sovereignty but we do deplore what's been done and this cannot be simply business as usual," he said.

This is the first time Australia has recalled an ambassador from Indonesia, and its first-ever recall over the execution of one of its citizens abroad.
Indonesian Attorney General Muhammad Prasetyo defended the executions, saying his country was fighting a "war" on drugs.
Indonesia is an important country to Australia, the BBC's Jon Donnison says, with the two working closely together on asylum seekers and terrorism issues.

Joko Widodo, Indonesia's president, has publicly declared a war on drugs and said he will refuse all clemency applications from convicted drug traffickers - a stance that could prove legally problematic given that the very point of a presidential clemency is to evaluate each individual on a case-by-case basis.
But that will be little comfort to the families of the eight people who were executed.
Indonesia risks souring relations with other nations over its hardline approach, as it has already with Australia, home of two of the smugglers. But Indonesia's new president appears willing to take the risk, even if it means tarnishing his own reputation as a liberal, reform-minded leader.

Brazil's government later issued a statement saying the execution of Gularte marked "a serious event in the relations between the two countries".
Gularte's family had said he had schizophrenia and should not have been on death row.
Gularte was the second Brazilian to be executed for drug smuggling in Indonesia in four months. Marco Archer Cardoso Moreira was killed by firing squad at Nusakambangan in January, prompting Brazil to recall its ambassador.

British drug smuggler Lindsay Sandiford, who is on death row in Indonesia, called the execution of fellow inmates "senseless and brutal". Her lawyer said she could be among the next to be executed.
But there was delight on Monday for the family of Philippine woman Veloso, after her execution was called off at the last minute following a request by the Philippine president.
Her mother described the reprieve as a "miracle".
"We are so happy, I can't believe it. I can't believe my child will live," Celia Veloso told Philippine radio station DZMM.
Sonny Coloma, a spokesman for the Philippine president, told the BBC he was "relieved and thankful" but stressed "the death sentence on her has not been lifted".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32508722
TL;DR: Indonesia has executed an Australian citizen for drug smuggling as part of its 'war on drugs', which led Australia to recall its ambassador to Indonesia.


I think Australia is right to recall its ambassador. I am wholeheartedly opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances, and it is especially barbaric that they were executed for drug smuggling after being in prison for many years and being rehabilitated. It is shameful that these people had to die. Sure, they are criminals, but they served time and that should be enough. The death penalty is not okay in any situation and the war on drugs needs to come to an end.

So, what say ye NSG? Was Australia right to recall its ambassador? Was the death penalty appropriate in this situation, or any situation?

what a whinefest over the death penalty, many nations use it, and u don't see australia recalling its ambassadors from china, saudi Arabia and the US.the death penalty is how Indonesia chooses to handle the situation, and its national sovereignty should be respected.pulling out the ambassador achieves nothing, its a petty display which just undermines relations even further. u read alot about how Indonesia is being so moralist about the drug war, but all i see is western moralists trying to enforce their way of thinking on other nations.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

As abhorrent as the death penalty is, I hope that this at least increases Jokowi's popularity and allows him greater political leverage in attempting to push through the more liberal reforms he's been wanting. I know that there was a scandal regarding one of his cabinet members early on that hurt his popularity.

He's at least being pretty nice with the Filipina, although admittedly so far it's only been a delaying of the execution.

Quite so, she deserves to be freed because she didn't do anything wrong... She was only a victim of human and drug trafficking syndicates... I mean why would a SINGLE BREAD WINNING MOTHER both willingly and knowingly travel with a bunch of drugs to a place she knows has a death penalty for such acts?

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

He's at least being pretty nice with the Filipina, although admittedly so far it's only been a delaying of the execution.

That's bullshit. Why should he demand clemency for her when his government handed down and carried out death sentences against foreigners in his own country?

Either don't execute foreigners in your own country and demand clemency, thus having a moral standpoint from which to make said demands, or execute foreigners and don't demand clemency. Doing what he is doing is basically saying "I don't approve of execution unless it happens to be against foreigners in Indonesia".

But she didn't do any wrong, the only thing she did wrong was not checking her luggage. Otherwise she's just a victim and shouldn't even be in prison... Besides there would be a national outcry not in the Philippines, but in Indonesia because they know all too well the "pickles" international drug and human smuggling groups put on innocent people...

[Macedom]

I like how in Indonesia you can kill 200 people and get 10 years in jail but as soon as you bring drugs in you're a dead man/woman

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

I like how in Indonesia you can kill 200 people and get 10 years in jail but as soon as you bring drugs in you're a dead man/woman

It's Indonesia, what do you expect?

[Saiwania]

The death penalty is not necessarily going too far in response to drug smuggling. China for example, was devastated by the British forcing the Opium trade onto them and the Chinese suffered with the scourge of millions of addicts until the communist regime quite simply executed or relentlessly punished as many addicts and dealers as they could round up and completely eliminated their problem by 1956 by having such zero tolerance for drugs.

How Indonesia enforces their laws and sovereignty ought to be respected.

[Costa Fierro]

And? We have a different attitude to prison sentences here. The fact of the matter is, both committed crimes and both were punished for those crimes.

Do you think that a single mother of two would risk being executed for monetary gain?

Do you think an "appeal to emotion" is going to work on me?

[The Conez Imperium]

Oh wait so they died?

Meh, I do not believe we are in the high ground to be able to do anything

[Schwabenreich]

The death penalty is not necessarily going too far in response to drug smuggling.

It absolutely is, always.

China for example, was devastated by the British forcing the Opium trade onto them

Yes, mostly because of Britain not the opium itself. Britain destroyed their ships forced a punitive peace and the marketing of opium created a commodity that china actually wanted and that Britain could use as leverage with China. China's problems at the time were mostly economic, from going from being a politically isolated nation who had everything it wanted and was just collecting wealth to a nation that depended outside of it's borders for something and was willing to trade what it had to get it. It should be pointed out that within Asia, China was the one Asian country that didn't have a sizable opium market until Britain forced it open, all the other countries, as besieged by european colonialism as they were (with some exceptions like Japan) were doing just fine with Opium circulating amongst their populace.

and the Chinese suffered with the scourge of millions of addicts until the communist regime quite simply executed or relentlessly punished as many addicts and dealers as they could round up and completely eliminated their problem by 1956 by having such zero tolerance for drugs.

China still has an incredible drug problem worse than ever, mainly from a corruption and the burden falling on the poor standpoint. If you're in the police, military or can bribe you could get high on the streets, okay I'm thinking mostly rural china but drug use and consequences have not disappeared from china. When you point out the whole Maoist angle, that leads to a broader point of drugs in Asia, that they are a response to nationalists trying to make their nation look stronger and convince people that the subculture that abuses substances is evil and bringing down the nation. A good communist wanted a china that was free of drugs and if you did drugs you were a bad chinese trying to keep China from becoming a great power again, that's kind of how the communists sold it. It's scapegoating a minority, a comparison would be the 'hippy' culture in USA that was turned into a target (mostly from nothing) by the US government and politicians. On the nationalist front, all the nations in Asia started making these punitive drug measures with the rise of modern nationalism within Asia without exception. They virtually didn't care about various substances until the 1970s and for all the problems of alcohol and tobacco in Asia (it's not just a stereotype that chinese smoke a lot) they don't mobilise against alcohol or tobacco like opium derivatives.

How Indonesia enforces their laws and sovereignty ought to be respected.

It should be tolerated, not respected.