Australia recalls Indonesian ambassador after execution

[Winpheala]

That would be intentionally deceptive, withholding information of a crime taking place in their nation? That is what you want? Well maybe if a mass murderer comes from Indonesia over here, then the Indonesian Authorities may choose not to tip off the Australian Authorities. In addition, The Australian Government has no responsibility to Australian citizens in Indonesia, you know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE OUTSIDE OF AUSTRALIA!

Uhm, that's not true at all.

Australia owes full faith to Australians abroad. Citizenship has both rights and responsibilities for both parties.

And also, we would know about that already.

[Winpheala]

Nope. Still not counted as a violation of sovereignty. It's not interference if you depend on one's help and they later choose to not help you.

A country has a duty to protect it's citizens- by tipping them off, they were essentially them to death. I'm not going to get into the whole drugs and death penalty argument here.

It is an attack on Indonesia's government to place sanctions, it is saying that we do not respect their right to lead their own nation, if Indonesia invaded Papua New Guinea, then we would have a reason to impose sanctions. But simply for executing people that they have every right to kill, it is completely insane.

No one has the right to kill those who haven't killed others.

[Winpheala]

Nope. Still not counted as a violation of sovereignty. It's not interference if you depend on one's help and they later choose to not help you.

Err yes it is. You don't like what your neighbour is doing in his house (whether it's morally right or not is another matter) so you decide to punish him by cutting his electricity supply. You're still interfering in HIS domestic affairs.

And Jesus stop making this out to be a "Poor Indonesia depends on Australia for help". Australia relies on Indonesia's help for a lot things too, such as keeping those boat refugees at bay.

No, the correct analogy is that he's using our generator, and we decide not to let him use it because he killed our dog.

Also, not getting into the refugee topic here.

[Roderia]

It is an attack on Indonesia's government to place sanctions, it is saying that we do not respect their right to lead their own nation, if Indonesia invaded Papua New Guinea, then we would have a reason to impose sanctions. But simply for executing people that they have every right to kill, it is completely insane.

No one has the right to kill those who haven't killed others.

YES THEY FUCKING DO! What should we place sanctions on China, Russia, The United States? They have capital punishment, they would have executed Australians from time to time, it is entirely within Indonesia's right to do this. It is people like you that used to make me hate Australia. People who think that Australian Law and Values magically apply outside of Australia.

[Winpheala]

No one has the right to kill those who haven't killed others.

YES THEY FUCKING DO! What should we place sanctions on China, Russia, The United States? They have capital punishment, they would have executed Australians from time to time, it is entirely within Indonesia's right to do this. It is people like you that used to make me hate Australia. People who think that Australian Law and Values magically apply outside of Australia.

No, we depend on China and America for help. And nobody was executed for drugs either. I can't say about Russia, but I'm reasonably certain there's a reason why no one's helping Ukraine. If it is within Indonesia's rights to kill our citizens, we have a right to respond.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Uhm, that's not true at all.

Australia owes full faith to Australians abroad. Citizenship has both rights and responsibilities for both parties.

What? So Australian Citizens should be subjected only to Australian law wherever they go? What fucking fantasy world are all of you people living in? This isn't how the world works, this isn't how the world should work. Trying to defend criminals in another nation, is saying to Indonesia that we don't think that they deserve the right to have their own Justice System.

Your statement was:

The Australian Government has no responsibility to Australian citizens in Indonesia

Which is what I was responding to. The rest of your hysterical nonsense is another matter.

[Roderia]

YES THEY FUCKING DO! What should we place sanctions on China, Russia, The United States? They have capital punishment, they would have executed Australians from time to time, it is entirely within Indonesia's right to do this. It is people like you that used to make me hate Australia. People who think that Australian Law and Values magically apply outside of Australia.

No, we depend on China and America for help. And nobody was executed for drugs either. I can't say about Russia, but I'm reasonably certain there's a reason why no one's helping Ukraine. If it is within Indonesia's rights to kill our citizens, we have a right to respond.

"Not really. They've done nothing wrong, those criminals had."

[Winpheala]

Uhm, that's not true at all.

Australia owes full faith to Australians abroad. Citizenship has both rights and responsibilities for both parties.

What? So Australian Citizens should be subjected only to Australian law wherever they go? What fucking fantasy world are all of you people living in? This isn't how the world works, this isn't how the world should work. Trying to defend criminals in another nation, is saying to Indonesia that we don't think that they deserve the right to have their own Justice System.

No, but unless they've killed someone or tried to at least, we should make every effort to save them.

[Socialist Tera]

If you break a Indonesian law you are punished in Indonesia, it makes sense, if Australians do not like it, they shouldn't break Indonesian law.

[Winpheala]

No, we depend on China and America for help. And nobody was executed for drugs either. I can't say about Russia, but I'm reasonably certain there's a reason why no one's helping Ukraine. If it is within Indonesia's rights to kill our citizens, we have a right to respond.

"Not really. They've done nothing wrong, those criminals had."

Please reiterate that so I understand.

[Winpheala]

If you break a Indonesian law you are punished in Indonesia, it makes sense, if Australians do not like it, they shouldn't break Indonesian law.

Agreed and disagreed.

[Roderia]

What? So Australian Citizens should be subjected only to Australian law wherever they go? What fucking fantasy world are all of you people living in? This isn't how the world works, this isn't how the world should work. Trying to defend criminals in another nation, is saying to Indonesia that we don't think that they deserve the right to have their own Justice System.

Your statement was:

The Australian Government has no responsibility to Australian citizens in Indonesia

Which is what I was responding to. The rest of your hysterical nonsense is another matter.

But they don't, The Australian Government has no responsibility to waste time and taxpayer dollars to bail out criminals in other countries. When you go to another country, that countries laws apply to you, you have to respect their laws and accept punishment if you break them, not go and bitch to your homeland like a parasite and try to get them to rescue your stupid arse.

[Roderia]

What? So Australian Citizens should be subjected only to Australian law wherever they go? What fucking fantasy world are all of you people living in? This isn't how the world works, this isn't how the world should work. Trying to defend criminals in another nation, is saying to Indonesia that we don't think that they deserve the right to have their own Justice System.

No, but unless they've killed someone or tried to at least, we should make every effort to save them.

It is not our place to intervene in another nation's fucking criminal justice system, we wouldn't want Indonesia to come over and try to run our courts, what gives us the right to try?

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Your statement was:



Which is what I was responding to. The rest of your hysterical nonsense is another matter.

But they don't, The Australian Government has no responsibility to waste time and taxpayer dollars to bail out criminals in other countries. When you go to another country, that countries laws apply to you, you have to respect their laws and accept punishment if you break them, not go and bitch to your homeland like a parasite and try to get them to rescue your stupid arse.

Yes. They do, it's specifically because you pay taxes for common defense and welfare that forces them to attempt to intervene in areas where corrupt legal systems are in place.

Your lack of understanding of basic legal principles does not change simple facts.

[Roderia]

"Not really. They've done nothing wrong, those criminals had."

Please reiterate that so I understand.

Indonesia has done nothing wrong. The people who were executed did. We can't retaliate when the Indonesians have done nothing wrong.
(Don't ask why that last bit was in quotation marks...)

[Cabana]

Indonesia did also shoot a guy with bipolar disorder and paranoid schizophrenia who had no idea what was going on until he was brought to the firing range so

[Roderia]

But they don't, The Australian Government has no responsibility to waste time and taxpayer dollars to bail out criminals in other countries. When you go to another country, that countries laws apply to you, you have to respect their laws and accept punishment if you break them, not go and bitch to your homeland like a parasite and try to get them to rescue your stupid arse.

Yes. They do, it's specifically because you pay taxes for common defense and welfare that forces them to attempt to intervene in areas where corrupt legal systems are in place.

Your lack of understanding of basic legal principles does not change simple facts.

No, I pay taxes to defend Australian interests and to better Australia, not to bail out dumbarses. The execution of these people does not harm Australia. Why would we want to intervene in something that doesn't harm us? Something that we have no right to intervene in. Don't try to patronise me, we have no place to tell the Indonesian government or their courts what to do. That is the sort of thing that America does. And we hate them for it.

[Winpheala]

Please reiterate that so I understand.

Indonesia has done nothing wrong. The people who were executed did. We can't retaliate when the Indonesians have done nothing wrong.
(Don't ask why that last bit was in quotation marks...)

Legally, true. I'm just saying that we should have done more to save their lives- you only get one after all.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Yes. They do, it's specifically because you pay taxes for common defense and welfare that forces them to attempt to intervene in areas where corrupt legal systems are in place.

Your lack of understanding of basic legal principles does not change simple facts.

No, I pay taxes to defend Australian interests and to better Australia, not to bail out dumbarses. The execution of these people does not harm Australia. Why would we want to intervene in something that doesn't harm us? Something that we have no right to intervene in. Don't try to patronise me, we have no place to tell the Indonesian government or their courts what to do. That is the sort of thing that America does. And we hate them for it.

Again, you don't understand the legal principles behind this. The person who's being executed in Indonesia also paid taxes, and has as much right to common defense as you do.

[Roderia]

Indonesia has done nothing wrong. The people who were executed did. We can't retaliate when the Indonesians have done nothing wrong.
(Don't ask why that last bit was in quotation marks...)

Legally, true. I'm just saying that we should have done more to save their lives- you only get one after all.

If people are so careless as to go to Indonesia and get involved in drugs, then they clearly don't hold their life with much value, they deserved to die.

[Winpheala]

Yes. They do, it's specifically because you pay taxes for common defense and welfare that forces them to attempt to intervene in areas where corrupt legal systems are in place.

Your lack of understanding of basic legal principles does not change simple facts.

No, I pay taxes to defend Australian interests and to better Australia, not to bail out dumbarses. The execution of these people does not harm Australia. Why would we want to intervene in something that doesn't harm us? Something that we have no right to intervene in. Don't try to patronise me, we have no place to tell the Indonesian government or their courts what to do. That is the sort of thing that America does. And we hate them for it.

One for all, all for one.

[Winpheala]

Legally, true. I'm just saying that we should have done more to save their lives- you only get one after all.

If people are so careless as to go to Indonesia and get involved in drugs, then they clearly don't hold their life with much value, they deserved to die.

You know what, each to their own. Good night.

[Roderia]

No, I pay taxes to defend Australian interests and to better Australia, not to bail out dumbarses. The execution of these people does not harm Australia. Why would we want to intervene in something that doesn't harm us? Something that we have no right to intervene in. Don't try to patronise me, we have no place to tell the Indonesian government or their courts what to do. That is the sort of thing that America does. And we hate them for it.

Again, you don't understand the legal principles behind this. The person who's being executed in Indonesia also paid taxes, and has as much right to common defense as you do.

He did pay taxes. That is true, but it is you who don't understand the legal principles. Perhaps I should remind you. He was found guilty of drug charges in Indonesia, The Republic of Indonesia. A sovereign nation, outside of Australia and Australian jurisdiction, a nation with their own legal system and their own values, their own punishments and their own rights to administer their nation. What these criminals did was illegal, they got punished. What are you on about 'legal principles' a guilty verdict is the simplest legal principle there is.

[Emile Zola]

If you break a Indonesian law you are punished in Indonesia, it makes sense, if Australians do not like it, they shouldn't break Indonesian law.

Except...

Indonesia hasn't been executing prisoners for many years and has only recently begun under a new President who is considered weak. This is him playing to the wingnuts in his country these executions are for political expediency.

There is evidence that the judges in the two Australians trial asked for bribes which constitutes a mistrial and the office of the Attorney General of Indonesia put pressure on the judges to sentence them to death when the normal sentence is twenty years.

So if you break Indonesian law make sure you've got the funds to bribe your way out.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Again, you don't understand the legal principles behind this. The person who's being executed in Indonesia also paid taxes, and has as much right to common defense as you do.

He did pay taxes. That is true, but it is you who don't understand the legal principles. Perhaps I should remind you. He was found guilty of drug charges in Indonesia, The Republic of Indonesia. A sovereign nation, outside of Australia and Australian jurisdiction, a nation with their own legal system and their own values, their own punishments and their own rights to administer their nation. What these criminals did was illegal, they got punished. What are you on about 'legal principles' a guilty verdict is the simplest legal principle there is.

Is the same crime punishable by death in Australia?

(The answer there is no.)