Christianity and Libertarianism?

[Grand Calvert]

You obviously don't understand the historical context of Romans 13. Paul is saying that that Christians should obey all of Romes laws so that Rome wouldn't be able to find a legal reason to persecute the Christians.

Even if that were true, you should apply it today and pay your taxes.

But that's not the point of the verse.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Make sure to listen to my arguments, because what you're criticizing isn't my actual position. I want the government to stop forcing the workers of the various industries to obey and give a huge cut of their profits to a class of elites. I want the corporations to be controlled by their workers.
In group projects, you're forced to be in a particular group. But in workplace democracy, you're not forced in name or fact to participate in a particular company. If groups at school were like workplace democracy and the other people weren't working hard, you could leave that group, join a different group where people worked harder, and get a better result. You're also not competing for grades in workplace democracy because you're not being paid wages determined by a boss class, you're competing for results because you get to keep whatever you produce.

Socialism means that you benefit when those around you do. By helping others you help yourself. You still get rewarded for your labour, and you have protections should anything ever happen to you. Productivity and efficiency is promoted rather than profitability. What benefits everyone is promoted over what only benefits a few but hurts society at large.

Socialism is ownership and democratic administration by the workers. This can be done with all of society owning and administrating the means of production through councils or through a market structure. Markets and socialism are hardly incompatible.

Well its like society at large is the group project in socialism. Everyone makes the same amount of money regardless of the job they do, or the work they put in. Its the lazy mans paradise and the hard working mans nightmare.

Right, in which case you don't want us to have a functioning government.

Taxation should be voluntary if people don't want to pay for government then obviously people don't want a government.

But everyone doesn't make the same amount of money.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Even if that were true, you should apply it today and pay your taxes.

But that's not the point of the verse.

Actually, yes it fucking is. It blatantly. Fucking. Says. Pay. Your. Taxes.

[Grand Calvert]

You obviously don't understand the historical context of Romans 13. Paul is saying that that Christians should obey all of Romes laws so that Rome wouldn't be able to find a legal reason to persecute the Christians.

Are you actually saying we need to interpret the Bible? Because that's what you're doing. You're saying "It doesn't mean what it says, plainly and openly!" It flat-out says, obey the government. Pay your taxes. Don't rebel. Don't disobey laws. Or the government can use its divinely-ordained powers to punish you.

No. Just because I take context into account, doesn't mean I don't believe in the Bible. You simply just cherry pick verses without trying to understand the historical context.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Even if that were true, you should apply it today and pay your taxes.

But that's not the point of the verse.

The verse does show that there exist times and places in which paying your taxes is the right thing to do.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Are you actually saying we need to interpret the Bible? Because that's what you're doing. You're saying "It doesn't mean what it says, plainly and openly!" It flat-out says, obey the government. Pay your taxes. Don't rebel. Don't disobey laws. Or the government can use its divinely-ordained powers to punish you.

No. Just because I take context into account, doesn't mean I don't believe in the Bible. You simply just cherry pick verses without trying to understand the historical context.

I "cherry-picked" an entire goddamned chapter.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

But that's not the point of the verse.

The verse does show that there exist times and places in which paying your taxes is the right thing to do.

Those times and places being, if you live under a government.

[Grand Calvert]

But that's not the point of the verse.

Actually, yes it fucking is. It blatantly. Fucking. Says. Pay. Your. Taxes.

No. It's saying that the persecuted Christians should pay all their taxes so that Rome couldn't say, "Hey, they broke our laws, they're in the wrong, not us!" It's not a standard to be applied to everything.

Context. Learn it.

[Liberusy]

But everyone doesn't make the same amount of money.

Obviously we have different dictionaries then. What is your definition of socialism?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

But everyone doesn't make the same amount of money.

Obviously we have different dictionaries then. What is your definition of socialism?

Pretty sure it's democracy in the workplace.

[Mysterious Stranger]

But everyone doesn't make the same amount of money.

Obviously we have different dictionaries then. What is your definition of socialism?

Workers' ownership of the means of production. What's yours?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Actually, yes it fucking is. It blatantly. Fucking. Says. Pay. Your. Taxes.

No. It's saying that the persecuted Christians should pay all their taxes so that Rome couldn't say, "Hey, they broke our laws, they're in the wrong, not us!" It's not a standard to be applied to everything.

Context. Learn it.

I want to fucking bash my head into a wall.

There's context to the Ten Commandments, too. God only gave that to the people following Moses. Not to all us white Gentiles, we didn't even know it was happening at the time.

Context, learn it.

[Liberusy]

But that's not the point of the verse.

Actually, yes it fucking is. It blatantly. Fucking. Says. Pay. Your. Taxes.

No. Just because I take context into account, doesn't mean I don't believe in the Bible. You simply just cherry pick verses without trying to understand the historical context.

I "cherry-picked" an entire goddamned chapter.

Could you be a little more civilized please we are just having an open discussion, no need to get so worked up. I am 100% in favor of free speech, but you are getting to be a little much, just relax a little.

[Conserative Morality]

No. It's saying that the persecuted Christians should pay all their taxes so that Rome couldn't say, "Hey, they broke our laws, they're in the wrong, not us!" It's not a standard to be applied to everything.

Context. Learn it.

Which is an implicit admission that there is validity to the claim that not paying taxes puts someone in the wrong.

[Grand Calvert]

No. It's saying that the persecuted Christians should pay all their taxes so that Rome couldn't say, "Hey, they broke our laws, they're in the wrong, not us!" It's not a standard to be applied to everything.

Context. Learn it.

I want to fucking bash my head into a wall.

There's context to the Ten Commandments, too. God only gave that to the people following Moses. Not to all us white Gentiles, we didn't even know it was happening at the time.

Context, learn it.

Nope. Ten Commandments is God's Moral Law. Never changes.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Actually, yes it fucking is. It blatantly. Fucking. Says. Pay. Your. Taxes.

I "cherry-picked" an entire goddamned chapter.

Could you be a little more civilized please we are just having an open discussion, no need to get so worked up. I am 100% in favor of free speech, but you are getting to be a little much, just relax a little.

There are no fucking forum rules disallowing me from using a few damn sentence-enhancers here and there and shit.

Unless I'm fucking calling you one of them, of course.

EDIT: And it is becoming so difficult to get my point across to you people that it is extremely hard to keep any sort of composure.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I want to fucking bash my head into a wall.

There's context to the Ten Commandments, too. God only gave that to the people following Moses. Not to all us white Gentiles, we didn't even know it was happening at the time.

Context, learn it.

Nope. Ten Commandments is God's Moral Law. Never changes.

Paul was an Apostle and inspired by God when he wrote his letters, and God can't be wrong.

[Grand Calvert]

Nope. Ten Commandments is God's Moral Law. Never changes.

Paul was an Apostle and inspired by God when he wrote his letters, and God can't be wrong.

Um, that's my standpoint, not yours. Paul isn't wrong just because you misinterpreted what he said.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Paul was an Apostle and inspired by God when he wrote his letters, and God can't be wrong.

Um, that's my standpoint, not yours.

Exactly.

[Conserative Morality]

Nope. Ten Commandments is God's Moral Law. Never changes.

There may be a few Jews who want to talk to you.

[Liberusy]

No. It's saying that the persecuted Christians should pay all their taxes so that Rome couldn't say, "Hey, they broke our laws, they're in the wrong, not us!" It's not a standard to be applied to everything.

Context. Learn it.

I want to fucking bash my head into a wall.

There's context to the Ten Commandments, too. God only gave that to the people following Moses. Not to all us white Gentiles, we didn't even know it was happening at the time.

Context, learn it.

Well actually Jesus clarified the 10 Commandments
1. Love the Lord your God with all your with all your heart, mind, soul.
2. Love your neighbor as yourslef.
Context is indeed good to know.

Obviously we have different dictionaries then. What is your definition of socialism?

Workers' ownership of the means of production. What's yours?

By Merriam-Webster
" a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done"

[Mysterious Stranger]

No. It's saying that the persecuted Christians should pay all their taxes so that Rome couldn't say, "Hey, they broke our laws, they're in the wrong, not us!" It's not a standard to be applied to everything.

Context. Learn it.

I want to fucking bash my head into a wall.

There's context to the Ten Commandments, too. God only gave that to the people following Moses. Not to all us white Gentiles, we didn't even know it was happening at the time.

Context, learn it.

Yeah, correct. They were part of the law and foundational to the old covenant. Christians are under the new covenant, so they're not binding to us. That is actually a perfect example of Calvert's point.

[Wolfmanne]

13Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Well OP, there we have it. God supports big government.

In all honesty, it makes sense, seeing that libertarianism wants to bring us back to the early 20th century, back to the days of laissez-faire, where industrialists were able to role over carpets over the poor and crush them with low wages and bankrupt the world by reintroducing the gold standard.

Jesus wasn't an economist and pretty much all libertarians are poor ones who seem content with ignoring the success of the European welfare states which keep people out of poverty and fair, but not too excessive, regulation of businesses. Britain is very neoliberal yet maintains a NHS and a welfare state; OP, if you support economic sensibility and consider yourself a faithful Christian man, then why do you support a system that fundamentally preaches selfishness?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I want to fucking bash my head into a wall.

There's context to the Ten Commandments, too. God only gave that to the people following Moses. Not to all us white Gentiles, we didn't even know it was happening at the time.

Context, learn it.

Yeah, correct. They were part of the law and foundational to the old covenant. Christians are under the new covenant, so they're not binding to us. That is actually a perfect example of Calvert's point.

Calvert just said the Ten Commandments never change.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

13Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Well OP, there we have it. God supports big government.

In all honesty, it makes sense, seeing that libertarianism wants to bring us back to the early 20th century, back to the days of laissez-faire, where industrialists were able to role over carpets over the poor and crush them with low wages and bankrupt the world by reintroducing the gold standard.

Jesus wasn't an economist and pretty much all libertarians are poor ones who seem content with ignoring the success of the European welfare states which keep people out of poverty and fair, but not too excessive, regulation of businesses. Britain is very neoliberal yet maintains a NHS and a welfare state; OP, if you support economic sensibility and consider yourself a faithful Christian man, then why do you support a system that fundamentally preaches selfishness?

Already tried. I'm beginning to think it's a lost cause.