Christianity and Libertarianism?

[Geilinor]

I do know that Leo Tolstoy was a devout Christian and anarchist (left-libertarian).

[Dragonir]

I do know that Leo Tolstoy was a devout Christian and anarchist (left-libertarian).

Libertarians and anarchists arent the same we have an entirely different ideology based on an efficient non intrusive government

[Geilinor]

I do know that Leo Tolstoy was a devout Christian and anarchist (left-libertarian).

Libertarians and anarchists arent the same we have an entirely different ideology based on an efficient non intrusive government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Libertarian_socialism

Libertarian socialism (sometimes called social anarchism,[110][111] left-libertarianism[112][113] and socialist libertarianism[114]) is a group of political philosophies within the socialist movement that reject the view of socialism as state ownership or command of the means of production[115] within a more general criticism of the state form itself[116][117] as well as of wage labour relationships within the workplace.[118] Instead it emphasizes workers' self-management of the workplace[119] and decentralized structures of political government[120] asserting that a society based on freedom and equality can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite.[121] Libertarian socialists generally place their hopes in decentralized means of direct democracy and federal or confederal associations[122] such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions, and workers' councils.[123] All of this is generally done within a general call for libertarian and voluntary human relationships[124] through the identification, criticism, and practical dismantling of illegitimate authority in all aspects of life.[125][126][127][128][129][130]

Past and present political philosophies and movements commonly described as libertarian socialist include anarchism (especially anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism,[131] and mutualism[132]) as well as autonomism, communalism, participism, revolutionary syndicalism, and libertarian Marxist philosophies such as council communism and Luxemburgism,[133][134] as well as some versions of utopian socialism[135] and individualist anarchism.[136][137][138][139]

[Caninope]

Libertarianism is historically an anti-capitalist and anti-statist ideology. It supports social property and personal property, but not private property. The first man to use the term to describe his political ideology was a communist. There are property rights, in the sense that everyone is entitled to ownership of the means of production. The manner in which it is admininistrated (communism, collectivism, mutualism, gift economics, syndicalism, etc.) can vary, but all Liberyarians are socialist. You are thinking of classical liberalism.

But Libertarianism is individualist, no?

Which puts it at odds with Christianity.

I don't believe you can honestly argue Christianity is compatible with individualism when Christianity argues for a natural hierarchy and order (hence our emphasis on the kingship of God and the sovereignty of God) and Christianity teaches the denial of the self.

[Genivaria]

But Libertarianism is individualist, no?

Which puts it at odds with Christianity.

I don't believe you can honestly argue Christianity is compatible with individualism when Christianity argues for a natural hierarchy and order (hence our emphasis on the kingship of God and the sovereignty of God) and Christianity teaches the denial of the self.

That sounds like Marxist commie talk, take him away!!

[Caninope]

Which puts it at odds with Christianity.

I don't believe you can honestly argue Christianity is compatible with individualism when Christianity argues for a natural hierarchy and order (hence our emphasis on the kingship of God and the sovereignty of God) and Christianity teaches the denial of the self.

That sounds like Marxist commie talk, take him away!!

I'm 2trad4u

[Jefferson and Madison]

But Libertarianism is individualist, no?

Which puts it at odds with Christianity.

I don't believe you can honestly argue Christianity is compatible with individualism when Christianity argues for a natural hierarchy and order (hence our emphasis on the kingship of God and the sovereignty of God) and Christianity teaches the denial of the self.

Libertarianism (classical liberalism to be more specific) is simply about allowing individuals maximum choice with limited government constraints. If a Christian does not support implementing his/her beliefs into policy, there is no contradiction of the philosophy.

[Geilinor]

Which puts it at odds with Christianity.

I don't believe you can honestly argue Christianity is compatible with individualism when Christianity argues for a natural hierarchy and order (hence our emphasis on the kingship of God and the sovereignty of God) and Christianity teaches the denial of the self.

Libertarianism (classical liberalism to be more specific) is simply about allowing individuals maximum choice with limited government constraints. If a Christian does not support implementing his/her beliefs into policy, there is no contradiction of the philosophy.

This^. If an individual or group of people chose an ordered Christianity, they could live that way.

[Rednekylvania]

But Libertarianism is individualist, no?

Which puts it at odds with Christianity.

I don't believe you can honestly argue Christianity is compatible with individualism when Christianity argues for a natural hierarchy and order (hence our emphasis on the kingship of God and the sovereignty of God) and Christianity teaches the denial of the self.

Yet we are judged individually.
Recognizing the supremacy of God, and determining which people deserve soveriegnty over us are two different things. None of us are more or less accountable to God than another, so how can there be a "natural" heirarchy amongst humanity.
Deemphasizing your ego does not negate acting upon your own self-interest. Though you may excercise some virtue as a slave to others, it is a compromising, and not the most ideal position from which to pursue ones redemption and salvation.

[Caninope]

Which puts it at odds with Christianity.

I don't believe you can honestly argue Christianity is compatible with individualism when Christianity argues for a natural hierarchy and order (hence our emphasis on the kingship of God and the sovereignty of God) and Christianity teaches the denial of the self.

Libertarianism (classical liberalism to be more specific) is simply about allowing individuals maximum choice with limited government constraints. If a Christian does not support implementing his/her beliefs into policy, there is no contradiction of the philosophy.

The problem being that libertarianism is fundamentally found on the idea that choice is good and the idea that the individual is important.

These are relatively new ideas in the history of Christianity and still largely confined to mainline American Protestantism. Furthermore, libertarianism is often argued to implicitly endorse certain actions that Christians often find problematic.

[Geilinor]

Libertarianism (classical liberalism to be more specific) is simply about allowing individuals maximum choice with limited government constraints. If a Christian does not support implementing his/her beliefs into policy, there is no contradiction of the philosophy.

The problem being that libertarianism is fundamentally found on the idea that choice is good and the idea that the individual is important.

In the sense that people have the freedom to choose any sect of Christianity or none, doesn't it conform with Christianity?

[Rednekylvania]

Libertarianism (classical liberalism to be more specific) is simply about allowing individuals maximum choice with limited government constraints. If a Christian does not support implementing his/her beliefs into policy, there is no contradiction of the philosophy.

The problem being that libertarianism is fundamentally found on the idea that choice is good and the idea that the individual is important.

These are relatively new ideas in the history of Christianity and still largely confined to mainline American Protestantism. Furthermore, libertarianism is often argued to implicitly endorse certain actions that Christians often find problematic.

Choice can be good, and the individual is important, for you can't begin anything without one. And these were not new ideas, but rediscovered ones, from a time when certain elder sects of Christians compromised Christ's ideals and intent to establish greater temporal power for themselves.

[Caninope]

The problem being that libertarianism is fundamentally found on the idea that choice is good and the idea that the individual is important.

In the sense that people have the freedom to choose any sect of Christianity or none, doesn't it conform with Christianity?

Not particularly, because orthodox Christianity has a set of values that it usually agrees on to a pretty great extent. That's why Baptists and Catholics are often bedfellows in debates of public morality.

[Caninope]

The problem being that libertarianism is fundamentally found on the idea that choice is good and the idea that the individual is important.

These are relatively new ideas in the history of Christianity and still largely confined to mainline American Protestantism. Furthermore, libertarianism is often argued to implicitly endorse certain actions that Christians often find problematic.

Choice can be good, and the individual is important, for you can't begin anything without one. And these were not new ideas, but rediscovered ones, from a time when certain elder sects of Christians compromised Christ's ideals and intent to establish greater temporal power for themselves.

The individual is not looked too highly upon in Christianity, and I cannot think of any orthodox thinking that held up the individual in Christianity.

[Jefferson and Madison]

Libertarianism (classical liberalism to be more specific) is simply about allowing individuals maximum choice with limited government constraints. If a Christian does not support implementing his/her beliefs into policy, there is no contradiction of the philosophy.

The problem being that libertarianism is fundamentally found on the idea that choice is good and the idea that the individual is important.

These are relatively new ideas in the history of Christianity and still largely confined to mainline American Protestantism. Furthermore, libertarianism is often argued to implicitly endorse certain actions that Christians often find problematic.

Libertarianism is based on non-coercion barring a just cause. If an individual likes what Christianity entails and is not going to force his/her belief on others, it is perfectly within the realms of the NAP.

There are also plenty of Christians who would never act in a way that violates their beliefs, but are still libertarians.

[Caninope]

The problem being that libertarianism is fundamentally found on the idea that choice is good and the idea that the individual is important.

These are relatively new ideas in the history of Christianity and still largely confined to mainline American Protestantism. Furthermore, libertarianism is often argued to implicitly endorse certain actions that Christians often find problematic.

Libertarianism is based on non-coercion barring a just cause. If an individual likes what Christianity entails and is not going to force his/her belief on others, it is perfectly within the realms of the NAP.

There are also plenty of Christians who would never act in a way that violates their beliefs, but are still libertarians.

Libertarianism is fundamentally based on the idea of choice and the individual.

I don't doubt that there are Christians who are libertarians, but I doubt that they are reconcilable as coherent systems.

[Geen Gelul]

One is a religion, one is an ideology. One can be christian and libertarian, one can be communist and jewish, one can be some sort of "otherkin" and be a monk. Everything is possible, kids!

[New Werpland]

[Rednekylvania]

One is a religion, one is an ideology. One can be christian and libertarian, one can be communist and jewish, one can be some sort of "otherkin" and be a monk. Everything is possible, kids!

Thank you for cutting to the heart of it. The human condition is too subjective to be encapsulated by any collectively objective standard.

[New Werpland]

One is a religion, one is an ideology. One can be christian and libertarian, one can be communist and jewish, one can be some sort of "otherkin" and be a monk. Everything is possible, kids!

Thank you for cutting to the heart of it. The human condition is too subjective to be encapsulated by any collectively objective standard.

Because someone can follow a philosophical belief that proclaims that your actions are all ok as long as they don't infringe on someone else's rights, while at the same time being the member of a religious group that very clearly states a list of right and wrong things to do, most of which go beyond simply not infringing on some other person's rights

[Rednekylvania]

Thank you for cutting to the heart of it. The human condition is too subjective to be encapsulated by any collectively objective standard.

Because someone can follow a philosophical belief that proclaims that your actions are all ok as long as they don't infringe on someone else's rights, while at the same time being the member of a religious group that very clearly states a list of right and wrong things to do, most of which go beyond simply not infringing on some other person's rights

Exactly, because it is not possible for a human being to be an amoral agent. Even taking the minimalist stance of doing no harm requires us to be somewhat ethically proactive, as non-action leads to negative results by default.

[Skrepetopia]

I believe that libertarianism and Christianity, especially Reformed Christianity, work in harmony very well. From John Knox, to the Puritans, to the pilgrims, and ultimately the American Revolution, Reformed Christians have a long history of mistrust for the civil magistrate. As far as policy is concerned, I'm very, very pro-life. I realize that this is a debated issue amount libertarians, but I believe it is a more consistent libertarian position to advocate for the rights of all human beings, including that of the unborn child. As far as drugs go, I'm for the legalization of drugs that do not harm other people (i.e meth labs blow up and start fires from time to time and produce hazardous gasses that could endanger neighboring houses, that I'm not cool with). I think that marijuana has tremendous medical and economic potential, and that ending the war on drug will not only benefit us, but also take revenue from cartels and gangs and other criminals. As far as immigration and foreign policy go, I believe we as a nation are responsible for how we treat our fellow image-bearers, which means not getting involved in unnecessary, non-defensive wars, and treating immigrants with dignity and respect while also making it as easy as possible for them to become productive members of society and abolishing programs that would give them incentive to do much else. As for economic issues, I think Christ said it best in the Parable of the Vineyard Workers:

"....Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?" Matt. 20:13-16 (ESV)

You should work for the wage you agree to, no more, no less. Minimum wages reduce competition and competition produces the best quality product for lowest price. Also, people should be able to run their businesses and trade with whomever they choose and rise or fall based on their decisions. As far as gay marriage goes, I'm a theologically conservative Christian and as such believe that gay marriage is sinful and do not support it on a personal level. That being said, I believe homophobia is sinful and that homosexuals should be treated with the same dignity and respect as other human beings. I do not think the government's stamp of approval make gay marriage any more, or less valid and is in that sense the legalization of same sex marriage is of little consequence to me. Personally I believe that the government should be removed from marriage completely and leave the entire decision up to consenting adults. Fundamentally I think Christianity and libertarianism harmonize on the view that the government is accountable to a power other than itself and the laws it creates. I believe that the Gospel changes hearts, not the government....sanctification over the sword if you will.

[Genivaria]

Sweet fuck it's a YEAR OLD!!!
BAD NECROMANCER! BAD!