Christianity and Libertarianism?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Here's the entire thing, in case that verse was just too vague for you.

"Submission to Governing Authorities
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

[Grand Calvert]

...By extorting everyone who worked for their money? My point is that Jesus commanded voluntary charity, not that we should just pass legislations to knock everyone down to the same level. Taxation is extortion, which the Bible condemns.

The implication is that Jesus is advocating voluntary charity, but the government saying, "this person owns the factory, so half of what is produced by others must go to him" and using violence to force the workers to go along with it isn't voluntary. We're calling for the cessation of an involuntary act of theft.

That's just how selling things works. Sure, you made something, but you used my equipment to do it, so I make profit, too. I don't see the issue with that.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The Bible says you should submit to taxation and obey the government, and it also says give to the poor and rich people aren't good people.

I'm not seeing the issue.

No. Submission to the State over God is idolatry. Everyone is subject to God's laws, presidents and civilians alike. I can't extort someone, neither can a politician.

This isn't over God, it's consistent with both the letter and spirit of Jesus' teachings and is clearly what God wants. It would be idolatry if you did what the state wanted when it was wrong.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The implication is that Jesus is advocating voluntary charity, but the government saying, "this person owns the factory, so half of what is produced by others must go to him" and using violence to force the workers to go along with it isn't voluntary. We're calling for the cessation of an involuntary act of theft.

That's just how selling things works. Sure, you made something, but you used my equipment to do it, so I make profit, too. I don't see the issue with that.

Why do you own the equipment?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

No. Submission to the State over God is idolatry. Everyone is subject to God's laws, presidents and civilians alike. I can't extort someone, neither can a politician.

This isn't over God, it's consistent with both the letter and spirit of Jesus' teachings and is clearly what God wants. It would be idolatry if you did what the state wanted when it was wrong.

And the Bible doesn't say taxation is wrong. In fact, it commands you to comply with it, or else the government can punish you as they see fit.

[Threlizdun]

The implication is that Jesus is advocating voluntary charity, but the government saying, "this person owns the factory, so half of what is produced by others must go to him" and using violence to force the workers to go along with it isn't voluntary. We're calling for the cessation of an involuntary act of theft.

That's just how selling things works. Sure, you made something, but you used my equipment to do it, so I make profit, too. I don't see the issue with that.

And that person used government protection, government roads, government infrastructure, government networks, government schools, government emergency services, and government-produced technology.

[Liberusy]

I am not talking about Liberyarians I am talking about Libertarians [JKing ]
In all seriousness Libertarian, Classical Liberal, Voluntarist, Freedom Loving American, Rand Paul Freak, Bigot, whatever you want to call my ideology I don't care, my beliefs don't change. I believe in freedom and natural rights [those being life, liberty and property] as well as an opportunity for those who work in life to achieve.

Freedom and the opportunity to achieve on your own merits are far more strongly protected under socialism. And it certainly seems like natural law is more consistent with a system that allows more people's needs to be met, while abstaining from domination, exploitation, coercion, and harm.

Under socialism over achievers are punished. Think about group projects as school even. You have the kid who tries his hardest on it [and probably does most of the work] yet you also have the kid who does next to nothing on it, yet regardless they still get the same grade [the Try hard should have got an A, well the not-tryer should have got a F] they as a group got a C-.

You are anti-corporations having to much power and corruption so you want to make government have a monopoly on varies things, because government is made up of angels right?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I like how no one is addressing my Bible verses.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Freedom and the opportunity to achieve on your own merits are far more strongly protected under socialism. And it certainly seems like natural law is more consistent with a system that allows more people's needs to be met, while abstaining from domination, exploitation, coercion, and harm.

Under socialism over achievers are punished. Think about group projects as school even. You have the kid who tries his hardest on it [and probably does most of the work] yet you also have the kid who does next to nothing on it, yet regardless they still get the same grade [the Try hard should have got an A, well the not-tryer should have got a F] they as a group got a C-.

You are anti-corporations having to much power and corruption so you want to make government have a monopoly on varies things, because government is made up of angels right?

I want no sort of government whatsoever, actually.

[Grand Calvert]

I like how no one is addressing my Bible verses.

I like how you think all of Christianity needs to be centered around a misinterpreted Romans 13

http://libertarianchristians.com/2008/1 ... heology-2/

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I like how no one is addressing my Bible verses.

I like how you think all of Christianity needs to be centered around a misinterpreted Romans 13

http://libertarianchristians.com/2008/1 ... heology-2/

That article does not say in any way that the rich should not have the shit taxed out of them.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Freedom and the opportunity to achieve on your own merits are far more strongly protected under socialism. And it certainly seems like natural law is more consistent with a system that allows more people's needs to be met, while abstaining from domination, exploitation, coercion, and harm.

Under socialism over achievers are punished. Think about group projects as school even. You have the kid who tries his hardest on it [and probably does most of the work] yet you also have the kid who does next to nothing on it, yet regardless they still get the same grade [the Try hard should have got an A, well the not-tryer should have got a F] they as a group got a C-.

You are anti-corporations having to much power and corruption so you want to make government have a monopoly on varies things, because government is made up of angels right?

Make sure to listen to my arguments, because what you're criticizing isn't my actual position. I want the government to stop forcing the workers of the various industries to obey and give a huge cut of their profits to a class of elites. I want the corporations to be controlled by their workers.
In group projects, you're forced to be in a particular group. But in workplace democracy, you're not forced in name or fact to participate in a particular company. If groups at school were like workplace democracy and the other people weren't working hard, you could leave that group, join a different group where people worked harder, and get a better result. You're also not competing for grades in workplace democracy because you're not being paid wages determined by a boss class, you're competing for results because you get to keep whatever you produce.

[Grand Calvert]

I like how you think all of Christianity needs to be centered around a misinterpreted Romans 13

http://libertarianchristians.com/2008/1 ... heology-2/

That article does not say in any way that the rich should not have the shit taxed out of them.

...Because they shouldn't...no one should be taxed...

[Threlizdun]

Freedom and the opportunity to achieve on your own merits are far more strongly protected under socialism. And it certainly seems like natural law is more consistent with a system that allows more people's needs to be met, while abstaining from domination, exploitation, coercion, and harm.

Under socialism over achievers are punished. Think about group projects as school even. You have the kid who tries his hardest on it [and probably does most of the work] yet you also have the kid who does next to nothing on it, yet regardless they still get the same grade [the Try hard should have got an A, well the not-tryer should have got a F] they as a group got a C

Socialism means that you benefit when those around you do. By helping others you help yourself. You still get rewarded for your labour, and you have protections should anything ever happen to you. Productivity and efficiency is promoted rather than profitability. What benefits everyone is promoted over what only benefits a few but hurts society at large.

You are anti-corporations having to much power and corruption so you want to make government have a monopoly on varies things, because government is made up of angels right?

Socialism is ownership and democratic administration by the workers. This can be done with all of society owning and administrating the means of production through councils or through a market structure. Markets and socialism are hardly incompatible.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

That article does not say in any way that the rich should not have the shit taxed out of them.

...Because they shouldn't...no one should be taxed...

Where does the Bible say that?

[Grand Calvert]

...Because they shouldn't...no one should be taxed...

Where does the Bible say that?

Luke 3:13-14
And he said to them, "Collect no more than what you have been ordered to." Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages."

What is taxation other than taking money by force, no matter what it's for?

[Washington Resistance Army]

That article does not say in any way that the rich should not have the shit taxed out of them.

...Because they shouldn't...no one should be taxed...

Right, in which case you don't want us to have a functioning government.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Where does the Bible say that?

Luke 3:13-14
And he said to them, "Collect no more than what you have been ordered to." Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages."

What is taxation other than taking money by force, no matter what it's for?

He said don't collect more than you've been ordered to. Collecting taxes is fine. He's saying, don't break the law and take more than you're supposed to, for yourself.

Are you saying Paul the Apostle is contradicting Christ, by saying you should pay your taxes?

[Mysterious Stranger]

Where does the Bible say that?

Luke 3:13-14
And he said to them, "Collect no more than what you have been ordered to." Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages."

What is taxation other than taking money by force, no matter what it's for?

If you can't take money by force, why does the government violently force the population of the United States to give 34% of everything it produces to 1% of the population?

[Grand Calvert]

Luke 3:13-14
And he said to them, "Collect no more than what you have been ordered to." Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages."

What is taxation other than taking money by force, no matter what it's for?

He said don't collect more than you've been ordered to. Collecting taxes is fine. He's saying, don't break the law and take more than you're supposed to, for yourself.

Are you saying Paul the Apostle is contradicting Christ, by saying you should pay your taxes?

You obviously don't understand the historical context of Romans 13. Paul is saying that that Christians should obey all of Romes laws so that Rome wouldn't be able to find a legal reason to persecute the Christians.

[Threlizdun]

I like how no one is addressing my Bible verses.

I like how you think all of Christianity needs to be centered around a misinterpreted Romans 13

http://libertarianchristians.com/2008/1 ... heology-2/

Very lazy and honestly desperate work. The Bible states that government is divinely mandated, and states that people have a duty to follow them. No, by comparing this to how Satan is divinely mandated you do not get to reject government, as just as you cannot destroy satan because he is divinely mandated you cannot destroy governments. They are created by God for a purpose, and that purpose is to rule over the earthly kingdom before you enter the heavenly kingdom.

[Threlizdun]

He said don't collect more than you've been ordered to. Collecting taxes is fine. He's saying, don't break the law and take more than you're supposed to, for yourself.

Are you saying Paul the Apostle is contradicting Christ, by saying you should pay your taxes?

You obviously don't understand the historical context of Romans 13. Paul is saying that that Christians should obey all of Romes laws so that Rome wouldn't be able to find a legal reason to persecute the Christians.

Even if that were true, you should apply it today and pay your taxes.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I like how you think all of Christianity needs to be centered around a misinterpreted Romans 13

http://libertarianchristians.com/2008/1 ... heology-2/

Very lazy and honestly desperate work. The Bible states that government is divinely mandated, and states that people have a duty to follow them. No, by comparing this to how Satan is divinely mandated you do not get to reject government, as just as you cannot destroy satan because he is divinely mandated you cannot destroy governments. They are created by God for a purpose, and that purpose is to rule over the earthly kingdom before you enter the heavenly kingdom.

Sure as hell doesn't mean I'm not gonna try, though.

[Liberusy]

Under socialism over achievers are punished. Think about group projects as school even. You have the kid who tries his hardest on it [and probably does most of the work] yet you also have the kid who does next to nothing on it, yet regardless they still get the same grade [the Try hard should have got an A, well the not-tryer should have got a F] they as a group got a C-.

You are anti-corporations having to much power and corruption so you want to make government have a monopoly on varies things, because government is made up of angels right?

Make sure to listen to my arguments, because what you're criticizing isn't my actual position. I want the government to stop forcing the workers of the various industries to obey and give a huge cut of their profits to a class of elites. I want the corporations to be controlled by their workers.
In group projects, you're forced to be in a particular group. But in workplace democracy, you're not forced in name or fact to participate in a particular company. If groups at school were like workplace democracy and the other people weren't working hard, you could leave that group, join a different group where people worked harder, and get a better result. You're also not competing for grades in workplace democracy because you're not being paid wages determined by a boss class, you're competing for results because you get to keep whatever you produce.

Under socialism over achievers are punished. Think about group projects as school even. You have the kid who tries his hardest on it [and probably does most of the work] yet you also have the kid who does next to nothing on it, yet regardless they still get the same grade [the Try hard should have got an A, well the not-tryer should have got a F] they as a group got a C

Socialism means that you benefit when those around you do. By helping others you help yourself. You still get rewarded for your labour, and you have protections should anything ever happen to you. Productivity and efficiency is promoted rather than profitability. What benefits everyone is promoted over what only benefits a few but hurts society at large.

You are anti-corporations having to much power and corruption so you want to make government have a monopoly on varies things, because government is made up of angels right?

Socialism is ownership and democratic administration by the workers. This can be done with all of society owning and administrating the means of production through councils or through a market structure. Markets and socialism are hardly incompatible.

Well its like society at large is the group project in socialism. Everyone makes the same amount of money regardless of the job they do, or the work they put in. Its the lazy mans paradise and the hard working mans nightmare.

...Because they shouldn't...no one should be taxed...

Right, in which case you don't want us to have a functioning government.

Taxation should be voluntary if people don't want to pay for government then obviously people don't want a government.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

He said don't collect more than you've been ordered to. Collecting taxes is fine. He's saying, don't break the law and take more than you're supposed to, for yourself.

Are you saying Paul the Apostle is contradicting Christ, by saying you should pay your taxes?

You obviously don't understand the historical context of Romans 13. Paul is saying that that Christians should obey all of Romes laws so that Rome wouldn't be able to find a legal reason to persecute the Christians.

Are you actually saying we need to interpret the Bible? Because that's what you're doing. You're saying "It doesn't mean what it says, plainly and openly!" It flat-out says, obey the government. Pay your taxes. Don't rebel. Don't disobey laws. Or the government can use its divinely-ordained powers to punish you.