Christianity and Libertarianism?

[Confederate Ramenia]

So you're not a libertarian, or at least you wish to force your religious beliefs on others, eh?

No matter how you look at it, somebody's rights are going to violated. Take abortion for example.
You cannot uphold the right to life of the child without violating the woman's bodily sovereignty nor can you uphold her bodily sovereignty without violating the baby's right to life.

This. Legally I support "muh bodily sovereignty" but morally I support "muh right to life". With URSS it's pro-life both ways though, which could be argued for in a libertarian way.

Very libertarian.

1. Marriage should be left as a religious affair; govt. has nothing to do w/ making sure gays can get married

2. Fetuses are human beings, no one has the right to kill them

3. There shouldn't even be public schools

There are secular marriages and pro-gay religions, you know. Do not want to get into abortion argument, but many conservatives tend to care more about fetuses than people. I think the current way of education should be reformed, but I don't think that ideologies should be the platform for education. I think learning about religions should be encouraged and celebrated, but I don't think that religion should be the platform for education.

You, internet debater, are intelligent and have well-thought-out opinions.

That seems like heavy progress for a country that not even a century ago had forced labor camps. Many western governments have some levels of suppression and censorship, as well, though of course that doesn't justify it. It simply is not on "medieval" or "tsar" levels. I'm gonna need a source on the opposition to gays and foreigners, as well. Russia's opposition to foreign cultural influence is certainly not menacing.

Putin is literally what you get when you take away all idealism and politburo from the Soviet Union. Putin was a part of the KGB for heaven's sake, he was a part of the people who were carrying out all the atrocities during the soviet period, at least the communists repressed nationalism, built infrastructure, and educated people. Putin wants power, and gets it by revving up medieval age nationalistic tendencies in Russian culture. Do you remember how he made it illegal for people from the U.S to adopt Russian orphans, because "he wants to preserve Russian culture". Letting a bunch of orphans stay in whatever horrible arrangements that Putin has waiting for them in Mother Russia, should be considered a human rights abuse. And this myth that Western nations are as big brothery as Russia, is incredibly stupid. Do you see David Koch being put in jail for embezzlement? Or what about Ted Cruz mysteriously dying while Obama blames it on ISIS?

All right. I agree with you about how Putin is non-idealist SU. I know he was KGB. Current Russia actually is building infrastructure and education, though. Yes, he is getting power through nationalism. No, the west does not do russian-level repression, and they certainly aren't gonna do it on people in the system like Koch and Cruz, but there is a giant database full of internet information, and that seems a little like a threat of blackmail.

[Kincoboh]

You, internet debater, are intelligent and have well-thought-out opinions.

Thank you!

[Mysterious Stranger]

Taking? The claim "I own everything that you produce" is insane. The rich don't own the country, we should stop acting like they do.

Think of it this way: a job isn't an entitlement, it is a privilege. Referencing back to the book factory argument, it isn't that the book maker is entitled to the job of making books for the boss, but rather that the boss awarded the book maker with the duty of creating books for him, in exchange for a salary. Should he deserve more? Perhaps, but it depends on how well he performs, and what environment he creates.

Everyone is entitled to have his needs met in a society which is capable of providing for those needs if he is willing to do his own part towards meeting the needs of others. No one has the right to deny anyone else ownership over what he produces. If you participate in the building of a book factory, then you should be paid according to your contribution. But no one can sell a book factory, or anything else, on terms which rob another person of their right to ownership over what they produce. Still less can you rent it to anyone on such terms. The right to ownership over what one produces is inalienable.

[Mysterious Stranger]

LIbertarianism is just calling for an end to coercion. I don't see how that's incompatible with Christianity.

You mean coercion TM?

No, some anarchists have restricted views of coercion, but I use a liberal interpretation of the term which would extend to, for example, manipulation and deception.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Well, I suppose you have a couple of options. Your best one would probably be to use the fact that it's a democracy to secure minority rights the same way minority groups in political democracies always have. As a professional doctor in Texas, you'll have some degree of control over how doctors' shops in Texas are run, that's kind of the point. This would probably happen through a union.
(Also, there's something between getting a job as a doctor and starving to death, you could just work a different job. Or leave redneck Texas.)

Democracy doesn't secure minority rights, it does quite the opposite it restricts minority rights in favor of the majority. Democracy by definition is tyranny bu majority. If the majority of the people in my town decide its okay to Lynch Black people in my town of Montgomery, Alabama, then there is nothing the police can do, and they would actually be required to support it. Under democracy if you are a minority [such as a Muslim in Texas] then you have no voice in how society is run. The idea that you may have to leave your profession or leave your home state clearly points out the flaws in a socialist society. Unions wouldn't help either because they represent the majority not the minority. There is nothing in a Democratic socialist society that will protect the rights of the minority.

What protects the rights of minorities is the absence of coercion, which is democracy. In hierarchy, one class (whether an economic, racial, or political elite) compels its will onto other classes for its own advantage through the use of what we know as authoritarianism: tear gas, riot police, dogs and rubber bullets. The function of coercion is to enforce hierarchy. A class cannot be exploited with its consent, to exploit it you must first take from it its ability to consent. Democracy is simply the abolition of force, and, therefore, hierarchy, and its natural result is egalitarianism and allocation of resources on the basis of ability and need. That's why the best expression of democracy is consensus decision making, in which the consent of all parties is needed, rather than a simple majority vote.

[Quintium]

I'd go a bit further than the original poster and say that Socialism would be anti-Christian. As was said very early on in this thread, to help the poor and the needy is your personal responsibility. Like most things in life, it's a test of your character. It doesn't count if you do it through the government because you have to, and it certainly doesn't count if you force others to do it by putting the government on their case.

[CTALNH]

You mean coercion TM?

No, some anarchists have restricted views of coercion, but I use a liberal interpretation of the term which would extend to, for example, manipulation and deception.

Religion = Coercion TM.

[Twilight Imperium]

I'd go a bit further than the original poster and say that Socialism would be anti-Christian. As was said very early on in this thread, to help the poor and the needy is your personal responsibility. Like most things in life, it's a test of your character. It doesn't count if you do it through the government because you have to, and it certainly doesn't count if you force others to do it by putting the government on their case.

I don't know about you, but it seems to me like Jesus would rather have everyone not starve by mandate than have a bunch of people starve because of people failing their tests of character.

[New Werpland]

I'd go a bit further than the original poster and say that Socialism would be anti-Christian. As was said very early on in this thread, to help the poor and the needy is your personal responsibility. Like most things in life, it's a test of your character. It doesn't count if you do it through the government because you have to, and it certainly doesn't count if you force others to do it by putting the government on their case.

I'd say that Libertarianism is much more of an opposite to Christianity than at least some forms of Socialism.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I'd go a bit further than the original poster and say that Socialism would be anti-Christian. As was said very early on in this thread, to help the poor and the needy is your personal responsibility. Like most things in life, it's a test of your character. It doesn't count if you do it through the government because you have to, and it certainly doesn't count if you force others to do it by putting the government on their case.

Christ seems to have been quite the socialist, as do most early Christians. In fact, the Bible seems extremely friendly towards communistic practices. And I'm sure you know it was quite explicit about obeying your government.

Matthew 6:2-4 ESV

“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

2 Corinthians 8:13-15 ESV

For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.”

Ephesians 4:28 ESV

Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

Acts 2:44-45 ESV
And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Acts 4:32-35 ESV

Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.

Luke 3:11 ESV

And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

Galatians 6:2 ESV

Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

1 John 3:17 ESV

But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

James 5:1-6 ESV

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. ...

Galatians 5:14 ESV

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 19:21 ESV

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Acts 20:35 ESV

In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

1 Timothy 6:10 ESV

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

Matthew 6:24 ESV

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Luke 6:20-24 ESV

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.

Isaiah 55:1-13 ESV

“Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food. Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David. Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you. ...

James 2:1-5 ESV

My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

Matthew 25:45 ESV

Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

Acts 4:31-34 ESV / 10 helpful votes

And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold

John 12:3-6 ESV / 10 helpful votes

Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it.


Matthew 19:23 ESV

And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 55:1-2 ESV

“Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food.

There are many more, but I don't feel like copying them.

[Mysterious Stranger]

No, some anarchists have restricted views of coercion, but I use a liberal interpretation of the term which would extend to, for example, manipulation and deception.

Religion = Coercion TM.

No, some anarchists are antitheist but I'm not. Quite the opposite, I'm very religious. I just don't like the way churches and states have been using it.

[CTALNH]

Religion = Coercion TM.

No, some anarchists are antitheist but I'm not. Quite the opposite, I'm very religious. I just don't like the way churches and states have been using it.

Dude I don't think you are getting me. Religion no matter on which side of the fence you sit is coercion the church etc etc are just results from that coercion.

[New Werpland]

No, some anarchists are antitheist but I'm not. Quite the opposite, I'm very religious. I just don't like the way churches and states have been using it.

Dude I don't think you are getting me. Religion no matter on which side of the fence you sit is coercion the church etc etc are just results from that coercion.

Oh more generalizations with no basis, great.

[Mysterious Stranger]

No, some anarchists are antitheist but I'm not. Quite the opposite, I'm very religious. I just don't like the way churches and states have been using it.

Dude I don't think you are getting me. Religion no matter on which side of the fence you sit is coercion the church etc etc are just results from that coercion.

You're gonna have a hell of a time arguing that position.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

No, some anarchists are antitheist but I'm not. Quite the opposite, I'm very religious. I just don't like the way churches and states have been using it.

Dude I don't think you are getting me. Religion no matter on which side of the fence you sit is coercion the church etc etc are just results from that coercion.

Yes. The Church and religion in general is also hierarchy. Which is incompatible with anarchism.

[The New Sea Territory]

Dude I don't think you are getting me. Religion no matter on which side of the fence you sit is coercion the church etc etc are just results from that coercion.

Oh more generalizations with no basis, great.

Organized religion is nothing more than a bunch of priests exploiting the existential crises, despair and angst of people who are philosophically ignorant.

Pretty anti-anarchist if you ask me. Religious beliefs aren't inherently bad, but massive hierarchies and bureaucracies sitting around profiting off their flocks is not anarchistic.

I'd go a bit further than the original poster and say that Socialism would be anti-Christian. As was said very early on in this thread, to help the poor and the needy is your personal responsibility. Like most things in life, it's a test of your character. It doesn't count if you do it through the government because you have to, and it certainly doesn't count if you force others to do it by putting the government on their case.

This assumes that socialism inherently maintains a state and forces collectivization...which is a massive strawman. But this was expected, as you have a history of blatant disregard for facts.

[The New Sea Territory]

Dude I don't think you are getting me. Religion no matter on which side of the fence you sit is coercion the church etc etc are just results from that coercion.

Yes. The Church and religion in general is also hierarchy. Which is incompatible with anarchism.

Could you not apply the "union of egoists" idea to a spiritual group, within an anarchist society. "Priesthood of all believers" could be interpreted in a radically non-hierarchical way.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Organized religion is nothing more than a bunch of priests exploiting the existential crises, despair and angst of people who are philosophically ignorant.

Pretty anti-anarchist if you ask me. Religious beliefs aren't inherently bad, but massive hierarchies and bureaucracies sitting around profiting off their flocks is not anarchistic.

Exactly. You can believe in all flying spaghetti monsters you want, just don't ask for money, don't impress it on your children, and don't try to make it law.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Yes. The Church and religion in general is also hierarchy. Which is incompatible with anarchism.

Could you not apply the "union of egoists" idea to a spiritual group, within an anarchist society. "Priesthood of all believers" could be interpreted in a radically non-hierarchical way.

I clarified in the post above. I suppose it's just the majority of religion, I spoke incorrectly.

The Abrahamic religions? Hierarchical. In their modern form.

[The New Sea Territory]

Could you not apply the "union of egoists" idea to a spiritual group, within an anarchist society. "Priesthood of all believers" could be interpreted in a radically non-hierarchical way.

I clarified in the post above. I suppose it's just the majority of religion, I spoke incorrectly.

The Abrahamic religions? Hierarchical. In their modern form.

Yes, but Tolstoyist interpretations could (and actually were) reconciled with anarchist ideals.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

There is such thing as a Christian Anarchist mind you. For example this guy Tolstoy?

People also claim to be Anarcho-Capitalists. Doesn't mean it's true.

(You deleted your post, but I decided to still address it.)

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I clarified in the post above. I suppose it's just the majority of religion, I spoke incorrectly.

The Abrahamic religions? Hierarchical. In their modern form.

Yes, but Tolstoyist interpretations could (and actually were) reconciled with anarchist ideals.

Good for them. I could definitely do with some research into them, but as a rule while talking with the average Westerner, I will maintain anarchy's spurn of organized religion.

[Kanadrin]

On the stance of Anarchism and Christianity, it is up to the level of a person's inherent belief in that religion. I'm Roman Catholic myself, but politically I call myself an anarchist or at least a left wing libertarian. I believe in what I believe, but I also have a sense of acceptance and respect for those of other beliefs.

I like communities like Twin Oaks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGv50uYUHJw and their communist-like society. I would very much practice my own Catholic belief while living in co-existence with others, despite their beliefs. If done in this way, is Anarchism and Christianity compatible, or is my understanding/interpretation of Roman Catholicism too far off the beaten path for it to be relevant?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

On the stance of Anarchism and Christianity, it is up to the level of a person's inherent belief in that religion. I'm Roman Catholic myself, but politically I call myself an anarchist or at least a left wing libertarian. I believe in what I believe, but I also have a sense of acceptance and respect for those of other beliefs.

I like communities like Twin Oaks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGv50uYUHJw and their communist-like society. I would very much practice my own Catholic belief while living in co-existence with others, despite their beliefs. If done in this way, is Anarchism and Christianity compatible, or is my understanding/interpretation of Roman Catholicism too far off the beaten path for it to be relevant?

You're free to have a personal relationship with Christ, but bowing down to the Catholic Church is kind of anti-anarchist.

[Threlizdun]

On the stance of Anarchism and Christianity, it is up to the level of a person's inherent belief in that religion. I'm Roman Catholic myself, but politically I call myself an anarchist or at least a left wing libertarian. I believe in what I believe, but I also have a sense of acceptance and respect for those of other beliefs.

I like communities like Twin Oaks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGv50uYUHJw and their communist-like society. I would very much practice my own Catholic belief while living in co-existence with others, despite their beliefs. If done in this way, is Anarchism and Christianity compatible, or is my understanding/interpretation of Roman Catholicism too far off the beaten path for it to be relevant?

I've had the good fortune of meeting several members of the Twin Oaks Community. They're pretty close by. They're good people. I'm pretty sure I remember hearing at one point that some of them are Christians. Christianity and anarchism are definitely compatible, with Christian anarchism being a thing, and among Catholicism specifically there is liberation theology, which has had a rather large following in Latin America.