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Christianity and Libertarianism?

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Pandeeria
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Founded: Jun 12, 2011
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Postby Pandeeria » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:15 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Skrepetopia wrote:As a fellow Reformed Baptist, I'd say that while I have an affinity for the libertarian stance, I personally am probably too conservative to call myself one. Likewise I'd say that while a lot of my Christian friends who claim to be libertarians are probably in the same boat.


Good to see another like-minded (theologically) person! I used to be politically authoritarian, but I began to view taxation as a form of extortion. This led to me wanting extremely small government...


Taxation is the most basic necessity for a government to do basic tasks and keep the order.

Small government also has the tendency to produce shitty infrastructure, worthless if even existent basic public programs, and poor uses to tax dollars (IE building a massive military instead of giving the people medicine). Small governments also allow businesses to easily fuck over both the worker and consumer, a real form of extortion, but that form is ok to you, isn't it?
Last edited by Pandeeria on Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:17 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
Good to see another like-minded (theologically) person! I used to be politically authoritarian, but I began to view taxation as a form of extortion. This led to me wanting extremely small government...


Taxation is the most basic necessity for a government to do basic tasks and keep the order.

Small government also has the tendency to produce shitty infrastructure and poor uses to tax dollars (IE building a massive military instead of giving the people medicine). Small governments also allow businesses to easily fuck over both the worker and consumer, a real form of extortion, but that form is ok to you, isn't it?


The ideal is no taxation at all (if that means no govt. so be it, all I really need is God anyways). And no corporations aren't extortion, because it's not "give me money or you're punished" (govt.) it's "if you don't give me money I won't give you what I'm selling". HUGE difference.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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Kincoboh
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Postby Kincoboh » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:21 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Arana wrote:Without a doubt. However, China is more state capitalist than socialist these days. Regardless, that's largely due to the fact that they still use coal, rather than oil or natural gas. But keep in mind, the US is also one of the largest polluters in the world, as is India, another capitalist nation.

China is classified as authoritarian capitalist, but authoritarian capitalist does not mean capitalist. It simply means the government is industrialist and intent on growing its market an economy. A better comparison for authoritarian capitalism would be mercantilism.

The difference is that China does not have colonies, which is an integral part of mercantilism. China is generally accepted as the best example of modern state capitalism.
Equality Liberty Extropy Autopoiesis

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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:21 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
Taxation is the most basic necessity for a government to do basic tasks and keep the order.

Small government also has the tendency to produce shitty infrastructure and poor uses to tax dollars (IE building a massive military instead of giving the people medicine). Small governments also allow businesses to easily fuck over both the worker and consumer, a real form of extortion, but that form is ok to you, isn't it?


The ideal is no taxation at all (if that means no govt. so be it, all I really need is God anyways).


That's when I stopped reading (not literally of course, but that's the moment I gave up.)

That's the moment I realized I have nothing else to say to you. You're too gone. Have a good day.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Royal Hindustan
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Founded: Mar 09, 2012
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Postby Royal Hindustan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:22 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
Good to see another like-minded (theologically) person! I used to be politically authoritarian, but I began to view taxation as a form of extortion. This led to me wanting extremely small government...


Taxation is the most basic necessity for a government to do basic tasks and keep the order.

Small government also has the tendency to produce shitty infrastructure, worthless if even existent basic public programs, and poor uses to tax dollars (IE building a massive military instead of giving the people medicine). Small governments also allow businesses to easily fuck over both the worker and consumer, a real form of extortion, but that form is ok to you, isn't it?

In my opinion, no taxes are good taxes. If the government is small, and infrastructure is private, people might have to pay for basic amenities, but I can bet you it will be much less than how much the average man would pay in taxes.

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Royal Hindustan
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Postby Royal Hindustan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:24 pm

Kincoboh wrote:
Royal Hindustan wrote:China is classified as authoritarian capitalist, but authoritarian capitalist does not mean capitalist. It simply means the government is industrialist and intent on growing its market an economy. A better comparison for authoritarian capitalism would be mercantilism.

The difference is that China does not have colonies, which is an integral part of mercantilism. China is generally accepted as the best example of modern state capitalism.

Hong Kong? Plus colonialism is not a required proponent to mercantilism.

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Arana
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Postby Arana » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:24 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
Taxation is the most basic necessity for a government to do basic tasks and keep the order.

Small government also has the tendency to produce shitty infrastructure, worthless if even existent basic public programs, and poor uses to tax dollars (IE building a massive military instead of giving the people medicine). Small governments also allow businesses to easily fuck over both the worker and consumer, a real form of extortion, but that form is ok to you, isn't it?

In my opinion, no taxes are good taxes. If the government is small, and infrastructure is private, people might have to pay for basic amenities, but I can bet you it will be much less than how much the average man would pay in taxes.

Scandinavian countries have high taxes. In exchange, they get universal healthcare, cheap (if not free) higher education, housing, and welfare. Plus, they're some of the happiest countries in the world.
Prophet of Lavanthulhu -- A Proud Portal Nationalist -- Bet on Bernie 2016

Arana wrote:Fuck you and your raps,
And all your stupid rhyming.
Haiku master race.

*Drops mic*
Seventeen year old probably straight Christian socialist from New England.

"Aran is basically a very pissed-off Chihuahua combined with a bisexual Billy Graham, minus the bisexuality." -Lavan Tiri

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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:25 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
Taxation is the most basic necessity for a government to do basic tasks and keep the order.

Small government also has the tendency to produce shitty infrastructure, worthless if even existent basic public programs, and poor uses to tax dollars (IE building a massive military instead of giving the people medicine). Small governments also allow businesses to easily fuck over both the worker and consumer, a real form of extortion, but that form is ok to you, isn't it?

In my opinion, no taxes are good taxes. If the government is small, and infrastructure is private, people might have to pay for basic amenities, but I can bet you it will be much less than how much the average man would pay in taxes.


'Cause fuck those that can't afford an education. Right? Screw those that cannot afford a basic health care plan for their family or are constantly screwed over by predatory market tactics. You know what? Screw it. let's just form a plutocracy at this point. A corporatistic plutocracy might as well be at this point.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:25 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
The ideal is no taxation at all (if that means no govt. so be it, all I really need is God anyways).


That's when I stopped reading (not literally of course, but that's the moment I gave up.)

That's the moment I realized I have nothing else to say to you. You're too gone. Have a good day.


Goodbye, and have fun worshiping your god, Daddy Government.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:26 pm

Arana wrote:
Royal Hindustan wrote:In my opinion, no taxes are good taxes. If the government is small, and infrastructure is private, people might have to pay for basic amenities, but I can bet you it will be much less than how much the average man would pay in taxes.

Scandinavian countries have high taxes. In exchange, they get universal healthcare, cheap (if not free) higher education, housing, and welfare. Plus, they're some of the happiest countries in the world.


There's a reason Canadians always run down to America for medical coverage: universal healthcare is crappy healthcare.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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Royal Hindustan
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Founded: Mar 09, 2012
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Postby Royal Hindustan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:27 pm

Arana wrote:
Royal Hindustan wrote:In my opinion, no taxes are good taxes. If the government is small, and infrastructure is private, people might have to pay for basic amenities, but I can bet you it will be much less than how much the average man would pay in taxes.

Scandinavian countries have high taxes. In exchange, they get universal healthcare, cheap (if not free) higher education, housing, and welfare. Plus, they're some of the happiest countries in the world.

Scandinavian countries have conscription, plus when was the last time you saw an incredibly successful industry coming out of Scandinavia.

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Confederate Ramenia
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Postby Confederate Ramenia » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:27 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Confederate Ramenia wrote:Well that's a strong opinion. Got anything supporting it?

He puts people in jail because they don't like him, and bans gays and foreigners from corrupting the youth. What more is there to say?

That seems like heavy progress for a country that not even a century ago had forced labor camps. Many western governments have some levels of suppression and censorship, as well, though of course that doesn't justify it. It simply is not on "medieval" or "tsar" levels. I'm gonna need a source on the opposition to gays and foreigners, as well. Russia's opposition to foreign cultural influence is certainly not menacing.
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a genuine workers' state in which all the people are completely liberated from exploitation and oppression. The workers, peasants, soldiers and intellectuals are the true masters of their destiny and are in a unique position to defend their interests.
The Flutterlands wrote:Because human life and dignity is something that should be universally valued above all things in society.

Benito Mussolini wrote:Everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable.

I disown most of my previous posts

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Arana
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Postby Arana » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:28 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Arana wrote:Scandinavian countries have high taxes. In exchange, they get universal healthcare, cheap (if not free) higher education, housing, and welfare. Plus, they're some of the happiest countries in the world.


There's a reason Canadians always run down to America for medical coverage: universal healthcare is crappy healthcare.

I think you have that the other way around... we go there. Sarah Palin even admitted that her family often goes into Canada to get free healthcare, despite the fact that opposes it in America.
Prophet of Lavanthulhu -- A Proud Portal Nationalist -- Bet on Bernie 2016

Arana wrote:Fuck you and your raps,
And all your stupid rhyming.
Haiku master race.

*Drops mic*
Seventeen year old probably straight Christian socialist from New England.

"Aran is basically a very pissed-off Chihuahua combined with a bisexual Billy Graham, minus the bisexuality." -Lavan Tiri

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:28 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Royal Hindustan wrote:In my opinion, no taxes are good taxes. If the government is small, and infrastructure is private, people might have to pay for basic amenities, but I can bet you it will be much less than how much the average man would pay in taxes.


'Cause fuck those that can't afford an education. Right? Screw those that cannot afford a basic health care plan for their family or are constantly screwed over by predatory market tactics. You know what? Screw it. let's just form a plutocracy at this point. A corporatistic plutocracy might as well be at this point.


You have heard of charities, right? And voluntary donations? It's not like government is the sole fabric holding everything together.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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Royal Hindustan
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Founded: Mar 09, 2012
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Postby Royal Hindustan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:29 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Royal Hindustan wrote:In my opinion, no taxes are good taxes. If the government is small, and infrastructure is private, people might have to pay for basic amenities, but I can bet you it will be much less than how much the average man would pay in taxes.


'Cause fuck those that can't afford an education. Right? Screw those that cannot afford a basic health care plan for their family or are constantly screwed over by predatory market tactics. You know what? Screw it. let's just form a plutocracy at this point. A corporatistic plutocracy might as well be at this point.

In a capitalistic government, people would usually get healthcare from employers.

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Pandeeria
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Founded: Jun 12, 2011
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Postby Pandeeria » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:29 pm

Arana wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
There's a reason Canadians always run down to America for medical coverage: universal healthcare is crappy healthcare.

I think you have that the other way around... we go there. Sarah Palin even admitted that her family often goes into Canada to get free healthcare, despite the fact that opposes it in America.


Not to mention in most European countries, health care is extremely efficient and on par with the US. Canada is the exception, not the rule to Universal Healthcare.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Confederate Ramenia
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Postby Confederate Ramenia » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:29 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Arana wrote:Scandinavian countries have high taxes. In exchange, they get universal healthcare, cheap (if not free) higher education, housing, and welfare. Plus, they're some of the happiest countries in the world.

Scandinavian countries have conscription, plus when was the last time you saw an incredibly successful industry coming out of Scandinavia.

"muh ikea" though seriously Sweden is shit. Like all the stores in Sweden are franchises of western corporations.
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a genuine workers' state in which all the people are completely liberated from exploitation and oppression. The workers, peasants, soldiers and intellectuals are the true masters of their destiny and are in a unique position to defend their interests.
The Flutterlands wrote:Because human life and dignity is something that should be universally valued above all things in society.

Benito Mussolini wrote:Everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable.

I disown most of my previous posts

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Arana
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Founded: Dec 13, 2013
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Postby Arana » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:31 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
'Cause fuck those that can't afford an education. Right? Screw those that cannot afford a basic health care plan for their family or are constantly screwed over by predatory market tactics. You know what? Screw it. let's just form a plutocracy at this point. A corporatistic plutocracy might as well be at this point.

In a capitalistic government, people would usually get healthcare from employers.

Walmart doesn't give the majority of their employees healthcare, forcing them to work part time so that they can get away with it. Other companies do the same.

Except Costco. Costco is the Scandinavia and/or Netherlands of retailers.
Prophet of Lavanthulhu -- A Proud Portal Nationalist -- Bet on Bernie 2016

Arana wrote:Fuck you and your raps,
And all your stupid rhyming.
Haiku master race.

*Drops mic*
Seventeen year old probably straight Christian socialist from New England.

"Aran is basically a very pissed-off Chihuahua combined with a bisexual Billy Graham, minus the bisexuality." -Lavan Tiri

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Kibbehstan
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Founded: Mar 29, 2015
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Postby Kibbehstan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:31 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Arana wrote:Scandinavian countries have high taxes. In exchange, they get universal healthcare, cheap (if not free) higher education, housing, and welfare. Plus, they're some of the happiest countries in the world.

Scandinavian countries have conscription, plus when was the last time you saw an incredibly successful industry coming out of Scandinavia.

1. I don't really care about conscription; it's something I would do for my country if it gave me all the things Scandinavians get. Besides, only Norway (and Finland but that's Nordic not Scandinavian) have conscription.
2. Ikea, Statoil and Handelsbanken.
Last edited by Kibbehstan on Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kincoboh
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Postby Kincoboh » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:31 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Kincoboh wrote:The difference is that China does not have colonies, which is an integral part of mercantilism. China is generally accepted as the best example of modern state capitalism.

Hong Kong? Plus colonialism is not a required proponent to mercantilism.

Hong Kong and Macau are not colonies of China, they were colonies of Britain and Portugal that were given back. And yes, colonialism is required for mercantilism, that's why mercantile states had colonies. But mercantilism is in itself a form of capitalism, so the point is moot.
Equality Liberty Extropy Autopoiesis

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Royal Hindustan
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Founded: Mar 09, 2012
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Postby Royal Hindustan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:32 pm

Confederate Ramenia wrote:
Royal Hindustan wrote:Scandinavian countries have conscription, plus when was the last time you saw an incredibly successful industry coming out of Scandinavia.

"muh ikea" though seriously Sweden is shit. Like all the stores in Sweden are franchises of western corporations.

Hahaha, you mean "muh poor college student shaky furniture business." You have to remember, the reason western corporations are in Sweden is because it is a consumers market.

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Royal Hindustan
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Postby Royal Hindustan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:33 pm

Kincoboh wrote:
Royal Hindustan wrote:Hong Kong? Plus colonialism is not a required proponent to mercantilism.

Hong Kong and Macau are not colonies of China, they were colonies of Britain and Portugal that were given back. And yes, colonialism is required for mercantilism, that's why mercantile states had colonies. But mercantilism is in itself a form of capitalism, so the point is moot.

The culture of Hong Kong is far different than the culture of China. And no, mercantilism emphasizes state business, capitalism emphasizes private businesses.

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Pandeeria
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Founded: Jun 12, 2011
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Postby Pandeeria » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:36 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Confederate Ramenia wrote:"muh ikea" though seriously Sweden is shit. Like all the stores in Sweden are franchises of western corporations.

Hahaha, you mean "muh poor college student shaky furniture business." You have to remember, the reason western corporations are in Sweden is because it is a consumers market.


It's an extremely wealthy one at that.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Royal Hindustan
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Founded: Mar 09, 2012
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Postby Royal Hindustan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:37 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Royal Hindustan wrote:Hahaha, you mean "muh poor college student shaky furniture business." You have to remember, the reason western corporations are in Sweden is because it is a consumers market.


It's an extremely wealthy one at that.

Per capita, yes, but nominally, no.

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Pandeeria
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Founded: Jun 12, 2011
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Postby Pandeeria » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:38 pm

Royal Hindustan wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
It's an extremely wealthy one at that.

Per capita, yes, but nominally, no.


It's not nominally due to it's very small population. Still extremely profitable.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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