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Christianity and Libertarianism?

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Liberusy
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Postby Liberusy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:29 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Liberusy wrote:And there still is charity, why would Paul want to go against [or stretch] the teachings of Jesus when he can stick to what was actually taught?
"Thou shall not steal" It is explicitly clear wealth redistribution requires taxation which is theft and against God's commandments. Charity is voluntarily funded so it is therefore perfectly acceptable and encouraged.

No man, redistribution did not exist in antiquity. Also why don't you actually look at the people who most influenced early Christianity None of them were Libertarians.

They didn't care about politics, they're one goal was to spread the gospel.
They were not to happy that the Roman government was martyring them for there faith though.
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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:35 pm

Liberusy wrote:
New Werpland wrote:No man, redistribution did not exist in antiquity. Also why don't you actually look at the people who most influenced early Christianity None of them were Libertarians.

They didn't care about politics, they're one goal was to spread the gospel.
They were not to happy that the Roman government was martyring them for there faith though.

no I'm talking about ethics, not politics.

Read the wikipedia page will you, and tell me whether Neoplatonism or any of the Hellenistic philosophies says anything about individual liberties.
(link)
Last edited by New Werpland on Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:49 pm

Primitivist Jemaoi Aaja Aaja wrote:wtf is this thread?


Sure maybe Catholicism is incompatible, but we're not talking about Catholicism exclusively
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:50 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Liberusy wrote:They didn't care about politics, they're one goal was to spread the gospel.
They were not to happy that the Roman government was martyring them for there faith though.

no I'm talking about ethics, not politics.

Read the wikipedia page will you, and tell me whether Neoplatonism or any of the Hellenistic philosophies says anything about individual liberties.
(link)


This page isn't about ethic libertarianism, it's about whether Christians should be political libertarians or not
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:52 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Primitivist Jemaoi Aaja Aaja wrote:wtf is this thread?


Sure maybe Catholicism is incompatible, but we're not talking about Catholicism exclusively

Some protestant churches are compatible with a semi free market, but that isn't even Libertarianism in the first place.
Last edited by New Werpland on Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Liberusy
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Postby Liberusy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:53 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Liberusy wrote:They didn't care about politics, they're one goal was to spread the gospel.
They were not to happy that the Roman government was martyring them for there faith though.

no I'm talking about ethics, not politics.

Read the wikipedia page will you, and tell me whether Neoplatonism or any of the Hellenistic philosophies says anything about individual liberties.
(link)

Again there one goal was to make disciples of all nation not determine what political society Jesus was trying to preach [which is none since he wasn't concerned with politics he was concerned about saving the world].
Rand Paul 2016!! If you have any questions TG me.
I am a high school student and Libertarian!!!
http://www.isidewith.com/results/818236075
Libertarians: 94%
Constitution Party: 80%
Republicans: 77%
Conservative Party 75%
Democrats: 37%
Green Party: 34%
Socialist: 17%

"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty" -Thomas Jefferson
"The duty of youth is to challenge corruption" -Kurt Cobain
"That others may live" -USAF PJ Motto


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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:55 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
New Werpland wrote:no I'm talking about ethics, not politics.

Read the wikipedia page will you, and tell me whether Neoplatonism or any of the Hellenistic philosophies says anything about individual liberties.
(link)


This page isn't about ethic libertarianism, it's about whether Christians should be political libertarians or not

:roll:
Yes, and if Christian Ethics aren't compatible with Libertarian ethics, then I guess Christians can't be Libertarians right?

Just a thought.

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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:55 pm

Liberusy wrote:
New Werpland wrote:no I'm talking about ethics, not politics.

Read the wikipedia page will you, and tell me whether Neoplatonism or any of the Hellenistic philosophies says anything about individual liberties.
(link)

Again there one goal was to make disciples of all nation not determine what political society Jesus was trying to preach [which is none since he wasn't concerned with politics he was concerned about saving the world].

Yea and to save the worlds you probably need Ethics, and where are you gonna get that? It starts with a p

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Liberusy
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Postby Liberusy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:56 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
This page isn't about ethic libertarianism, it's about whether Christians should be political libertarians or not

:roll:
Yes, and if Christian Ethics aren't compatible with Libertarian ethics, then I guess Christians can't be Libertarians right?

Just a thought.

What is even Libertarian ethics?
Rand Paul 2016!! If you have any questions TG me.
I am a high school student and Libertarian!!!
http://www.isidewith.com/results/818236075
Libertarians: 94%
Constitution Party: 80%
Republicans: 77%
Conservative Party 75%
Democrats: 37%
Green Party: 34%
Socialist: 17%

"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty" -Thomas Jefferson
"The duty of youth is to challenge corruption" -Kurt Cobain
"That others may live" -USAF PJ Motto


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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:57 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
This page isn't about ethic libertarianism, it's about whether Christians should be political libertarians or not

:roll:
Yes, and if Christian Ethics aren't compatible with Libertarian ethics, then I guess Christians can't be Libertarians right?

Just a thought.


Well for example, I think it's wrong to avoid charity, but I'm not going to use coercion to force someone to be more charitable and I'm not going to extort their money to do what I want with it (hint hint taxation)
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:13 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
New Werpland wrote: :roll:
Yes, and if Christian Ethics aren't compatible with Libertarian ethics, then I guess Christians can't be Libertarians right?

Just a thought.


Well for example, I think it's wrong to avoid charity, but I'm not going to use coercion to force someone to be more charitable and I'm not going to extort their money to do what I want with it (hint hint taxation)

Again your using Libertarianism, a concept not in existence when Christianity was kicked of. Saint Augustine defines evil as the absence of good, so a person who chooses to not do any good is evil.

In Libertarianism everything is up to the individual, society does not have the right to judge people's choices as right and wrong.
Last edited by New Werpland on Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:16 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
Well for example, I think it's wrong to avoid charity, but I'm not going to use coercion to force someone to be more charitable and I'm not going to extort their money to do what I want with it (hint hint taxation)

Again your using Libertarianism, a concept not in existence when Christianity was kicked of. Saint Augustine defines evil as the absence of good, so a person who chooses to not do any good is evil.

In Libertarianism everything is up to the individual, society does not have the right to judge people's choices as right and wrong.


In libertarianism there is no coercion; coercion is unbiblical.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:21 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
New Werpland wrote:Again your using Libertarianism, a concept not in existence when Christianity was kicked of. Saint Augustine defines evil as the absence of good, so a person who chooses to not do any good is evil.

In Libertarianism everything is up to the individual, society does not have the right to judge people's choices as right and wrong.


In libertarianism there is no coercion; coercion is unbiblical.

So fighting evil is unbiblical? I suppose that Christians must therefor be stoic pacifists.
Last edited by New Werpland on Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:27 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
In libertarianism there is no coercion; coercion is unbiblical.

So fighting evil is unbiblical? I suppose that Christians must therefor be stoic pacifists.


Well doing anything against God's will is evil; but violence should only be used in self defense.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:31 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
New Werpland wrote:So fighting evil is unbiblical? I suppose that Christians must therefor be stoic pacifists.


Well doing anything against God's will is evil; but violence should only be used in self defense.

So you would allow murder, because you aren't the one being murdered? That doesn't sound very Christian to me.

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:34 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
Well doing anything against God's will is evil; but violence should only be used in self defense.

So you would allow murder, because you aren't the one being murdered? That doesn't sound very Christian to me.


No, that's not what I'm saying: obviously violent people need to be stopped, but the only role of government is to stop individuals from harming one another. They're not supposed to be up in everyone's business all the time.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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Liberusy
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
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Postby Liberusy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:35 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
Well for example, I think it's wrong to avoid charity, but I'm not going to use coercion to force someone to be more charitable and I'm not going to extort their money to do what I want with it (hint hint taxation)

Again your using Libertarianism, a concept not in existence when Christianity was kicked of. Saint Augustine defines evil as the absence of good, so a person who chooses to not do any good is evil.

In Libertarianism everything is up to the individual, society does not have the right to judge people's choices as right and wrong.

Well we can tell people that what there doing might be wrong but we shouldn't judge or dictate moral behavior.
"Judge not lest you be judged"

New Werpland wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:
Well doing anything against God's will is evil; but violence should only be used in self defense.

So you would allow murder, because you aren't the one being murdered? That doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Self defense and the defense of others.
Rand Paul 2016!! If you have any questions TG me.
I am a high school student and Libertarian!!!
http://www.isidewith.com/results/818236075
Libertarians: 94%
Constitution Party: 80%
Republicans: 77%
Conservative Party 75%
Democrats: 37%
Green Party: 34%
Socialist: 17%

"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty" -Thomas Jefferson
"The duty of youth is to challenge corruption" -Kurt Cobain
"That others may live" -USAF PJ Motto


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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:40 pm

Ugh. All the speculation over "what economic system does faith x preach?" gets really grating. I've seen solid arguments from both sides, and it all amounts to nothing. Even if we conclusively prove that Jesus was a socialist, almost all of the liberals will continue being liberals. And vice-versa.

Hello NS! I was thinking about this for awhile and the question is; what do you guys think about Christianity and Libertarianism? Do they go together? Or does Christianity preach Socialism instead?

Why not both.
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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:42 pm

Merizoc wrote:Ugh. All the speculation over "what economic system does faith x preach?" gets really grating. I've seen solid arguments from both sides, and it all amounts to nothing. Even if we conclusively prove that Jesus was a socialist, almost all of the liberals will continue being liberals. And vice-versa.

Hello NS! I was thinking about this for awhile and the question is; what do you guys think about Christianity and Libertarianism? Do they go together? Or does Christianity preach Socialism instead?

Why not both.


Um, liberals are socialists. Or at least where I am that's what that means.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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Immoren
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Postby Immoren » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:44 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Merizoc wrote:Ugh. All the speculation over "what economic system does faith x preach?" gets really grating. I've seen solid arguments from both sides, and it all amounts to nothing. Even if we conclusively prove that Jesus was a socialist, almost all of the liberals will continue being liberals. And vice-versa.


Why not both.


Um, liberals are socialists. Or at least where I am that's what that means.


Liberals support free-market and the nightwatchman state. :p
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Providence and Port Hope
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Postby Providence and Port Hope » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:45 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Liberusy wrote:Assuming you are Christian, that seems a little un-Christian to be calling anyone who disagrees with you idiots.
Hard left liberalism would be taking from the rich and giving to the poor, that would be theft, when did Jesus ever condone theft?

Taking? The claim "I own everything that you produce" is insane. The rich don't own the country, we should stop acting like they do.


Think of it this way: a job isn't an entitlement, it is a privilege. Referencing back to the book factory argument, it isn't that the book maker is entitled to the job of making books for the boss, but rather that the boss awarded the book maker with the duty of creating books for him, in exchange for a salary. Should he deserve more? Perhaps, but it depends on how well he performs, and what environment he creates.
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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:46 pm

:palm:
Grand Calvert wrote:
Merizoc wrote:Ugh. All the speculation over "what economic system does faith x preach?" gets really grating. I've seen solid arguments from both sides, and it all amounts to nothing. Even if we conclusively prove that Jesus was a socialist, almost all of the liberals will continue being liberals. And vice-versa.


Why not both.


Um, liberals are socialists. Or at least where I am that's what that means.

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Arana
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Postby Arana » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:51 pm

As a Christian and a Libertarian Socialist, I'd have to argue that the Bible can be seen to support both libertarianism and socialism. However, I see it as supporting libertarianism socially, and socialism economically, as opposed to the other way around. Therefore it would support little government involvement in people's day to day lives, but worker control of industries.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:52 pm

Liberusy wrote:
Kincoboh wrote:Anarchism is all-encompassing. If there was a tyranny of the majority anarchist group, then they wouldn't be anarchist. You can't be anarchist if you're pro-hierarchy.

Then you are an ANCAP not a believer in Democracy.

Where the fuck did you get capitalism out of that?
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:54 pm

Liberusy wrote:
Dejanic wrote:Libertarianism is the absolute opposite of Christianity. Libertarianism has more in common with Satanism, both are individualistic doctrines which preach greed, self reliance, selfishness, etc.

Christianity is closest to a pure form of Socialism.

Not at all. That isn't even what Libertarianism preaches for starters.
It encourages a self reliance, charity driven society versus involuntary redistribution of wealth in a nanny style government.
"but you shall FREELY open your hand to him, and shall generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks." -Deuteronomy 15:8

"One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, And He will repay him for his good deed." -Proverbs 19:17

"But give that which is within as CHARITY, and then all things are clean for you." -Luke 11:41 [Taxation not charity]

"Sell your possessions and give to CHARITY; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys." -Luke 12:33 [again charity not taxation]

"He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need." -Ephesians 4:28 [Taxation is stealing]

"Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and READY to share," -1 Timothy 6:18 [ready not forced]

Yet the most important person in your political ideology wrote a book called the Virtue of Selfishness. Not only that, but hated God/the idea of god and was a militant atheist.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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