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[US Election 2016] Republican Primary Megathread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Candidate Do You Support?

Ted Cruz
20
3%
Marco Rubio
65
11%
Rand Paul
98
17%
Ben Carson
53
9%
Carly Fiorina
18
3%
Jeb Bush
31
5%
Chris Christie
9
2%
John Kasich
42
7%
Donald Trump
151
26%
Someone else
92
16%
 
Total votes : 579

User avatar
Patridam
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5313
Founded: May 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Patridam » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:31 pm

Grenartia wrote:1. But Ike did nothing to change them, implying agreement and support. I should also mention he was the first president to warn us about the military industrial complex (and yes, he arguably did contribute to its power, however, had he not, we'd have lost MAD, which, I reluctantly admit, kept us from a nuclear war, if only barely).
2. And yet the government still had plenty of money to spend on guns and bombs and rockets and spaceflight and computers and pure research.
3. I don't agree with that, but there were enough positives to Kennedy's administration that I cannot think of a bad thing to say about the man's politics. I like to think had he not been assassinated by that traitor (to both the country and the proletariat) Oswald, he would have found a way to avoid escalation in Vietnam.


1.) Obama hasn't done anything to stop the human rights violations in North Korea, but that doesn't mean he agrees or supports them, does it? Not taking an active role in ceasing something ongoing does not mean you agree with it.
2.) That does absolutely nothing to address my point in the least.
3.) You support Ike, yet you do realize the entire situation in Vietnam came from his administration's placement of Ngo Dinh Diem as a fradulent, oppressive, cronyist, and generally terrible puppet dictator in South Vietnam in 1955.

Back to point 2: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 1554982808

rue enough, the top marginal income-tax rate in the 1950s was much higher than today's top rate of 35%—but the share of income paid by the wealthiest Americans has essentially remained flat since then.

In 1958, the top 3% of taxpayers earned 14.7% of all adjusted gross income and paid 29.2% of all federal income taxes. In 2010, the top 3% earned 27.2% of adjusted gross income and their share of all federal taxes rose proportionally, to 51%.

So if the top marginal tax rate has fallen to 35% from 91%, how in the world has the tax burden on the wealthy remained roughly the same? Two factors are responsible. Lower- and middle-income workers now bear a significantly lighter burden than in the past. And the confiscatory top marginal rates of the 1950s were essentially symbolic—very few actually paid them. In reality the vast majority of top earners faced lower effective rates than they do today.

In 1958, an 81% marginal tax rate applied to incomes above $140,000, and the 91% rate kicked in at $400,000 for couples. These figures are in unadjusted 1958 dollars and correspond today to nominal income levels that are about eight times higher. That year, according to Internal Revenue Service records, about 10,000 of the nation's 45.6 million tax filers had income that was taxed at 81% or higher. The number is an estimate and is inexact because the IRS tables list the number of tax filers by income ranges, not precisely by the number who paid at the 81% rate.


The changes came about not so much by movements in rates but by the addition of tax credits for the poor and the elimination of exemptions for the wealthy. In 1958, even the lowest-tier filers, which included everyone making up to $5,000 annually, were subjected to an effective 20% rate. Today, almost half of all tax filers have no income-tax liability whatsoever, and many "taxpayers" actually get a net refund from the government. Those nostalgic for 1950s-era "tax fairness" should bear this in mind.

The tax code of the 1950s allowed upper-income Americans to take exemptions and deductions that are unheard of today. Tax shelters were widespread, and not just for the superrich. The working wealthy—including doctors, lawyers, business owners and executives—were versed in the art of creating losses to lower their tax exposure.

For instance, a doctor who earned $50,000 through his medical practice could reduce his taxable income to zero with $50,000 in paper losses or depreciation from property he owned through a real-estate investment partnership. Huge numbers of professionals signed up for all kinds of money-losing schemes. Today, a corresponding doctor earning $500,000 can deduct a maximum of $3,000 from his taxable income, no matter how large the loss.

Those 1950s gambits lowered tax liabilities but dissuaded individuals from engaging in the more beneficial activities of increasing their incomes and expanding their businesses. As a result, they were a net drag on the economy. When Ronald Reagan finally lowered rates in the 1980s, he did so in exchange for scrapping uneconomical deductions. When business owners stopped trying to figure out how to lose money, the economy boomed.
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Prussia-Steinbach
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22386
Founded: Mar 12, 2012
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:31 pm

Bachmann America wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:They worked. Have to admit it. Just saying.

Things like like this is what I mean when I say Hitler was a leftist (also remember, national SOCIALISM) and leftists have hitlerist sympathies.

National Socialism at the beginning had pretty left-wing economics, but socially it was always extremely right-wing. Authoritarian. Nationalistic.

Hitler turned National Socialism into something even more right-wing. He moved away from any aspect of "socialism" other than supporting some degree of government control and welfare to an extent. And no leftist (except for maybe Strasserists, if you can consider them left-wing) has sympathy for Hitler, Bachmann, please don't say such indefensible things. What kind of leftist has sympathies for a man that persecuted communists and socialists?
Last edited by Prussia-Steinbach on Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Skappola
Minister
 
Posts: 2063
Founded: May 12, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Skappola » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:32 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Bachmann America wrote:What things has Obama done that are right wing?

Been a capitalist.

That's technically true, but then nearly every major candidate, president, and high-level government official in the US would also be considered Right Wing. You have to move the spectrum towards the right when talking about American politics, or it becomes confusing quickly. For most Americans, Obama is left-wing.
Last edited by Skappola on Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Political Compass: Economic: 1.63 Social: -6.72
Political Ideology: Neoliberal Civil Libertarian
I Enjoy: Blues, Paradox Games and Sci-fi

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Bachmann America
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 159
Founded: Apr 19, 2015
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Postby Bachmann America » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:33 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Bachmann America wrote:What things has Obama done that are right wing?

Been a capitalist.

Obama is a socialist.

User avatar
Prussia-Steinbach
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22386
Founded: Mar 12, 2012
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:33 pm

Skappola wrote:
Merizoc wrote:Been a capitalist.

That's technically true, but nearly every major candidate, president, and high-level government official in the US would also be considered Right Wing. You have to move the spectrum towards the right when talking about American politics, or it becomes confusing correctly. For most Americans, Obama is left-wing.

Yes, they all are right-wing

And no, we're using a rational and normal political spectrum, not the heavily-skewed and inaccurate American one.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


User avatar
Patridam
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5313
Founded: May 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Patridam » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:33 pm

Skappola wrote:I wish Herman Cain would run again. He's the only presidential candidate to reference pokemon on numerous occasions and submit a tax proposal based on Simcity.


Yeah, he'll keep everything at 9%, 9%, 9% for awhile; then when the budget gets rough its up to 11% - just enough to make good money, just to little to arouse complaints. And all the while, Hi Tech Industry is taxed at 0%.
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Prussia-Steinbach
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22386
Founded: Mar 12, 2012
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:34 pm

Bachmann America wrote:
Merizoc wrote:Been a capitalist.

Obama is a socialist.

He supports democratization of the workplace, a cooperative economy, and the people controlling the means of production? I'm going to need a source for that.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Bachmann America
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 159
Founded: Apr 19, 2015
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Postby Bachmann America » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:35 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Bachmann America wrote:What things has Obama done that are right wing?

Expanded wars, continued the capitalist system, not expanded welfare, not endorsed drug decriminalization.

1. No Obama has weakened out foreign policy and appeased our enemies.
2. Obama has tried to weaken capitalism through socialist measures like obamacare.
3. False, more people are on the govt teat than ever before.
4. Good, at least he isn't completely off the deep end on that one issue.
Last edited by Bachmann America on Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LoveIra
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Posts: 91
Founded: Mar 26, 2015
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Postby LoveIra » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:36 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Bachmann America wrote:
Leftism is the opposite of common sense. Commonsense conservatism like what Bachmann advocates is exactly what America needs

Bachmann advocates something near a return to the Dark Ages. The American Constitution provides for separation of church and state, and the Founding Fathers (largely followers of the Enlightenment and Deists) would be disgusted at people like her.

If leftism is the opposite of common sense, why does it advocate for equal rights and science?

This is an American patriotic myth especially popular among liberals.

User avatar
Patridam
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5313
Founded: May 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Patridam » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:36 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Bachmann America wrote:Obama is a socialist.

He supports democratization of the workplace, a cooperative economy, and the people controlling the means of production? I'm going to need a source for that.


He's something of a social democrat, perhaps not in actions, but in rhetoric.
Last edited by Patridam on Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lassiez Faire Capitalist / Libertarian
Past-Tech (1950s-1980s)

_[' ]_

Republican
White male, 24 yrs old
Michigan, USA
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User avatar
Prussia-Steinbach
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22386
Founded: Mar 12, 2012
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:37 pm

Bachmann America wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Expanded wars, continued the capitalist system, not expanded welfare, not endorsed drug decriminalization.

1. No Obama has weakened out foreign policy and appeased our enemies.
2. Obama has tried to weaken capitalism through socialist measures like obamacare.
3. False, more people are on the govt teat than ever before.
4. Good, at least he isn't completely off the deep end at least on one issue.

1. Nope
2. ObamaCare isn't socialist hahahahahaha
3. Still hasn't expanded welfare, as far as I know. If he has, it's been negligible.
4. You realize when all drugs are decriminalized, and punishment is changed to voluntary rehabilitation, use goes down, correct? I can source this. Opposing drug decriminalization is simply illogical.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44623
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:38 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
I like to think that if he could find a relatively peaceful solution to the Cuban Missile Crisis, he could've found a less counterproductive way to handle Vietnam.


His relatively peaceful solution was to push the world to the brink of war, then agree to take some missiles out of Turkey. I should note that if anything, the manner in which he handled that crisis was also based largely upon McNamara's advice, and only caused him to trust the man further.


It did work.

And, he did build up a decent trust with Kruschev. Who knows, maybe he could've tried to leverage that to get the Soviets to pressure North Vietnam to stop their shit.
Lib-left. Antifascist, antitankie, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist (including the imperialism of non-western countries). Christian (Unitarian Universalist). Background in physics.
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LoveIra
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Posts: 91
Founded: Mar 26, 2015
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Postby LoveIra » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:38 pm

Godular wrote:
Bachmann America wrote:
Leftism is the opposite of common sense. Commonsense conservatism like what Bachmann advocates is exactly what America needs


I just spat coke all over my monitor. I don't even drink that stuff! Your 'conservatism' is about as much common sense as standing in an incinerator to cool off.

Dont feed him.

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Skappola
Minister
 
Posts: 2063
Founded: May 12, 2013
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Postby Skappola » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:38 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Skappola wrote:That's technically true, but nearly every major candidate, president, and high-level government official in the US would also be considered Right Wing. You have to move the spectrum towards the right when talking about American politics, or it becomes confusing correctly. For most Americans, Obama is left-wing.

Yes, they all are right-wing

And no, we're using a rational and normal political spectrum, not the heavily-skewed and inaccurate American one.

So you think it's rational to put every politician in a country in a single category, thereby making it almost impossible to discern the differences political views? We're not even referencing global politics here, so it's pointless to use the global spectrum. It's much more logical to refer to the American spectrum, because it helps us differentiate between politicians. When only looking at the US, the American spectrum helps put things in context in a way that the global spectrum can't.

Actually, if you want to put the US on a truly global spectrum and not just the Eurocentric model, then the US would be left-wing - at least socially. Oppressive Dictatorships where the majority of the world's population live does a lot to pull the spectrum over to the right.
Last edited by Skappola on Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Political Compass: Economic: 1.63 Social: -6.72
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Prussia-Steinbach
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Mar 12, 2012
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:38 pm

Skappola wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Yes, they all are right-wing

And no, we're using a rational and normal political spectrum, not the heavily-skewed and inaccurate American one.

So you think it's rational to put every politician in a country in a single category, thereby making it almost impossible to discern the differences in politics? We're not even referencing global politics here, which is why it's much more logical to refer to the American spectrum. When only looking at the US, the American spectrum helps put things in context in a way that the global spectrum can't.

Actually, if you want to put the US on a truly global spectrum and not just the Eurocentric model, then the US would be left-wing - at least socially. Oppressive Dictatorships where the majority of the world's population live does a lot to pull the spectrum over to the right.

If you can't discern the difference in policies, you don't follow politics enough.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44623
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:39 pm

LoveIra wrote:Given how Obama is imperialist, the GOP is better when it comes to American foreign policy.

>Obama
>imperialist

Top kek
Lib-left. Antifascist, antitankie, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist (including the imperialism of non-western countries). Christian (Unitarian Universalist). Background in physics.
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Reject tradition, embrace modernity.
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Dyakovo
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 83162
Founded: Nov 13, 2007
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Postby Dyakovo » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:39 pm

LoveIra wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Bachmann advocates something near a return to the Dark Ages. The American Constitution provides for separation of church and state, and the Founding Fathers (largely followers of the Enlightenment and Deists) would be disgusted at people like her.

If leftism is the opposite of common sense, why does it advocate for equal rights and science?

This is an American patriotic myth especially popular among liberals.

It's not a myth.
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LoveIra
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Founded: Mar 26, 2015
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Postby LoveIra » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:40 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Bachmann America wrote:What things has Obama done that are right wing?

Expanded wars, continued the capitalist system, not expanded welfare, not endorsed drug decriminalization.

Maybe we should all first agree that American standard of what is left is not the same as in Europe. This would help this debate a lot.

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Skappola
Minister
 
Posts: 2063
Founded: May 12, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Skappola » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:40 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Skappola wrote:So you think it's rational to put every politician in a country in a single category, thereby making it almost impossible to discern the differences in politics? We're not even referencing global politics here, which is why it's much more logical to refer to the American spectrum. When only looking at the US, the American spectrum helps put things in context in a way that the global spectrum can't.

Actually, if you want to put the US on a truly global spectrum and not just the Eurocentric model, then the US would be left-wing - at least socially. Oppressive Dictatorships where the majority of the world's population live does a lot to pull the spectrum over to the right.

If you can't discern the difference in policies, you don't follow politics enough.

By that logic, why do we even have a spectrum? Sure, it makes it easier to discern differences in policies, but you should know that already.
Political Compass: Economic: 1.63 Social: -6.72
Political Ideology: Neoliberal Civil Libertarian
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Greater Istanistan
Senator
 
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Founded: May 15, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Greater Istanistan » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:41 pm

Unlikely, considering that the Soviets were flat-out encouraging them and that the entirety of the North Vietnamese state's rhetoric and legitimacy was devoted to/staked upon claiming the South.

And even if the Soviets had tried to stop them, China would have just egged them on and made up for any cuts in Soviet military aid.

I think not.
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Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44623
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:41 pm

Warcilia wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Look how well that worked out in the late 30s.


No you dumb fuck. If the US lets ISIS unite the middle east, terrorist groups will have a solid foundation to carry out attacks on the western world. The US is the only superpower left. Without them the world would be screwed. They one WW2 for us. They contained communism for us.


I have no clue what the fuck you're responding to, but it certainly isn't anything I've actually said. And in fact, you appear to be saying things I actually agree with.
Lib-left. Antifascist, antitankie, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist (including the imperialism of non-western countries). Christian (Unitarian Universalist). Background in physics.
Mostly a girl. She or they pronouns, please. Unrepentant transbian.
Reject tradition, embrace modernity.
People who call themselves based NEVER are.
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Skappola
Minister
 
Posts: 2063
Founded: May 12, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Skappola » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:41 pm

Patridam wrote:
Skappola wrote:I wish Herman Cain would run again. He's the only presidential candidate to reference pokemon on numerous occasions and submit a tax proposal based on Simcity.


Yeah, he'll keep everything at 9%, 9%, 9% for awhile; then when the budget gets rough its up to 11% - just enough to make good money, just to little to arouse complaints. And all the while, Hi Tech Industry is taxed at 0%.

Hey, you do what you must to grow your city - as long as it doesn't involve Dr. Vu.
Political Compass: Economic: 1.63 Social: -6.72
Political Ideology: Neoliberal Civil Libertarian
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Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44623
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:42 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
I like to think that if he could find a relatively peaceful solution to the Cuban Missile Crisis, he could've found a less counterproductive way to handle Vietnam.

He didn't find a relatively peaceful resolution to the Cuban Missile Crisis. He stumbled into one despite pushing us on a course to war with the Soviet Union.


What would you have done differently, then?
Lib-left. Antifascist, antitankie, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist (including the imperialism of non-western countries). Christian (Unitarian Universalist). Background in physics.
Mostly a girl. She or they pronouns, please. Unrepentant transbian.
Reject tradition, embrace modernity.
People who call themselves based NEVER are.
The truth about kids transitioning.

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Prussia-Steinbach
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22386
Founded: Mar 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:43 pm

LoveIra wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Bachmann advocates something near a return to the Dark Ages. The American Constitution provides for separation of church and state, and the Founding Fathers (largely followers of the Enlightenment and Deists) would be disgusted at people like her.

If leftism is the opposite of common sense, why does it advocate for equal rights and science?

This is an American patriotic myth especially popular among liberals.

No...?

First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." There's your separation of church and state.

Now. Founding Fathers weren't devout Christians. Source. I've written papers on this.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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LoveIra
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Founded: Mar 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby LoveIra » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:43 pm

Grenartia wrote:
LoveIra wrote:Given how Obama is imperialist, the GOP is better when it comes to American foreign policy.

>Obama
>imperialist

Top kek

Coup in Ukraine, the Islamistic Arab Spring, killing of civilians in Libya etc.

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