Air Force vet arrested for trying to stop flag desecration

[Myrensis]

If we're going to get litigious about this, then let's let the other side have a shot. The flag is considered a living symbol of the country it represents, as the US Flag Code states. Subsection 8 is as follows:

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
... j.No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing....

In stomping on the flag, this is considered disrespect, and some might argue desecration. In taking the flag, which was no longer being used for its intended purpose (display) and was being infringed upon for the purpose of disrespect (stomping on an improperly disposed of burning flag), the AF vet was breaking up an illegal public disturbance. Not violating MUH RITES.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe Faux News' jingoism as much as the next free thinker, but this leftist cherry picking really gets to me. If you want people to obey the law, then please obey the law, don't decide that you get to be above it and look down on those who try to enforce it as fascists.

Only as long as the 'patriots' who get all hot and bothered about the 'disrespecting the flag' stop cherry picking as well.

The flag should not be used as "wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery", or for covering a speaker's desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general (exception for coffins).
The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use.

So the next time you see a patriot wearing a flag pin, or clothing with the flag on it, or displaying anything other than an actual flag, by all means feel free to rip it away from them for their desecration, illegal public disturbance, and violation of the law.

[AiliailiA]

If we're going to get litigious about this, then let's let the other side have a shot. The flag is considered a living symbol of the country it represents, as the US Flag Code states. Subsection 8 is as follows:

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
... j.No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing....

In stomping on the flag, this is considered disrespect, and some might argue desecration. In taking the flag, which was no longer being used for its intended purpose (display) and was being infringed upon for the purpose of disrespect (stomping on an improperly disposed of burning flag), the AF vet was breaking up an illegal public disturbance. Not violating MUH RITES.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe Faux News' jingoism as much as the next free thinker, but this leftist cherry picking really gets to me. If you want people to obey the law, then please obey the law, don't decide that you get to be above it and look down on those who try to enforce it as fascists.

Violating the Flag Code is not illegal. Texas v. Johnson

[Old Tyrannia]

I sympathise with the veteran in question but I also accept that the protesters had the right to free expression. Burning flags is rude and offensive, but being rude and offensive isn't against the law in civilised nations.

See, this is what happened when you left the empire. Rather than having her Maj' to put your sense of nationalism into, you were left with just a damned flag. And this is where you end up.

Wouldn't have happened with a monarch because we don't really care about our flag.

Aye. This news story makes much more sense if you think of tge American flag as basically being a substitute monarch. Of course an RAF veteran would intervene to stop a group of student protesters trampling on the Queen. It would be their duty.

[New Skaaneland]

Fair play to Michelle.

[Fartsniffage]

See, this is what happened when you left the empire. Rather than having her Maj' to put your sense of nationalism into, you were left with just a damned flag. And this is where you end up.

Wouldn't have happened with a monarch because we don't really care about our flag.

One imagines that stamping on Lizzy would carry some penalties rather on the stiff side...

[Zakuvia]

So the next time you see a patriot wearing a flag pin, or clothing with the flag on it, or displaying anything other than an actual flag, by all means feel free to rip it away from them for their desecration, illegal public disturbance, and violation of the law.

I get what you're saying, so I won't nitpick about how wearing pins (so long as they're on the left side) is allowed.

And I agree with you in the rest of the statement as well, though you may roll your eyes. I dislike seeing Teabaggers wearing flag themed clothing, etc., because even though I understand the sentiment, it's still in poor form. Also, yes, even a Marine carrying his baby in a flag, while 'd'aww' worthy, is still a no-no, because it can't be used to carry anything, either.

Also, I giggled on the 'Lizzy' comment, because I thought of the exact same thing.

[Imperializt Russia]

See, this is what happened when you left the empire. Rather than having her Maj' to put your sense of nationalism into, you were left with just a damned flag. And this is where you end up.

Wouldn't have happened with a monarch because we don't really care about our flag.

One imagines that stamping on Lizzy would carry some penalties rather on the stiff side...

Also a somewhat stiff inquiry as to how working-class students were able to trample the Defender of the Faith in the first place.

[Ermarian]

Don’t tread on this flag.

That’s the message Air Force veteran and former Playboy model Michelle Manhart says she was trying to convey by picking up a damaged flag that protesters had been stomping on in a demonstration at Valdosta State University in southern Georgia on Friday.

But before she could spirit the flag away, police officers intervened to return the Old Glory to the protesters who were trampling it and escort Manhart off the premises, according to a video of the incident Manhart has posted to Facebook.

The video shows her walking away with the flag briefly as police converge. Manhart, who is white, and the protestors, all of whom are African-American, jaw at one another in the taped incident.

“You enslaved our people,” one of the demonstrators says. “You put us in this white supremacist place. And you’re stealing our flag now.”

A protester also grabs on to the flag’s pole in an attempt to claim it back, but the demonstrators eventually give way as three cops wrestle Manhart to the ground in the footage.

“We gave you a lawful command to let go of this flag, m’am,” one police officer tells Manhart. “This flag does not belong to you.”

The officers handcuffed her and gave the flag back to the applauding demonstrators. But Manhart calls one of the cops a “spiny piece of s---” before being led away to a police cruiser in the video.

Neither the demonstrators nor the police decided to press charges against Manhart, but she did receive a campus trespass warning that bars her from campus activities, university spokesman Andy Clark told The Valdosta Daily Times.

A defiant Manhart told the local newspaper that she’s planning her own event to show support for the military and the Stars and Stripes on Wednesday. She said she doesn’t approve of Supreme Court rulings that protect flag trampling and flag burning as free speech under the First Amendment, according to the Daily Times.

“The bald eagle is a symbol of our country, and back in the 80s it was put on the endangered species list,” Manhart said. “You can’t touch that bird. It’s illegal. If we can do that with a bird, why can’t we place that same value on the flag?”

University officials, on the other hand, affirmed the protesters’ right to stomp on the flag but made it clear that they too disapproved of desecrating it.

“The American flag represents everything that is best about our country,” Dr. William J. McKinney, president of Valdosta State, said in a statement posted on the university's Facebook page. “As the Supreme Court has held, one of those things is the right to free speech, which includes the right to disrespect even the symbol of our country. While I firmly disagree with the actions of the protesters, I understand their right to protest.”

Manhart, a one-time military instructor in the Air Force, resigned from the service in 2008 after receiving a reprimand and a demotion for her naked pictures in Playboy magazine the year before, the Daily Times reported.

So, an Air Force veteran was hauled away in handcuffs for refusing to allow protesters to desecrate an American flag. No charges were filed against her, but the university banned her from ever returning to campus grounds.

Here's the topics for discussion: Should the protesters have been trampling over the flag? Should she have tried to take the flag? Should the police have arrested her for taking the flag? Should the university have banned her from ever returning?

My opinion: I think this woman only did was any righteous and patriotic person would do, and I applaud her for standing up to these lowlifes. I am disgusted at these protesters for showing such disrespect and contempt for the symbol of the very nation that gives them the right to show that disrespect and contempt. The campus policemen were doing their jobs, however the university seems to be siding with the protesters by banning the woman from the campus.

Your thoughts?

She showed a pretty blatant disrespect to the flag by perverting its meaning. Having freedom of speech, including the freedom to desecrate it, is the whole point. The piece of cloth is meaningless compared to what it is supposed to stand for.

[New Skaaneland]

I think the above argument is a valid one. It's just that I respect Michelle Manhart.

To name someone else though, I don't respect Barrack Obama.

[Imperializt Russia]

I think the above argument is a valid one. It's just that I respect Michelle Manhart.

To name someone else though, I don't respect Barrack Obama.

How was that possibly relevant.

[Scandinavian Nations]

I wonder if any of these illustrious futures of our nation had their education funded by the very country they so despise.

[Ifreann]

Maybe she'll realize how worthless the flag is seeing as how the people and "values" it's supposed to represent desecrate it with impunity.

America is dead,it's just on life support.

When a soldier gets arrested for trying to defend their National Flag is the day you realize what the fucks even the point of fighting on behalf of idiots like that?

She's not a soldier. She was in the Air Force.

---

If we're going to get litigious about this, then let's let the other side have a shot. The flag is considered a living symbol of the country it represents, as the US Flag Code states. Subsection 8 is as follows:

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
... j.No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing....

In stomping on the flag, this is considered disrespect, and some might argue desecration. In taking the flag, which was no longer being used for its intended purpose (display) and was being infringed upon for the purpose of disrespect (stomping on an improperly disposed of burning flag), the AF vet was breaking up an illegal public disturbance. Not violating MUH RITES.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe Faux News' jingoism as much as the next free thinker, but this leftist cherry picking really gets to me. If you want people to obey the law, then please obey the law, don't decide that you get to be above it and look down on those who try to enforce it as fascists.

Violating the Flag Code is not illegal. Texas v. Johnson

Typical leftist cherry picking.

[Pope Joan]

She picked something up off the ground that was being stomped on like a piece of trash. She was asked to hand it back so they could continue to use it in their protest. She refused because she didn't want to see it damaged. That's remarkably different to her stealing the flag because she wanted to sell it or keep it or any of the usual reasons which people commit theft for. If she committed a crime, it was disobeying a lawful order. I'm a little confused as to why we can't discuss the issue as a whole and not break down each of her actions into specific crimes, because doing that plays up the entire issue much more than what it needs to be. I'm sure she and the protesters jostled with each other as well, yet nobody is crying assault?

No, it's not. She took something that didn't belong to her. She was told to give it back. She refused.

But hey, if you feel that way can I have your address? I'll steal all the stuff from your house. Not out of greed or any of the "usual reasons", but only because I truly want to help you understand that dangers of materialism. You respect that right, and won't get bogged down on the issue of 'specific crimes'?

A friend took all our food away in order to teach us the dangers of material attachment. He was a Buddhist.

Then he ate that food.

If you are going to teach lessons, you had better be of admirable character.

[Wombocombo]

Did Texas Vs Johnson decide defacing a flag in general was fine or only burning it? That might be important.

[Scandinavian Nations]

But hey, if you feel that way can I have your address? I'll steal all the stuff from your house.

False analogy.

The flag was not being handled with due diligence, as stuff in one's house is. It was thrown out into the dirt, being trampled over and destroyed. By what a reasonable observer could conclude, it constituted abandoned property. She had no reason to believe that any one of the persons trying to take the flag away from her was the original purchaser, seeing how it's been lying around for 3 days, and seeing how none of them made such a claim.

This is analogous to "stealing" out of a dumpster - an act well established to be above board.
Had someone tried to bring charges against her, they would've almost certainly been dismissed, not even getting to trial.

And that's the only reason they didn't bring charges. People living in glass houses... in this case, a glass house financed wholly by and at the sole discretion of the very country they're displaying their hatred of.

[Ifreann]

Did Texas Vs Johnson decide defacing a flag in general was fine or only burning it? That might be important.

It ruled flag desecration laws to be unconstitutional.

[Wombocombo]

Did Texas Vs Johnson decide defacing a flag in general was fine or only burning it? That might be important.

It ruled flag desecration laws to be unconstitutional.

So the woman acted out of conduct I would think?
If she is a Vet she should understand she defends the constitution/whatever they tell soldiers these days and that is apart of it. Just because she doesn't like it doesn't mean she should stop it.

[Ifreann]

But hey, if you feel that way can I have your address? I'll steal all the stuff from your house.

False analogy.

The flag was not being handled with due diligence, as stuff in one's house is. It was thrown out into the dirt, being trampled over and destroyed. By what a reasonable observer could conclude, it constituted abandoned property.

A reasonable observer could only conclude that the flag was being used as part of the protest they would necessarily also be observing.

She had no reason to believe that any one of the persons trying to take the flag away from her was the original purchaser, seeing how it's been lying around for 3 days, and seeing how none of them made such a claim.

Lying around for three days? What?

This is analogous to "stealing" out of a dumpster - an act well established to be above board.

No, it's not.

Had someone tried to bring charges against her, they would've almost certainly been dismissed, not even getting to trial.

I doubt that highly.

And that's the only reason they didn't bring charges. People living in glass houses... in this case, a glass house financed wholly by and at the sole discretion of the very country they're displaying their hatred of.

I expect they didn't bring charges because they got their flag right back.

[Ifreann]

It ruled flag desecration laws to be unconstitutional.

So the woman acted out of conduct I would think?

Yes. She was trying to stop people from engaging in a perfectly legal protest.

If she is a Vet she should understand she defends the constitution/whatever they tell soldiers these days and that is apart of it. Just because she doesn't like it doesn't mean she should stop it.

Indeed she should understand that. That she does not appear to is one reason why I believe her to be a moron.

[Scandinavian Nations]

Lying around for three days? What?

http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/04/19/to ... esecration

Manhart learned about the flag desecration last week. A family acquaintance told her the demonstrators had been trampling on the flag for three days. So Manhart called the university to complain. She said she was told the matter would be investigated.

On April 17th Manhart learned the demonstrators had once again desecrated the flag - so she drove to the campus and eventually took matters into her own hands. She brought along her 19-year-old daughter who filmed the entire incident.

“I walked up, picked up the flag and walked away,” she said.

The video shows Manhart being surrounded by angry screaming protesters. An unidentified demonstrator grabs the flag - but Manhart refused to let go.

The unidentified demonstrator committed assault - only the flag's rightful owner had the right to grab it and try taking it away from her.

I doubt that highly.

And what charge would that be?

Specifically. What charge could the college, not being the rightful owner of the flag, bring against her?

[The New Sea Territory]

Well that's awfully nice of you. She (presumably) served overseas, and fought in her country's air force. She didn't "kill other people for a living" because as it so happens, most military positions don't pay much, which is why most people don't sign on for that. They sign on because they believe that protecting one's country is a worthwhile and noble occupation.

Whether or not she served in an overseas campaign that America probably shouldn't be involved with does not change the fact that she's a servicewoman. A lot of people think highly of that occupation, and with good reason.

You can fluff it up as you please. This doesn't make killing people anymore noble.

[Timsvill]

My family has a tradition of each generation of kids, having one of them go into the military, its not a tradition. It's a choice. A choice my grandpa made, my dad made, my brother (idoits) has made (he's still in college, he's at west point). I have a lot of respect for the military, and the military who decide to make the choice to serve. I respect the military, and I love my country and what it stands for. Along with the flag. Hearing about a vet who was trying to keep the flag from being vandalized and the police saying "This flag doesn't belong to you!" really got to me. The flag belongs to every american! The fact they the police arrested a vet trying to do the right thing and stop the destruction of the flag , is bad. You shouldn't be arrested for doing the right thing.

[Imperializt Russia]

Lying around for three days? What?

http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/04/19/to ... esecration

Manhart learned about the flag desecration last week. A family acquaintance told her the demonstrators had been trampling on the flag for three days. So Manhart called the university to complain. She said she was told the matter would be investigated.

On April 17th Manhart learned the demonstrators had once again desecrated the flag - so she drove to the campus and eventually took matters into her own hands. She brought along her 19-year-old daughter who filmed the entire incident.

“I walked up, picked up the flag and walked away,” she said.

The video shows Manhart being surrounded by angry screaming protesters. An unidentified demonstrator grabs the flag - but Manhart refused to let go.

The unidentified demonstrator committed assault - only the flag's rightful owner had the right to grab it and try taking it away from her.

Whoever it was, it wasn't Manhart.

[The New Sea Territory]

Yes you have the right to burn or stop on the flag, but it's disrespectful to the country.

Yes, you're free...but don't actually use that freedom. That would be bad.

[Arcanda]

Don’t tread on this flag.

That’s the message Air Force veteran and former Playboy model Michelle Manhart says she was trying to convey by picking up a damaged flag that protesters had been stomping on in a demonstration at Valdosta State University in southern Georgia on Friday.

But before she could spirit the flag away, police officers intervened to return the Old Glory to the protesters who were trampling it and escort Manhart off the premises, according to a video of the incident Manhart has posted to Facebook.

The video shows her walking away with the flag briefly as police converge. Manhart, who is white, and the protestors, all of whom are African-American, jaw at one another in the taped incident.

“You enslaved our people,” one of the demonstrators says. “You put us in this white supremacist place. And you’re stealing our flag now.”

A protester also grabs on to the flag’s pole in an attempt to claim it back, but the demonstrators eventually give way as three cops wrestle Manhart to the ground in the footage.

“We gave you a lawful command to let go of this flag, m’am,” one police officer tells Manhart. “This flag does not belong to you.”

The officers handcuffed her and gave the flag back to the applauding demonstrators. But Manhart calls one of the cops a “spiny piece of s---” before being led away to a police cruiser in the video.

Neither the demonstrators nor the police decided to press charges against Manhart, but she did receive a campus trespass warning that bars her from campus activities, university spokesman Andy Clark told The Valdosta Daily Times.

A defiant Manhart told the local newspaper that she’s planning her own event to show support for the military and the Stars and Stripes on Wednesday. She said she doesn’t approve of Supreme Court rulings that protect flag trampling and flag burning as free speech under the First Amendment, according to the Daily Times.

“The bald eagle is a symbol of our country, and back in the 80s it was put on the endangered species list,” Manhart said. “You can’t touch that bird. It’s illegal. If we can do that with a bird, why can’t we place that same value on the flag?”

University officials, on the other hand, affirmed the protesters’ right to stomp on the flag but made it clear that they too disapproved of desecrating it.

“The American flag represents everything that is best about our country,” Dr. William J. McKinney, president of Valdosta State, said in a statement posted on the university's Facebook page. “As the Supreme Court has held, one of those things is the right to free speech, which includes the right to disrespect even the symbol of our country. While I firmly disagree with the actions of the protesters, I understand their right to protest.”

Manhart, a one-time military instructor in the Air Force, resigned from the service in 2008 after receiving a reprimand and a demotion for her naked pictures in Playboy magazine the year before, the Daily Times reported.

So, an Air Force veteran was hauled away in handcuffs for refusing to allow protesters to desecrate an American flag. No charges were filed against her, but the university banned her from ever returning to campus grounds.

Here's the topics for discussion: Should the protesters have been trampling over the flag? Should she have tried to take the flag? Should the police have arrested her for taking the flag? Should the university have banned her from ever returning?

My opinion: I think this woman only did was any righteous and patriotic person would do, and I applaud her for standing up to these lowlifes. I am disgusted at these protesters for showing such disrespect and contempt for the symbol of the very nation that gives them the right to show that disrespect and contempt. The campus policemen were doing their jobs, however the university seems to be siding with the protesters by banning the woman from the campus.

Your thoughts?

I think it is part of the student's inherent rights to stomp, disrespect and "desecrate" the US flag.
Let's look at it this way: The star-sprangled banner stands for freedom, liberty and unity.
Yes, even the freedom to trample it.And that's what makes the US a great place.

While all parties have made clear their own point- And while I don't approve of the students' actions, either -I believe it was their right to do it, and that the police did a good job.