Bible citations on military gun sights

[Blitzkrenia]

How... bizzarre. Bible references have no place on weapons, why is it that the weird stuff nearly always comes from America? Bible references on guns... America, playing rock music in tanks whilst killing people... America.

Because America is America?

[Daemonicai]

How... bizzarre. Bible references have no place on weapons, why is it that the weird stuff nearly always comes from America? Bible references on guns... America, playing rock music in tanks whilst killing people... America.

Because while the Americans aren't as professional as other countries, such as the UK, they make it a mission to be badass.

If I chose to inscribe something on my gun, I'd put (especially on a rapid-fire weapon) "There's a bullet here with your name on it, and I'm gonna keep on firing until I find out which one it is."

[Gun Manufacturers]

何だHELL?!

NZ army to remove Bible citations from armaments
By RAY LILLEY, Associated Press Writer

Wednesday, January 20, 2010

(01-20) 22:54 PST WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) --

New Zealand said Thursday that Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed, saying they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions.

The inscriptions on products from defense contractor Trijicon of Wixom, Michigan, came to light this week in the U.S. where Army officials said Tuesday they would investigate whether the gun sights — also used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — violate U.S. procurement laws.

Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said that Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and that the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.

"The inscriptions ... put us in a difficult situation. We were unaware of it and we're unhappy that the manufacturer didn't give us any indication that these were on there," Dunne said. "We deem them to be inappropriate."

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by New Zealand troops, which allow them to pinpoint tragets day or night, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.

Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Dunne said that New Zealand's defense force has about 260 of the company's gun sights, which were first bought in 2004, and will continue to use them once the inscriptions are removed because they are the best of their kind.

New Zealand Prime Minister John Key said the government was not aware of the inscriptions when the defense force bought the equipment.

"Now we are in discussions with the company in the United States who will ensure the inscriptions are removed, and we wouldn't want them on future sights," he told reporters.

Earlier, Defense Minister Wayne Mapp said that with New Zealand soldiers in Muslim countries, the Bible references could be misconstrued.

"We all know of the religious tensions around this issue and it's unwise to do anything that could be seen to raise tensions in an unnecessary way," he said.

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company had never received complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

Trijicon said biblical references were first put on the sites nearly 30 years ago by the company founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, continued the practice.

The references have stoked concerns by critics in the U.S. about whether they break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But U.S. military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and that they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 305S37.DTL

You know, I can accept In-N-Out putting then on their cups, wrappers, and trays. I don't mind seeing them on t-shirts, stickers, or the like... but on something made to kill people? REALLY?

They should have put John 11:35.

Ignoring the whole government/religion debate, what do you think about stamping Bible verses on weapons?

If the US military wants to dump their ACOGs cheap because of this, I'd be interested in picking one up. The fact that there's bible references using raised lettering on the body doesn't bother me.

[Meoton]

How... bizzarre. Bible references have no place on weapons, why is it that the weird stuff nearly always comes from America? Bible references on guns... America, playing rock music in tanks whilst killing people... America.

EDIT: "AMERICA! $*#@ YEAH!!
But it makes them more effective against vampires, zombies, demons, and heathens. Just sayin'.

[Wallonochia]

Because while the Americans aren't as professional as other countries, such as the UK

[Mean Feat]

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

Psalms 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me.

- As quoted by Jackson in Saving Private Ryan

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Mathew 26:52
You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. Matthew 5:38-42
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. Luke 6:27-31

I do agree that it is good teaching to honor the words of Jesus above those of the Old Testament.

But my brother in law disagrees with me (sometimes it feels like when a bad hamburger disagrees with me) and says that every bible verse is equal to every other one.

I just find it very repugnant, especially as Jesus' views on the subject are so well know, but to put His words on something meant to help kill...

Serves him right for not writing the book himself.

Jesus by all accounts was a most righteous dude. Smart, personable, made friends like nobody's business.

Jesus had a job, and lived with his mother into middle age. He had plenty of opportunity to write a good book. But no. He had more important and immediate work to do, trying to start a revolution. He couldn't spare the time to learn to write, and do properly the job he was born to do, which by your terms was to deliver God's word.

He couldn't even get his shit together enough to employ a scribe. If this bumbler is the Son of God, who knows what incompetence that God is capable of ?

[Blitzkrenia]

How... bizzarre. Bible references have no place on weapons, why is it that the weird stuff nearly always comes from America? Bible references on guns... America, playing rock music in tanks whilst killing people... America.

EDIT: "AMERICA! $*#@ YEAH!!
But it makes them more effective against vampires, zombies, demons, and heathens. Just sayin'.

But not the sparkly ones. Unfortunately.

[Blouman Empire]

I'd personally be more in favour of Judges 1:19 - as best illustrated on this page and the following two. Mainly because it's so breathtakingly bizarre.

Seems to mostly involve the Israelites slaughtering people (except those with iron chariots, who they couldn't defeat).

Not only that - an illustration that with the right weaponry, even God can't beat you. Slightly different message to the verses attached to the gun sights in question.

The Jews mentioned in Judges had sniper rifles?

[Blouman Empire]

Not sure about that. Bible verses are usually given in moderately recognisable style, even when they're abbreviated as in this case. And it's worth considering that while America regularly denies that there's a religious element to its campaigns in these regions, the people it's fighting often seem to think otherwise. Afghans aren't all ignorant sheep-herders, and you might find that this reference is more recognisable than you think. What many of them don't have is Internet access, so if one of these sights finds its way into their hands, they might be unaware of the debate that's gone on here (and no doubt elsewhere), and it could be just the evidence they need to show their people that, look, the conflict does have a religious motivation.

Aside from being in hugely bad taste, as others have said, this does have the potential to serve as a propaganda tool for America's opponents.

Yes because NSG has all this power and influence.

I doubt very many people that don't participate on NSG know of the debates that happen on here.

[Meoton]

How... bizzarre. Bible references have no place on weapons, why is it that the weird stuff nearly always comes from America? Bible references on guns... America, playing rock music in tanks whilst killing people... America.

EDIT: "AMERICA! $*#@ YEAH!!
But it makes them more effective against vampires, zombies, demons, and heathens. Just sayin'.

But not the sparkly ones. Unfortunately.

If the actor that plays one is cast as the new Spiderman, would that make him The Sparkly Spiderman instead of the Amazing Spiderman?

Remember to beat your plowshares into bullets. It's the Apocryphal way. Yeah! We're in the end times and we will do what ever it takes to make it happen! America! F@$K Yeah! Watch Jesus Camp and you'll know why bible verses end up on gun sights.

[Blouman Empire]

Ever heard of The Soviet Union? AKA the atheist country with an army larger than ours?

It's nationalism.

Absurd.

In the 1980s the Soviets had more troops than any other country in the history of the world. About half of them were atheists.

Source?

[Grandais]

"Common knowledge".

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

Considering that both the NZ and the US have said they need the scopes because they are the best on planet and the company has been putting the scripts on their products for the last 40 years making it a tradition.
The solution is simple, barring the two govts choosing to buy inferior scopes from other companies, the company can continue putting the scriptures on the scopes. The two govts can continue buying the scopes and then process them to have the Bible references removed by their own personnel.

That way it is a win win for everyone. By having people remove the references, you are creating jobs thus helping to stimulate the economy.

[My 3rd Floor Flat]

Ever heard of The Soviet Union? AKA the atheist country with an army larger than ours?

It's nationalism.

Absurd.

In the 1980s the Soviets had more troops than any other country in the history of the world. About half of them were atheists.

Source?

Officially the U.S.S.R was atheist, and thus it's army was considered atheist. Whether or not people actually held to atheist values themselves or just kept their faith to themselves I don't know. Although to be fair communism in the Soviet Union was in itself a form of state religion.

[Greed and Death]

What are the citations doing on weapons in the first place?

I wish I knew.

It helps you shoot.
I normally repeat lines from the Bhagavad Gita.
the religious types feel it is god helping them.
I just think religion has an affect on the brain which causes the body to relax.

[Blouman Empire]

Officially the U.S.S.R was atheist, and thus it's army was considered atheist. Whether or not people actually held to atheist values themselves or just kept their faith to themselves I don't know. Although to be fair communism in the Soviet Union was in itself a form of state religion.

Yes but does that mean 50% of the personnel were atheist?

[Offworlders]

Actually Wixom does kinda surprise me, I'd expect this more from west coast towns like Holland or Kzoo.

I’d expect it more from Wizom than Kalamazoo. I’ve met people from both.

Now, if you’d said Jackson...

How... bizzarre. Bible references have no place on weapons, why is it that the weird stuff nearly always comes from America? Bible references on guns... America, playing rock music in tanks whilst killing people... America.

If you think America is weird, take a look at Japan.

[The Alma Mater]

How... bizzarre. Bible references have no place on weapons

Well, I can imagine people liking the idea.
But using weapons with Bible inscriptions to fight in countries that already claim you are "crusading" is... stupid.

[My 3rd Floor Flat]

Officially the U.S.S.R was atheist, and thus it's army was considered atheist. Whether or not people actually held to atheist values themselves or just kept their faith to themselves I don't know. Although to be fair communism in the Soviet Union was in itself a form of state religion.

Yes but does that mean 50% of the personnel were atheist?

Not a clue. I'd imagine that a significant amount of them would have been dedicated to communism and the state and put little thought in religion, but then again once freedom of religion was allowed once more it showed quite a good surge amongst the population.

How... bizzarre. Bible references have no place on weapons, why is it that the weird stuff nearly always comes from America? Bible references on guns... America, playing rock music in tanks whilst killing people... America.

If you think America is weird, take a look at Japan.[/quote]

Then I shall revise my above statement.

Japan is weird.

America is prone to barbaric tendencies.

[Wallonochia]

That way it is a win win for everyone. By having people remove the references, you are creating jobs thus helping to stimulate the economy.

They wouldn't hire people to remove them, they'd just make their soldiers stay a couple of hours later than normal and scrape the numbers off. Or make the extra duty kids do it.

I’d expect it more from Wizom than Kalamazoo. I’ve met people from both.

Now, if you’d said Jackson...

I think we can both agree that Holland is the most likely place for such craziness.

[Glorious Freedonia]

"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition and we will all stay free." We need more scripture on our weaponry.

[Andaluciae]

John 9:39 would be cooler. Or maybe Luke 21:20. Or maybe even Revelations 16:1, and thats just the stuff in the new testament

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." Rev 16:1

There is so much excellent smiting in the Bible that if it's a smite-tastic passage that the firm has adopted as their motto, then I'd be cool with it. Otherwise, if they're trying to "spread the word" it's sketch on military firearms.

[Farnhamia]

Frankly, instead of the verse from John, a soldier might want Psalm 46, verse 9:

He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

After all, isn't peace what every soldier desires?

[Yootopia]

After all, isn't peace what every soldier desires?

Consider mercenaries and chaps like Mussolini - most of soldiers want peace, but some people are turned into a very specific kind of War Radge by protracted conflict.

[Farnhamia]

After all, isn't peace what every soldier desires?

Consider mercenaries and chaps like Mussolini - most of soldiers want peace, but some people are turned into a very specific kind of War Radge by protracted conflict.

Well, I was being a tad sarcastic with that last. And I suppose that if war went away, all those arms manufacturers would go out of business, causing terrible harship for their wives, families, mistresses ...