Bible citations on military gun sights

[The Parkus Empire]

The only other thing I can say is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZs61VCJvTg

That's a favorite of mine, but it seems strange it has aircraft in that video when the song is of a naval nature (aside from it's reference to a Navy pilot, i.e. "the sky pilot"). Also, the lyrics cards say "tradition" when the correct lyrics are: "perdition and the deep, blue sea."

[Neu Mitanni]

The only other thing I can say is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZs61VCJvTg

That's a favorite of mine, but it seems strange it has aircraft in that video when the song is of a naval nature (aside from it's reference to a Navy pilot, i.e. "the sky pilot"). Also, the lyrics cards say "tradition" when the correct lyrics are: "perdition and the deep, blue sea."

Yeah, I caught that. So did some other posters for that video. But "sky pilot" was actually a (less than flattering) WWII slang term for any military chaplain.

[Namabia]

I think unless you're a theocracy or something it's okay, but I don't think the US should issue military weapons with bible verses inscripted on them, but they should allow the soldiers to do it if they want to their own weapons

This.

[WhatchaTalkinBout]

God says: "DIE! DIE AND GO TO HELL!"

[The Parkus Empire]

Yeah, I caught that. So did some other posters for that video. But "sky pilot" was actually a (less than flattering) WWII slang term for any military chaplain.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I've met several military chaplains and I've disliked most of them. When I was stationed in Alabama, I had a truly awesome one, though; very cool sermons. The trouble with most military chaplains is that they're too presumptuous, explaining things in a way that assumes their listeners have not read a word of the Bible; but the one in Alabama presented his points with a fine explanation that didn't assume the listeners were total ignoramuses.

[L3 Communications]

God says: "DIE! DIE AND GO TO HELL!"

Your flag scared me. ; - ;

[The Parkus Empire]

It bothered me, too, but not as much as the inanity of the post did. >><

[Tirovia]

i heard that they were verse numbers.. and so what... America is a predominantly christian country...

If by that you mean that Christianity is the majority religion in America, no doubt you're right. If you mean that America should present itself as a 'Christian nation' then there are a lot of Americans - including many Christians - who would disagree quite fiercely.

There is an aggressive, isolationist, xenophobic strain of apocalyptic 'Christianity' (or pseudo-Christianity) in America which, if left unrestrained, would be no less a threat to national and global stability than the most frothingly insane 'Islamist' terror group.

I speak as someone who's generally supportive of religion, and disagree strongly with the simplistic atheistic tenets that 'religion causes all wars', or that religious people are inevitably stupid, violent and/or mentally ill. But that doesn't mean I think that a religious person can't be stupid, violent and/or mentally ill.

You know, if you get pissed off enough to shoot at somebody because of a Bible verse in the serial number of their scope, you should probably be killed because it's unlikely you're anything more than a worthless religious fanatic with no future. I don't think we're going to win over their hearts and minds, to say the least.

I'd agree. But the issue here is whether it's wise - much less tasteful - to send soldiers into a theatre of operations in which at least one side is trying to make it All About Religion with religious references stamped on their weapons. The war might not be a Crusade Against Islam, but if opposition strategy relies heavily on generating local support by using propaganda to make people believe that it is, you probably want to avoid doing anything that might assist that propaganda effort.

I don't see what the big deal is. If I was in the military I doubt I'd even notice those little letters... Let alone know what they mean.

I probably wouldn't have noticed them if someone hadn't pointed out what they meant. But once someone did point out what they meant, I'd be even more pissed off that I'd been made to carry religious references of someone else's faith in a theatre where religion is seen as a significant point of contention.

I think the only people who could construe this to be offensive are the ignorant, easily angered, or fearful. If you should read the verses they use one would see that they are using ones that directly refer to the purpose of a scope. Especially one that allows pin point targeting in day or night. Its intent is not for a holy war but to say,"Hey look at this unique and cool thing we do."
(...) I'm Jewish, on a scale of offensive this barely scratches a .0000000000000001. I would in fact make sure to use this scope from now on. Its not like the inscription changes the dynamics of the scope.

I'm pagan, and it doesn't offend me in the slightest. I do think it's a monumentally stupid stupid stupid thing to do under the circumstances, and stupidity makes me cross sometimes. As for what the verses mean, that doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. That the reference is there at all is all that matters.

I wouldn't, however, "make sure to use this scope from now on" unless I had an actual reason to do so: is it significantly better than any other? Using it purely to make a point about how un-offended I am would be foolish. And if it was the best out there, I'd still want the company to be made to produce it without any unnecessary nonsense*.

The only other thing I can say is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZs61VCJvTg

Scary. I always thought the phrase "praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" was satire/sarcasm.

---
* That is to say, it's nonsense to put any sort of religious or literary reference on a weapon; not that the verse itself is necessarily nonsense. Personally, I'm with Mushet, in that it's up to each soldier whether they want to decorate their kit according to their taste.

[Botago]

Bible citations on rifles?

It's stupid.

[Grant Park - Harrow]

Has anyone suggested MATTHEW 5:5 ?

That should be printed on all weapons.

Or if you prefer the OT

Isaiah 2:4

[Solarlandus]

何だHELL?!

NZ army to remove Bible citations from armaments
By RAY LILLEY, Associated Press Writer

Wednesday, January 20, 2010

(01-20) 22:54 PST WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) --

New Zealand said Thursday that Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed, saying they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions.

The inscriptions on products from defense contractor Trijicon of Wixom, Michigan, came to light this week in the U.S. where Army officials said Tuesday they would investigate whether the gun sights — also used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — violate U.S. procurement laws.

Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said that Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and that the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.

"The inscriptions ... put us in a difficult situation. We were unaware of it and we're unhappy that the manufacturer didn't give us any indication that these were on there," Dunne said. "We deem them to be inappropriate."

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by New Zealand troops, which allow them to pinpoint tragets day or night, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.

Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Dunne said that New Zealand's defense force has about 260 of the company's gun sights, which were first bought in 2004, and will continue to use them once the inscriptions are removed because they are the best of their kind.

New Zealand Prime Minister John Key said the government was not aware of the inscriptions when the defense force bought the equipment.

"Now we are in discussions with the company in the United States who will ensure the inscriptions are removed, and we wouldn't want them on future sights," he told reporters.

Earlier, Defense Minister Wayne Mapp said that with New Zealand soldiers in Muslim countries, the Bible references could be misconstrued.

"We all know of the religious tensions around this issue and it's unwise to do anything that could be seen to raise tensions in an unnecessary way," he said.

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company had never received complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

Trijicon said biblical references were first put on the sites nearly 30 years ago by the company founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, continued the practice.

The references have stoked concerns by critics in the U.S. about whether they break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But U.S. military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and that they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 305S37.DTL

You know, I can accept In-N-Out putting then on their cups, wrappers, and trays. I don't mind seeing them on t-shirts, stickers, or the like... but on something made to kill people? REALLY?

They should have put John 11:35.

Ignoring the whole government/religion debate, what do you think about stamping Bible verses on weapons?

A gunmaker has the right to put on his guns anything he likes. It's a free country after all. If the customer doesn't like it he doesn't have to buy it. Or he can go ahead and remove it upon purchase if he's truly afraid that it will alter his religious convictions merely by its presence. ^o^

Mind you, perhaps our zealous New Zealanders have missed a bet. Rumor has it that many of these guns have devices known as a *cross* sight. Doubtless to show their anti-religious fervor the New Zealand government will now need to require their troops to go into combat without permitting cross sights upon their guns. I'm sure that'll do a lot for their troops morale.

[Techno-Soviet]

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

*facedesk*

*handchair*

See, I can do it too.

So can I

*Foottable*

*Earlamp*

*headass*

*Elbowdoor*

*Fistwall*

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by New Zealand troops, which allow them to pinpoint tragets day or night, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.

Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

I think the only people who could construe this to be offensive are the ignorant, easily angered, or fearful. If you should read the verses they use one would see that they are using ones that directly refer to the purpose of a scope. Especially one that allows pin point targeting in day or night. Its intent is not for a holy war but to say,"Hey look at this unique and cool thing we do."

I think that if it was referring to verses that had nothing to do with what a scope does it could be seen as religious extremism(and even then only by people who are easily offended) Its not like the bible hasn't been used for war either. I take this as a good sign as well. I mean if the creator of the scope cares so much about it as to inscribe on it at extra cost a reference to a specific verse than you should take pride in using it. Seriously, I would much rather use a scope that is not just generically generated. This company cares about its scopes. I'm Jewish, on a scale of offensive this barely scratches a .0000000000000001. I would in fact make sure to use this scope from now on. Its not like the inscription changes the dynamics of the scope.

I am verily inclined to agree with this sentiment.

[Tirovia]

A gunmaker has the right to put on his guns anything he likes. It's a free country after all. If the customer doesn't like it he doesn't have to buy it. Or he can go ahead and remove it upon purchase if he's truly afraid that it will alter his religious convictions merely by its presence. ^o^

Meanwhile, back at the point...

[Straglstrooflsluthel]

A gunmaker has the right to put on his guns anything he likes. It's a free country after all. If the customer doesn't like it he doesn't have to buy it. Or he can go ahead and remove it upon purchase if he's truly afraid that it will alter his religious convictions merely by its presence. ^o^

Mind you, perhaps our zealous New Zealanders have missed a bet. Rumor has it that many of these guns have devices known as a *cross* sight. Doubtless to show their anti-religious fervor the New Zealand government will now need to require their troops to go into combat without permitting cross sights upon their guns. I'm sure that'll do a lot for their troops morale.

The trouble is we New Zealanders are mostly athiest (myself, and all our leading politicians included) or very mildly religious, so we frown this kind of petty zealotry. Plus, it's not really a 'free country', or else I'd be able to go walk down the street naked.

[Grant Park]

*buttbed*

Matthew 1 : 1-10

[Meoton]

Matthew 20:10 "Let he who disagrees with me, sucketh my...."

I'm Matthew by the way.
And I think everything should have my verses printed upon them.

[Wallonochia]

Personally, I'm with Mushet, in that it's up to each soldier whether they want to decorate their kit according to their taste.

The Army does generally frown upon decoration these days, although lots of people wear non-regulation patches because it's all velcro and can be removed when returning to civilization.

Rumor has it that many of these guns have devices known as a *cross* sight. Doubtless to show their anti-religious fervor the New Zealand government will now need to require their troops to go into combat without permitting cross sights upon their guns. I'm sure that'll do a lot for their troops morale.

I know you're joking, but the ACOG reticle isn't a cross. Damn, I love ACOGs.

[Krazniastan]

I know you're joking, but the ACOG reticle isn't a cross. Damn, I love ACOGs.

A number of ACOG's have a cross shaped reticle. But most people are familiar with the Chevron, Triangle, 'Doughnut of Death', and Horseshoe ones.

[Wallonochia]

A number of ACOG's have a cross shaped reticle. But most people are familiar with the Chevron, Triangle, 'Doughnut of Death', and Horseshoe ones.

I'm only familiar with the ones the Army buys, which are of the chevron variety.

[SD_Film Artists]

Considering that the Israelis call their Main Battle Tank "Chariot of God", are the biblical gun sights all that different?

Although, being compared to the IDF doesn't exactly help their chances of not "stoking religious tensions"

[Wallonochia]

Considering that the Israelis call their Main Battle Tank "Chariot of God", are the biblical gun sights all that different

Israel doesn't pretend to be a secular state.

[Turanbirligi]

i think thats its not a good idea. using religion in military and politics harms the secularism

[Mean Feat]

Considering that the Israelis call their Main Battle Tank "Chariot of God", are the biblical gun sights all that different?

Although, being compared to the IDF doesn't exactly help their chances of not "stoking religious tensions"

Great shot!
Your marksmanship is commendable.

You are awarded the Purple Toe, honorably discharged, and offered all good wishes in your new vocation of Armed Clown.

[DogDoo 7]

Considering that the Israelis call their Main Battle Tank "Chariot of God", are the biblical gun sights all that different

Israel doesn't pretend to be a secular state.

They sort of do. Officially, they have freedom of (and from) religion. However, rabbis control marriage and you can't get a bus on shabbat. There's also the whole "Arabs are second-class citizens" thing but that's mostly cuz of the whole "Jewish State" thing. Anyway, in conclusion, Israel definitely claims it is a secular state. Whether it is or isn't is subject to debate.

[The_pantless_hero]

Considering that the Israelis call their Main Battle Tank "Chariot of God", are the biblical gun sights all that different

Israel doesn't pretend to be a secular state.

They sort of do.

They are doing a worse job of it than the US.