Bible citations on military gun sights

[NERVUN]

Ok gang, since I'm not actually ruling against anyone, I'm gonna put the Mod hat on and kindly remind folks that this is talking about Bible verses on gun sights and not if Islam and Christianity worship the same god.

Spin it off into a new thread if you are so interested.

[Blouman Empire]

Islam recognises Jesus Christ as an important Prophet - it simply does not recognise him as the Son of God, and believes that Muhammad was more important.

They believe in the same God. Hence why Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions.

FYI the reason why they call all three Abrahamic religions is not because they believe in the same God but because thy all believe that Abraham is the father of man.

That's where the Abraham bit comes from.

But both Christianity and Islam started out as an heretical sect of the earlier religion: Christianity as a sect of Jews; Muslims as a sect of Christians.

Muslims as a sect of Christians?

[Maurepas]

Ok gang, since I'm not actually ruling against anyone, I'm gonna put the Mod hat on and kindly remind folks that this is talking about Bible verses on gun sights and not if Islam and Christianity worship the same god.

Spin it off into a new thread if you are so interested.

But, Both threads are of the Bible, ergo, both are of the same thread,

[Gun Manufacturers]

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

*facedesk*

*handchair*

See, I can do it too.

So can I

*Foottable*

*Earlamp*

[Maurepas]

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

*facedesk*

*handchair*

See, I can do it too.

So can I

*Foottable*

*Earlamp*

*headass*

[Mean Feat]

According to Errinundera's source, the US military has 300,000 of the sights, and the Australian military has 1,000. It's a considerably bigger investment of effort for the US to retrofit their equipment, but they should. Considering the vaster greater US defense budget, the effort is about proportional, so if NZ and Australia and Germany are going to modify their existing sights it really won't fly for the US Marines or Army to refuse to modify the sights on the basis of cost.

This should never have happened in the first place. The damage is done, though.

Perhaps the best way to spin it, is that the passages referenced were NOT passages about killing for God, or about killing at all. They're all about light. The Bible is being used as Literature. It would have been a LOT worse if the passages had been the bloodthirsty, smiting sort of which there are plenty to choose from.

EDIT: What's with all the spamming here ?

[Blouman Empire]

*headass*

Why are we summing up many posters on NSG now?

[Maurepas]

*headass*

Why are we summing up many posters on NSG now?

Callin the Kettle Black,

[Straughn]

It's just not NZ that has concerns.
How would you feel if the gunsight was referencing the Koran?

Surah 12:23 isn't too bad. Might work.
Perhaps the golden tablet would provide ...:
2 Nephi 13:17
or
Alma 47:23

There's also

1 Kings 1:1-4
and
1 Chronicles 19:4
and
Song of Solomon 4:16
and
Song of Solomon 5:4

or the Baghavad-Gita
6.13-14

For starters (and finishers)

[The Parkus Empire]

If these quotations make the fighting a religious war, then the UK government's ties with the Church of England make it a theocracy.

[Gun Manufacturers]

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

*facedesk*

*handchair*

See, I can do it too.

So can I

*Foottable*

*Earlamp*

*headass*

*Elbowdoor*

[Mean Feat]

If these quotations make the fighting a religious war, then the UK ggovernment's ties with the Church of England make it a theocracy.

It is possible to criticize the Establishment of a church in the UK without making the ridiculous assertion that the UK is a theocracy.

Likewise, it is possible to criticize biblical citations on military equipment without claiming that occupation of majority-muslim countries is a holy war.

You're pretty much in the "not worth making a fuss about" camp on the thread subject, aren't you? How do you feel about Trijicon agreeing to make the same sights without the citations in?

[Krazniastan]

I would imagine that most Christians would feel a little uneasy when their Scriptures - which notably promote "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the Ten Commandments - are being etched out on firearms.

Not to mention the fact that using guns with Bible citations on them would be a propaganda dream for al-Qaeda.

1.) Its 'thou shalt not murder'. The bible is pretty clear that defending yourself is morally just.

2.) its been in use for 30 years, if they hadn't noticed it by now, they never would have. But some muckraking piece of scum journalist decided to raise a stink over something that is so minor in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't fucking matter. Now troops WILL be going without a valuable, mission essential piece of kit for a short while in a COMBAT ZONE while they are being 'PCed' just so some PC Nazi can wank off knowing they've made the world a little less interesting. . .

Dammit.

This PC bullshit pisses me off to no end. They're discontinuing 30 years of tradition, and awesomeness because of a few butthurt, PC weenies. . .

I was not aware the governments of NZ and AU consitute "a few butthurt, PC weenies", excepting to those who seem to be bound and determined to gain the nickname Frank.

I was refrencing the Journalist who wrote the article, and the moron who decided to make it into a big deal in the first place. Seriously, its a nearly indecipherable code in a hard to see, hard to reach area of the scope. Unless you stare at it from 3 inches away, you'll never see it. And if you do, most will dismiss it as part of the model number. Its like an Easter Egg on a DVD, or in a game. As stated earlier, it has been on every piece of kit for 30 years, the company has never mentioned it, or used it as a promotional tool, or tried to call attention to it. Ever. To those who knew about it, it was a neat little secret.

And removing it now isn't going to change the feelings the Muslims have towards us. Damage is done.

[NERVUN]

I would imagine that most Christians would feel a little uneasy when their Scriptures - which notably promote "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the Ten Commandments - are being etched out on firearms.

Not to mention the fact that using guns with Bible citations on them would be a propaganda dream for al-Qaeda.

1.) Its 'thou shalt not murder'. The bible is pretty clear that defending yourself is morally just.

2.) its been in use for 30 years, if they hadn't noticed it by now, they never would have. But some muckraking piece of scum journalist decided to raise a stink over something that is so minor in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't fucking matter. Now troops WILL be going without a valuable, mission essential piece of kit for a short while in a COMBAT ZONE just some PC Nazi can wank off knowing they've made the world a little less interesting. . .

[Straughn]

I would imagine that most Christians would feel a little uneasy when their Scriptures - which notably promote "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the Ten Commandments - are being etched out on firearms.

Not to mention the fact that using guns with Bible citations on them would be a propaganda dream for al-Qaeda.

1.) Its 'thou shalt not murder'. The bible is pretty clear that defending yourself is morally just.

2.) its been in use for 30 years, if they hadn't noticed it by now, they never would have. But some muckraking piece of scum journalist decided to raise a stink over something that is so minor in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't fucking matter.. . .

How long was that again?
Oh, and what do you honestly and truly know about the sensitivity of this particular endeavour?

[Errinundera]

1.) Its 'thou shalt not murder'. The bible is pretty clear that defending yourself is morally just.

Precisely what are US, NZ, Australian and British troops "defending" in Afganistan? It seems to me we are waging an agressive war.

2.) its been in use for 30 years, if they hadn't noticed it by now, they never would have. But some muckraking piece of scum journalist decided to raise a stink over something that is so minor in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't fucking matter. Now troops WILL be going without a valuable, mission essential piece of kit for a short while in a COMBAT ZONE just some PC Nazi can wank off knowing they've made the world a little less interesting. . .

The information is now out. It has to be dealt with.

[Arumdaum]

If I was a soldier I would get pissed off.

Maybe they should have put this verse:

They should have put in Matthew 26:52.

[Straughn]

If I was a soldier I would get pissed off.

Maybe they should have put this verse:

They should have put in Matthew 26:52.

Not a bad choice.

[Krazniastan]

Anyway,
Non-denominational spirtual being that may or may not exist, forbid someone makes a religious reference while we're fighting a bunch of religous zealots who are following the path set before them by their own leaders who have twisted and corrupted a peaceful religion like a cancer. They hate us, and just because we are removing this 'offending' language, isn't going to change that. They're still going to hate us as much, if not more, tomorrow. Blame whoever you'd like, but at this point, the only way out of this mess is by stepping over a whole lot more bodies. The only variable left is who's.

In the end, I really don't care one way or another if it is on there or not. What pisses me off is that instead of going about this in a quiet manner, and politely asking the company to stop this practice, someone decided it was best for their agenda to make it into some sort of giant scandal, one that could be used as a propaganda tool against our troops. And while we try and appease our enemy and try not to offend them by attempting to fix it, troops are going to go without while in harms way. (I know what an advantage this optic provides to those who carry it, and over there they need every advantage they can get.) If just one person gets killed or wounded because they missed a shot they could have hit with an ACOG, but didn't have it because it was being 'PC'ed'. . .

[The Parkus Empire]

It is possible to criticize the Establishment of a church in the UK without making the ridiculous assertion that the UK is a theocracy.

Likewise, it is possible to criticize biblical citations on military equipment without claiming that occupation of majority-muslim countries is a holy war.

You're pretty much in the "not worth making a fuss about" camp on the thread subject, aren't you? How do you feel about Trijicon agreeing to make the same sights without the citations in?

I support that, but I think discarding all of our previous weapons (virtually impossible to modify them) would be retarded, and I'm no Christian. When I'm being shot at I really can't take the time to give a fuck about what itty-bitty little passage reference is on my weapon.

[NERVUN]

Oh, I know you're thinking about it. If you are gonna do it, do it. Don't pussy-foot around it, and never, ever hesitate. Either take the shot, or get off the line.

Anyway,
Non-denominational spirtual being that may or may not exist, forbid someone makes a religious reference while we're fighting a bunch of religous zealots who are following the path set before them by their own leaders who have twisted and corrupted a peaceful religion like a cancer. They hate us, and just because we are removing this 'offending' language, isn't going to change that. They're still going to hate us as much, if not more, tomorrow. Blame whoever you'd like, but at this point, the only way out of this mess is by stepping over a whole lot more bodies. The only variable left is who's.

In the end, I really don't care one way or another if it is on there or not. What pisses me off is that instead of going about this in a quiet manner, and politely asking the company to stop this practice, someone decided it was best for their agenda to make it into some sort of giant scandal, one that could be used as a propaganda tool against our troops. And while we try and appease our enemy and try not to offend them by attempting to fix it, troops are going to go without while in harms way. (I know what an advantage this optic provides to those who carry it, and over there they need every advantage they can get.) If just one person gets killed or wounded because they missed a shot they could have hit with an ACOG, but didn't have it because it was being 'PC'ed'. . .

There was nothing to "take" and there still isn't. You're so far off the deep end you ain't getting bubbles to the surface.

[Krazniastan]

Precisely what are US, NZ, Australian and British troops "defending" in Afganistan? It seems to me we are waging an agressive war.

If a group of criminals are operating out of a certain location, raping, murdering, and generally disturbing the peace, what would you do?

Wait till they act, and maybe catch one or 2? Or kick in their front door and snag all of them at once?

The reason we are there, is because that . . . . region is where the people who responsible for several million tons of rubble that made up the mass grave of 2,976 of my countrymen were hiding. If that isn't reason enough, well. . .

The information is now out. It has to be dealt with.

It could have, and should have, been dealt with quietly, and politely by asking the company to stop the practice. Instead, someone decided to blow it up into a giant scandal which our enemies will use against us.

That is what pisses me off.

[Krazniastan]

There was nothing to "take" and there still isn't. You're so far off the deep end you ain't getting bubbles to the surface.

/shrug.

As for the lack of bubbles, I'm using a Mark 0 Mod 1 rebreather device.

[The Parkus Empire]

If I was a soldier I would get pissed off..

I doubt it. After going through boot camp (where some drill sergeants put privates who don't go to church on details) this seems like very petty shit. If you're ever in a combat zone, working your ass-off all day long in the heat, sleeping a three hours a night and smoking truckloads of cigarettes (obviously not on night patrols), you'll find this insignificant beyond comprehension. Every day I report for work I am forced to stand in formation and hear a chaplain read from the Bible, and I'm telling you, no one complains. Muslims soldiers don't complain, atheist soldiers don't complain, because nobody enlisted for "fair" treatment.

[Errinundera]

Precisely what are US, NZ, Australian and British troops "defending" in Afganistan? It seems to me we are waging an agressive war.

If a group of criminals are operating out of a certain location, raping, murdering, and generally disturbing the peace, what would you do?

Wait till they act, and maybe catch one or 2? Or kick in their front door and snag all of them at once?

The reason we are there, is because that . . . . region is where the people who responsible for several million tons of rubble that made up the mass grave of 2,976 of my countrymen were hiding. If that isn't reason enough, well. . .

The attacks on the World Trade Centre were appalling. The people who perpetrated it were / are mass murderers. They should be brought to account.

That does not justify invading two countries and killing many times the number of victims of 11 September 2001.

The information is now out. It has to be dealt with.

It could have, and should have, been dealt with quietly, and politely by asking the company to stop the practice. Instead, someone decided to blow it up into a giant scandal which our enemies will use against us.

That is what pisses me off.

You are completely correct. It should have been dealt with quietly.

Unfortunately, it's now too late for that.