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Bible citations on military gun sights

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Errinundera
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Founded: Antiquity
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Postby Errinundera » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:33 pm

It's just not NZ that has concerns.

The Australian wrote:Row over 'biblical' weapons in Afghanistan
Brendan Nicholson From: The Australian January 22, 2010 12:00AM

AUSTRALIAN special forces soldiers are using gunsights with biblical references etched on to them as they fight the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.

The ADF has several hundred of the sights, which are prized by elite troops for their accuracy over long range.

Their use by US, British and New Zealand troops has raised alarm among military leaders that it could reinforce views among extremists that the West is waging a crusade against Islam.

The Australian Defence Force is investigating how to remove biblical references etched on to gunsights, without damaging the weapons.

The ADF and military authorities in the US, Britain and elsewhere thought the letters and numbers on the sights were simply stock or model numbers until a US soldier in Afghanistan complained to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation that the initials referred to passage from the Bible. One example was JN8:12 which turned out to be a reference to chapter eight, verse 12 in the Book of John: "When Jesus spoke again to the people he said 'I am the light of the world.

" 'Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life'."

While coalition soldiers were unaware of the significance of the initials, military officials quickly became alarmed that religious extremists could take some propaganda advantage from them being proof the West was waging a crusader war against Islam.

The ADF confirmed yesterday it had been unaware of the meaning of the inscription when the sights were issued to troops.

"The Department of Defence was unaware of the significance of the manufacturer's serial number," the spokesman said. "The sights were procured because they provide mature technology which is highly reliable, in wide use by our allies and best meet Defence requirements. Soldiers are confident in the utility of the sight and the positive and proven effect which it is having on operations."

The spokesman said Defence was conscious of the sensitivities over this issue and was assessing how to address them.

Another inscription was 2COR4:6, which is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament. The passage reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

US military rules prohibit religious proselytising in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn to prevent criticism that the US was on a religious crusade in its war against al-Qa'ida and Iraqi insurgents.

The sights are used by US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers.

The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $US660 million ($725m) multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the US Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the American Army.

Trijicon issued a statement saying: "As part of our faith and our belief in service to our country, Trijicon has put scripture references on our products for more than two decades.

"As long as we have men and women in danger, we will continue to do everything we can to provide them with both state-of-the-art technology and the never-ending support and prayers of a grateful nation."


Link

To those who think that the quotation is fine under freedom of religion I have this question: How would you feel if the gunsight was referencing the Koran?
The world is not cyclical, not eternal or immutable, but endlessly transforms itself, and never goes back, and we can assist in that transformation.

Live on, survive, for the earth gives forth wonders. It may swallow your heart, but the wonders keep on coming. You stand before them bareheaded, shriven. What is expected of you is attention.


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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:35 pm

Errinundera wrote:It's just not NZ that has concerns.

The Australian wrote:Row over 'biblical' weapons in Afghanistan
Brendan Nicholson From: The Australian January 22, 2010 12:00AM

AUSTRALIAN special forces soldiers are using gunsights with biblical references etched on to them as they fight the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.

The ADF has several hundred of the sights, which are prized by elite troops for their accuracy over long range.

Their use by US, British and New Zealand troops has raised alarm among military leaders that it could reinforce views among extremists that the West is waging a crusade against Islam.

The Australian Defence Force is investigating how to remove biblical references etched on to gunsights, without damaging the weapons.

The ADF and military authorities in the US, Britain and elsewhere thought the letters and numbers on the sights were simply stock or model numbers until a US soldier in Afghanistan complained to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation that the initials referred to passage from the Bible. One example was JN8:12 which turned out to be a reference to chapter eight, verse 12 in the Book of John: "When Jesus spoke again to the people he said 'I am the light of the world.

" 'Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life'."

While coalition soldiers were unaware of the significance of the initials, military officials quickly became alarmed that religious extremists could take some propaganda advantage from them being proof the West was waging a crusader war against Islam.

The ADF confirmed yesterday it had been unaware of the meaning of the inscription when the sights were issued to troops.

"The Department of Defence was unaware of the significance of the manufacturer's serial number," the spokesman said. "The sights were procured because they provide mature technology which is highly reliable, in wide use by our allies and best meet Defence requirements. Soldiers are confident in the utility of the sight and the positive and proven effect which it is having on operations."

The spokesman said Defence was conscious of the sensitivities over this issue and was assessing how to address them.

Another inscription was 2COR4:6, which is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament. The passage reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

US military rules prohibit religious proselytising in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn to prevent criticism that the US was on a religious crusade in its war against al-Qa'ida and Iraqi insurgents.

The sights are used by US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers.

The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $US660 million ($725m) multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the US Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the American Army.

Trijicon issued a statement saying: "As part of our faith and our belief in service to our country, Trijicon has put scripture references on our products for more than two decades.

"As long as we have men and women in danger, we will continue to do everything we can to provide them with both state-of-the-art technology and the never-ending support and prayers of a grateful nation."


Link

To those who think that the quotation is fine under freedom of religion I have this question: How would you feel if the gunsight was referencing the Koran?


Oh the very same people who are endorsing Biblical Citation on guns right now would be bitching and screaming about Islamo-Nazi gun manufacturers trying to indoctrinate soldiers into being traitorous Al'Qaeda operatives. Another fine case of the Islamic Litmus Test.
Last edited by Gauthier on Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Errinundera
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Postby Errinundera » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:38 pm

The latest report on the ABC (the Australian one) indicates that concern is going up the ladder.

Australian Broadcastiong Corporation wrote:ADF scrambles in row over biblical gunsights
Posted 1 hour 54 minutes ago
Updated 39 minutes ago


A Trijicon gunsight mounted on an M240 machine gun in US service displays a biblical reference to Psalms 27:1. (Marine Corps Times: Rob Curtis)

Defence Minister John Faulkner has ordered the Defence Department to remove references to biblical passages marked on gunsights being used by Australian troops in Afghanistan.

References to New Testament verses were etched onto the gunsights by the American manufacturer, Trijicon, and the department says it was unaware of their meaning at the time of purchase.

The firm says it has been inscribing references to Bible verses as part of the serial numbers on its products for more than 20 years, during which time they have been used by Australian troops as well as the US and British militaries.

The Australian Defence Force has just over 1,000 of the sights and Senator Faulkner says he was shown some of them during a visit to Victoria Barracks yesterday.

"I understand the concerns about the issue," he said. "I have asked Defence to examine the options available to deal with this matter without compromising the safety of our troops and critically important capabilities."

Overnight Trijicon said it would supply the US military with 100 kits "to enable the removal of the references that are already on products that are currently deployed" by US forces.

Critics have charged that the company is putting troops in danger in Muslim-majority nations where the Western military presence is already bitterly resented.

An ADF spokeswoman said the Department of Defence was unaware of the significance of the serial numbers when it purchased the sights.

"The sights were procured because they provide mature technology which is highly reliable, in wide use by our allies, and best meets Defence requirements," she told the ABC.

"The Department of Defence is very conscious of the sensitivities associated with this issue and is assessing how to address these as soon as practicable."

Among the coded inscriptions on Trijicon gunsights are JN8:12, an apparent reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

Another made reference to Psalms 27:1: "The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?".

The company currently has a multi-year, $US660 million ($731 million) contract with the US Marines and other contracts with the US Army.

Just under 300,000 of the gun sights are currently fielded by American forces - 220,000 by the Marines and between 70,000 and 75,000 by the army, a Pentagon official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Besides providing kits, the company said it would remove the biblical references on all US military products that have not yet been shipped, and stop inscribing them on gun sights in the future.

Trijicon said it had taken the step "in response to concerns raised by the [US] Department of Defence" and to "ensure the war-time production needs of the troops are met as quickly as possible."

It also offered other international military forces using its products - which include the British military and the New Zealand defence forces - the option to remove the references.

The Pentagon said earlier it was "disturbed" after reports emerged this week about the inscriptions. The Marine Corps and the Army have launched a review.

The practice appeared to be a direct violation of a US Central Command general order issued after the 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq that strictly prohibits "proselytising of any religion, faith or practice."

US Army spokesman Gary Tallman earlier said that "we were unaware of these coded biblical references until several days ago," adding that the service branch currently has about 100,000 of the scopes in its inventory.

"It is not the policy of the Department of Defence to put religious references of any kind on its equipment," he added.

-ABC/AFP


Link

The article includes this picture:

Image
Last edited by Errinundera on Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The world is not cyclical, not eternal or immutable, but endlessly transforms itself, and never goes back, and we can assist in that transformation.

Live on, survive, for the earth gives forth wonders. It may swallow your heart, but the wonders keep on coming. You stand before them bareheaded, shriven. What is expected of you is attention.


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Neu Mitanni
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Postby Neu Mitanni » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:41 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Neu Mitanni wrote:
But there might, just possibly, be some merit in the argument that the guns may be counter-productive, seeing as we have not yet publicly admitted that this is in fact a holy war against Islamo-Nazism. If we ever do admit it, then it won't matter what's on our guns, only what comes out of them.

If you want a Holy War, probably better to ask the Pope, than the US Government, as I think he's the Authority on the subject...


To His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI

Your Holiness:

Please declare the Final Crusade.

Sincerely,
Neu Mitanni
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The Fanboyists
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Postby The Fanboyists » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:42 pm

I don't get what the big deal is here, people.

I mean really, they just wanted to put consecrated weapons on the frontline.

It's puttin' the fear of God in the enemy. From a distance, as it were.

A sniper rifle, after all, is a lot like a means of 'smitin' the unrightous,' isn't it?
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:43 pm

Krazniastan wrote:Dammit.

This PC bullshit pisses me off to no end. They're discontinuing 30 years of tradition, and awesomeness because of a few butthurt, PC weenies. . .

I was not aware the governments of NZ and AU consitute "a few butthurt, PC weenies", excepting to those who seem to be bound and determined to gain the nickname Frank.
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Non Aligned States
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Postby Non Aligned States » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:56 pm

Neu Mitanni wrote:To His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI

Your Holiness:

Please declare the Final Crusade.

Sincerely,
Neu Mitanni


To Neu Mitanni

No

Sincerely,
Pope Benedict XVI

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Straughn
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Postby Straughn » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:31 pm

Well, good to see a little change from the people up.

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Tagmatium
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Postby Tagmatium » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:38 pm

Farnhamia wrote:NM doesn't really care, Buffy. Anyway, crushing Islam became coulds-woulda-shoulda in August of 636. After the Yarmouk, the Romans weren't in a position to crush anyone.

If Mantzikert hadn't been handled so badly, then they could well have done it.

After all, the Seljuks didn't even want to invade the Byzantine Empire, they wanted the Fatamids.
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Neu Mitanni
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Postby Neu Mitanni » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:50 pm

Tagmatium wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:NM doesn't really care, Buffy. Anyway, crushing Islam became coulds-woulda-shoulda in August of 636. After the Yarmouk, the Romans weren't in a position to crush anyone.

If Mantzikert hadn't been handled so badly, then they could well have done it.

After all, the Seljuks didn't even want to invade the Byzantine Empire, they wanted the Fatamids.


Manzikert was one of the great disasters of history, but by that time the Byzantine Empire was suffering from advanced hardening of the arteries, not to mention a depleted treasury. And if Romanus IV had been a better general things still might have turned out right. However, I do think the Seljuks were going to move on Anatolia sooner or later.
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Neu Mitanni
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Postby Neu Mitanni » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:53 pm

Non Aligned States wrote:
Neu Mitanni wrote:To His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI

Your Holiness:

Please declare the Final Crusade.

Sincerely,
Neu Mitanni


To Neu Mitanni

No

Sincerely,
Pope Benedict XVI



Wow! A reply.

Hey NSG! NAS is actually being played by the Pope! Who knew the Vatican was down with on-line political games? :lol2:
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Tagmatium
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Postby Tagmatium » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:56 pm

Neu Mitanni wrote:Manzikert was one of the great disasters of history, but by that time the Byzantine Empire was suffering from advanced hardening of the arteries, not to mention a depleted treasury. And if Romanus IV had been a better general things still might have turned out right. However, I do think the Seljuks were going to move on Anatolia sooner or later.

If he'd not placed Andronicus Ducas as his rearguard, things would have gone a lot differently.

Although, admittedly, he may will still have had to contend with the antipathy of the nobles in Constantinople.

Alp Arslan had no wish to move into Asia Minor. Indeed, he and Romanos IV signed a treaty saying as much. The spectacular collapse after the battle just invited them in.

The rot had, admittedly, set in way before then. Arguably, it was Basil II's refusal to have an heir was where it started.
Last edited by Tagmatium on Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Blouman Empire » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:00 pm

North Suran wrote:Islam recognises Jesus Christ as an important Prophet - it simply does not recognise him as the Son of God, and believes that Muhammad was more important.

They believe in the same God. Hence why Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions.


FYI the reason why they call all three Abrahamic religions is not because they believe in the same God but because thy all believe that Abraham is the father of man.

That's where the Abraham bit comes from.
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:03 pm

Blouman Empire wrote:
North Suran wrote:Islam recognises Jesus Christ as an important Prophet - it simply does not recognise him as the Son of God, and believes that Muhammad was more important.

They believe in the same God. Hence why Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions.


FYI the reason why they call all three Abrahamic religions is not because they believe in the same God but because thy all believe that Abraham is the father of man.

That's where the Abraham bit comes from.

They all do believe in the God of the Old Testament though, they simply disagree as to how many books, and when and if the Final Prophet came...

Then again, that can be said of different sects of all three as well...

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Errinundera
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Postby Errinundera » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:04 pm

Blouman Empire wrote:
North Suran wrote:Islam recognises Jesus Christ as an important Prophet - it simply does not recognise him as the Son of God, and believes that Muhammad was more important.

They believe in the same God. Hence why Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions.


FYI the reason why they call all three Abrahamic religions is not because they believe in the same God but because thy all believe that Abraham is the father of man.

That's where the Abraham bit comes from.


But both Christianity and Islam started out as an heretical sect of the earlier religion: Christianity as a sect of Jews; Muslims as a sect of Christians.
The world is not cyclical, not eternal or immutable, but endlessly transforms itself, and never goes back, and we can assist in that transformation.

Live on, survive, for the earth gives forth wonders. It may swallow your heart, but the wonders keep on coming. You stand before them bareheaded, shriven. What is expected of you is attention.


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Neu Mitanni
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Postby Neu Mitanni » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:06 pm

Blouman Empire wrote:
North Suran wrote:Islam recognises Jesus Christ as an important Prophet - it simply does not recognise him as the Son of God, and believes that Muhammad was more important.

They believe in the same God. Hence why Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions.


FYI the reason why they call all three Abrahamic religions is not because they believe in the same God but because thy all believe that Abraham is the father of man.

That's where the Abraham bit comes from.


"Abrahamic religion" is a classification invented by scholars of religion to make their analyses easier. As such, it is entitled to little weight in the real world, outside academia.

Between 21st century apologists for Islam and the words of the Koran itself, I think the choice is clear.
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Tagmatium
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Postby Tagmatium » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm

Errinundera wrote:But both Christianity and Islam started out as an heretical sect of the earlier religion: Christianity as a sect of Jews; Muslims as a sect of Christians.

As far as I was aware, Muslims were always somewhat divorced from Christianity, rather than being a heretical sect.

Not sure of the details in general, but the Byzantines never really refered to them as heretics, but as something of a seperate religion.

At least, neither Anna Comnena or Michael Psellus considered them as such.
Last edited by Tagmatium on Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neu Mitanni
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Postby Neu Mitanni » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:08 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Blouman Empire wrote:
North Suran wrote:Islam recognises Jesus Christ as an important Prophet - it simply does not recognise him as the Son of God, and believes that Muhammad was more important.

They believe in the same God. Hence why Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions.


FYI the reason why they call all three Abrahamic religions is not because they believe in the same God but because thy all believe that Abraham is the father of man.

That's where the Abraham bit comes from.

They all do believe in the God of the Old Testament though, they simply disagree as to how many books, and when and if the Final Prophet came.


A huge and misleading over-simplification, particularly as applied to Islam.

This thread is wandering far afield. Perhaps another thread on comparative religion is in order?
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:09 pm

Neu Mitanni wrote:
Maurepas wrote:
Blouman Empire wrote:
North Suran wrote:Islam recognises Jesus Christ as an important Prophet - it simply does not recognise him as the Son of God, and believes that Muhammad was more important.

They believe in the same God. Hence why Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions.


FYI the reason why they call all three Abrahamic religions is not because they believe in the same God but because thy all believe that Abraham is the father of man.

That's where the Abraham bit comes from.

They all do believe in the God of the Old Testament though, they simply disagree as to how many books, and when and if the Final Prophet came.


A huge and misleading over-simplification, particularly as applied to Islam.

This thread is wandering far afield. Perhaps another thread on comparative religion is in order?


It is an over-simplification, there are more huge differences but, it is true nonetheless...

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Postby Techno-Soviet » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:10 pm

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*facedesk*
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Neu Mitanni
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Postby Neu Mitanni » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:17 pm

Tagmatium wrote:
Errinundera wrote:But both Christianity and Islam started out as an heretical sect of the earlier religion: Christianity as a sect of Jews; Muslims as a sect of Christians.

As far as I was aware, Muslims were always somewhat divorced from Christianity, rather than being a heretical sect.

Not sure of the details in general, but the Byzantines never really refered to them as heretics, but as something of a seperate religion.


Dante, however, appears to have considered them schismatic Christians. Hence, Mo wound up in Bolgia 9 of the Eighth Circle, with the sowers of discord.
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Postby Gun Manufacturers » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:20 pm

Techno-Soviet wrote:
Parthenon wrote:"There are no atheists in foxholes"


*facedesk*


*handchair*

See, I can do it too. :p
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Tagmatium
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Postby Tagmatium » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:23 pm

Neu Mitanni wrote:
Tagmatium wrote:
Errinundera wrote:But both Christianity and Islam started out as an heretical sect of the earlier religion: Christianity as a sect of Jews; Muslims as a sect of Christians.

As far as I was aware, Muslims were always somewhat divorced from Christianity, rather than being a heretical sect.

Not sure of the details in general, but the Byzantines never really refered to them as heretics, but as something of a seperate religion.

Dante, however, appears to have considered them schismatic Christians. Hence, Mo wound up in Bolgia 9 of the Eighth Circle, with the sowers of discord.

Indeed, but then that was two hundred years after either of those two, as well as being an entirely different branch of Christianity.

Frankly, I can't be arsed to thumb through either the Alexiad or the Chronographia, primarily as I'm somewhat drunk, so I'm not going to contest this.

Admittedly, I've only read through Psellus' thing once, whilst I think I've read through Alexiad the most, but as far as I can remember, she tends to refer to them as either Saracens or one or the other of obscure Biblical references to do with their supposed origins, due to which son of someone or other they're apparently related to.

Hagarines or something.
Last edited by Tagmatium on Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blouman Empire
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Postby Blouman Empire » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:34 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Blouman Empire wrote:
North Suran wrote:Islam recognises Jesus Christ as an important Prophet - it simply does not recognise him as the Son of God, and believes that Muhammad was more important.

They believe in the same God. Hence why Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions.


FYI the reason why they call all three Abrahamic religions is not because they believe in the same God but because thy all believe that Abraham is the father of man.

That's where the Abraham bit comes from.

They all do believe in the God of the Old Testament though, they simply disagree as to how many books, and when and if the Final Prophet came...

Then again, that can be said of different sects of all three as well...

Now I wasn't disagreeing with that just the reason why they are called Abrahamic religions. :)
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On the American/United Statesian matter "I'd suggest Americans go to their nation settings and change their nation prefix to something cooler." - The Kangaroo Republic
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Blouman Empire
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Founded: Sep 05, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Blouman Empire » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:36 pm

Gun Manufacturers wrote:
Techno-Soviet wrote:
Parthenon wrote:"There are no atheists in foxholes"


*facedesk*


*handchair*

See, I can do it too. :p


So can I

*Foottable*
You know you've made it on NSG when you have a whole thread created around what you said.
On the American/United Statesian matter "I'd suggest Americans go to their nation settings and change their nation prefix to something cooler." - The Kangaroo Republic
http://nswiki.net/index.php?title=Blouman_Empire

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