Bible citations on military gun sights

[Yootopia]

After all, isn't peace what every soldier desires?

Consider mercenaries and chaps like Mussolini - most of soldiers want peace, but some people are turned into a very specific kind of War Radge by protracted conflict.

Well, I was being a tad sarcastic with that last. And I suppose that if war went away, all those arms manufacturers would go out of business, causing terrible harship for their wives, families, mistresses ...

Fuck 'em. Not like they couldn't produce anything else. They have expertise in making slightly fiddly things out a variety of composite materials and metals. Plenty of stuff that can be used for other than guns, tanks etc.

[Flameswroth]

Ignoring the whole government/religion debate, what do you think about stamping Bible verses on weapons?

I think it's trivial. It doesn't inhibit the proper function of the weapon, and you'd have to be pretty darn close to even see what the verse is. I don't know that it makes a whole lot of sense to go out of one's way to print the phrases on there, and it's certainly not worth it if it affects the cost adversely to do so. But if it doesn't affect the cost too much, it's easy enough to ignore. Heck, if for some reason your sensibilities were so prone to offense that the mere thought of the stamp existing drives you to rage, slather some mud over it, or maybe a tiny strip of electrical tape. But since it's so trivial, removing them wouldn't bug me either. The people who wanted them could pick their own and carve it themselves or somethin'. It's just aesthetic in nature really.

[The Alma Mater]

Heck, if for some reason your sensibilities were so prone to offense that the mere thought of the stamp existing drives you to rage, slather some mud over it, or maybe a tiny strip of electrical tape.

The problem is not so much the sensibilities of the owner, but where the weapons are being used. As you probably know, many muslims claim that the western presence in the middle east is amongst other things a crusade, or at least an attempt to convert people to Christianity. Having your soldiers waving weapons with Bible references around does not add credibility to claims that you are not doing anything of the sort.

[Flameswroth]

Heck, if for some reason your sensibilities were so prone to offense that the mere thought of the stamp existing drives you to rage, slather some mud over it, or maybe a tiny strip of electrical tape.

The problem is not so much the sensibilities of the owner, but where the weapons are being used. As you probably know, many muslims claim that the western presence in the middle east is amongst other things a crusade, or at least an attempt to convert people to Christianity. Having your soldiers waving weapons with Bible references around does not add credibility to claims that you are not doing anything of the sort.

But by design, they're never going to be close enough to see the stamps. And even if they are, and you're that worried they'll go Jihad on your ass because of it, cover it with a bit of electrical tape. Since I doubt we sell those scopes to them, it's highly unlikely they'd even know it's there if you didn't point it out. Seems simple to me, but maybe I'm missing something...

EDIT -- I'm not trying to say, "I want them to keep the scriptures, and let those that are worried cover it up." In fact, I have no problem with the course of action being taken. If they want to remove the scriptures that's fine by me, doesn't hurt anything. But it seems silly to try and say that you're put in harm's way by the scriptures when they are so easily concealed, y'know?

[Wallonochia]

After all, isn't peace what every soldier desires?

Every sane soldier, yes.

[Chezovolvia]

Ever heard of The Soviet Union? AKA the atheist country with an army larger than ours?

It's nationalism.

Absurd.

In the 1980s the Soviets had more troops than any other country in the history of the world. About half of them were atheists.

Source?

It's a pretty well known fact that the Red Army had about 5.5 million men serving during the Cold War. They did it through nationalism and propaganda.

[Chezovolvia]

Ever heard of The Soviet Union? AKA the atheist country with an army larger than ours?

It's nationalism.

Absurd.

In the 1980s the Soviets had more troops than any other country in the history of the world. About half of them were atheists.

Source?

Officially the U.S.S.R was atheist, and thus it's army was considered atheist. Whether or not people actually held to atheist values themselves or just kept their faith to themselves I don't know. Although to be fair communism in the Soviet Union was in itself a form of state religion.

Official estimates say about forty percent of Soviets were atheist...Although about three quarters didn't have any real beliefs.

[Greed and Death]

After all, isn't peace what every soldier desires?

Consider mercenaries and chaps like Mussolini - most of soldiers want peace, but some people are turned into a very specific kind of War Radge by protracted conflict.

Well, I was being a tad sarcastic with that last. And I suppose that if war went away, all those arms manufacturers would go out of business, causing terrible harship for their wives, families, mistresses ...

But the quality of hunting rifles would go through the roof.

[Big Jim P]

Maybe a statement "God forgive me for the life I am about to take" would be appropriate, considering killing is a direct contradiction of one of his commandments?

[Tagmatium]

Maybe a statement "God forgive me for the life I am about to take" would be appropriate, considering killing is a direct contradiction of one of his commandments?

Not when you're killing darkies.

Then it's God's work!

[The Alma Mater]

Heck, if for some reason your sensibilities were so prone to offense that the mere thought of the stamp existing drives you to rage, slather some mud over it, or maybe a tiny strip of electrical tape.

The problem is not so much the sensibilities of the owner, but where the weapons are being used. As you probably know, many muslims claim that the western presence in the middle east is amongst other things a crusade, or at least an attempt to convert people to Christianity. Having your soldiers waving weapons with Bible references around does not add credibility to claims that you are not doing anything of the sort.

But by design, they're never going to be close enough to see the stamps. And even if they are, and you're that worried they'll go Jihad on your ass because of it, cover it with a bit of electrical tape. Since I doubt we sell those scopes to them, it's highly unlikely they'd even know it's there if you didn't point it out. Seems simple to me, but maybe I'm missing something...

Someone has just pointed it out to them, now didn't they ? So now the muslims know that the soldiers, who are in no way a Christian force, no sir, are carrying weapons with refernces to Bible verses. Very easy to use in anti-western propaganda.

[The Parkus Empire]

It wouldn't bother me, because I frankly wouldn't give a shit while my enemy is shooting at me. But I can see it bothering some people: what if it were a Koran quote? What if it were an atheist quote?

[The Parkus Empire]

Not when you're killing darkies.

Then it's God's work!

Please tell me from whence you got this sarcastic nonsense. Soldiers sure as fuck don't think like this.

[Top Dawgg]

One might look to the scriptures for comfort. You are staring down the barrel of your rifle, about to end another man's life, it might be comforting to be reminded of certain scriptures.

[Krazniastan]

Ok, to clarify some things I've seen in this thread:

1.) All lettering on these sights is raised. Some additional markings are printed on, but usually those are added by the end user. The housing is a forged and machined Aluminum blank, coated with a rubberized finish.

2.) The 'code' isn't painted white. Its the same as the rest of the lettering. The white was added to make it easier to see in the pictures, probably by the reporter.

3.) Trijicon has been doing this for pretty much 30 years. Their founder, Glin Bindon, was a devout Christian, and had it put on the sights. When he was killed in 2003 in a plane crash, the company continued the practice as a tribute to him. They have never advertized the presence of these codes, and they have never really mentioned it to anyone. It is pretty much a memorial to him, and nothing more.

4.) All of the bible codes reference light and darkness. This is due to the way these scopes' illuminated reticles work, via Tritium and Fiber optics. Trijicon was one of the leaders in the Illuminated reticle field, and did it without using batteries.

5.) Trijicon makes quite possibly the most indestructible, rugged, and reliable combat optic in the world. The ACOG (Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight) is literally bullet proof, due to the lexan prism it uses as part of the internal optics. (Troops have been saved by its construction, as the prism has stopped the incoming bullet. And whats even more amazing is that most of them still worked afterwards. . . ) Amazing clarity, huge field of view, and you can't hurt the sunafabitch. I've tried. (I own a TA31F. To prove a point, I ran it over with my truck, and the result was a flat tire and a cracked concrete pad. The ACOG didn't even shift its zero when I remounted it.) Its service record, and capabilities are unmatched, and anyone who refuses to use it because of something as insignificant as this is a fucking moron. And anyone who is trying to get Trijicon in trouble over this is either a.) Stupid, b.) Wants our troops to not have this piece of kit, or c.) Assisting a rival to dislodge Trijicon's lock on mil contracts.

6.) To all of you saying 'Oh, they'll use it as a refrence to this being a holy war. etc, etc.' I kinda doubt it. They will now, cause some jackass reported decided to start throwing mud, but if they hadn't raised the fuss, the muslims wouldn't have known, and life would have continued as normal.

7.) Why is only offensive when we stick an almost indecipherable Christian refrence in a small, hard to see location on a piece of kit, but it's considered Cultural, and 'we need to embrace it', when Harry Ha. . er, a terrorist wraps himself in a holy shroud and blows himself up in a crowded market, killing a bunch of innocent people in the hopes of taking a single 'infidel with him? Double standard anyone?

[Milks Empire]

If it were the soldiers themselves adding them, that would be one thing. The manufacturer should not be doing this.

[Wallonochia]

And anyone who is trying to get Trijicon in trouble over this is either a.) Stupid, b.) Wants our troops to not have this piece of kit, or c.) Assisting a rival to dislodge Trijicon's lock on mil contracts.

Or they want Trijicon to change their practices in this instance.

That said, the ACOG is an utterly fantastic piece of equipment and I'd still want to be issued it even if every square inch of it were covered in exhortations to kill non-Christians and I'm not even remotely Christian because it really is that good a piece of equipment. After several years of using M16s and M4s with simple iron sights or even the M68 CCO the ACOG felt like I was cheating. If you can't get a perfect score on the rifle range with an ACOG you're beyond help.

Still, there's no reason the military can't request that they remove the markings and if some soldiers happen to want something like that on there that's what sharpies are for although the armorer may get pissed.

[Flameswroth]

Heck, if for some reason your sensibilities were so prone to offense that the mere thought of the stamp existing drives you to rage, slather some mud over it, or maybe a tiny strip of electrical tape.

The problem is not so much the sensibilities of the owner, but where the weapons are being used. As you probably know, many muslims claim that the western presence in the middle east is amongst other things a crusade, or at least an attempt to convert people to Christianity. Having your soldiers waving weapons with Bible references around does not add credibility to claims that you are not doing anything of the sort.

But by design, they're never going to be close enough to see the stamps. And even if they are, and you're that worried they'll go Jihad on your ass because of it, cover it with a bit of electrical tape. Since I doubt we sell those scopes to them, it's highly unlikely they'd even know it's there if you didn't point it out. Seems simple to me, but maybe I'm missing something...

Someone has just pointed it out to them, now didn't they ? So now the muslims know that the soldiers, who are in no way a Christian force, no sir, are carrying weapons with refernces to Bible verses. Very easy to use in anti-western propaganda.

Well then the damage is done already, and removing the verses really isn't going to help anything. Even with the verses removed, the people who would be concerned about it aren't going to see that they're removed, and are just going to assume they're there. Are soldiers going to go around person to person showing them that the marks no longer exist in an attempt to assuage their discontent?

[Krazniastan]

Or they want Trijicon to change their practices in this instance.

I suspect its someone who wants to cause trouble for our folks in combat zones. its going to create a logistics nioghtmare, and people are going to not have these optics when they need them if they try and 'scrub' it off, and its going to get US Soldiers killed. Which I suspect is another, ulterior motive.

That said, the ACOG is an utterly fantastic piece of equipment and I'd still want to be issued it even if every square inch of it were covered in exhortations to kill non-Christians and I'm not even remotely Christian because it really is that good a piece of equipment. After several years of using M16s and M4s with simple iron sights or even the M68 CCO the ACOG felt like I was cheating. If you can't get a perfect score on the rifle range with an ACOG you're beyond help.

I've drilled targets out to 600 yards with my 31F on my 16 inch Recce. Its almost boring, cause the scope makes it so ridiculously easy.

Still, there's no reason the military can't request that they remove the markings and if some soldiers happen to want something like that on there that's what sharpies are for although the armorer may get pissed.

To remove these, you are going to have to use a grinder, on an area of the scope that really, really isn't going to react well to being ground on. As stated before, the housing is an Aluminum forging, and the letters are raised.

[Krazniastan]

And just to add gasoline to the fire. . .


I can't believe someone hasn't mentioned the Noveske krink brake.

Bunch of those in theater, and they have a marking which was intended to be offensive to muslims. (I've sold a number of these to deploying troops just because of these markings. )



Point is, they're already trying to kill us, who gives a shit if we piss them off more?

Oh, and before you all get your undergarments in a wad, and try and get the manufacturer to remove that marking, save your breath. His response will be a hearty 'Fuck off'.

[The Republic of Lanos]

why can't they use the Bible verse Samuel L. Jackson uses in Pulp Fiction?

[Namabia]

What the......



Bible Citations?!?!?!?

Since when did the Bible say, "Put this Scripture on your gun and kill peoples?"

[Flameswroth]

Point is, they;re already trying to kill us, who gives a shit if we piss them off more?

Perhaps the concern is the 'on-the-fence' Muslims, rather than the radicals. Leaders with an axe to grind can use the imagery of disrespectful crusaders pursuing religious ends to galvanize otherwise ambivalent Muslims into action against them.

[Chumblywumbly]

Point is, they;re already trying to kill us, who gives a shit if we piss them off more?

Because the US-led coalition isn't fighting every single Muslim in the world.

Nor is every single serving soldier a Christian.

[The Alma Mater]

Heck, if for some reason your sensibilities were so prone to offense that the mere thought of the stamp existing drives you to rage, slather some mud over it, or maybe a tiny strip of electrical tape.

The problem is not so much the sensibilities of the owner, but where the weapons are being used. As you probably know, many muslims claim that the western presence in the middle east is amongst other things a crusade, or at least an attempt to convert people to Christianity. Having your soldiers waving weapons with Bible references around does not add credibility to claims that you are not doing anything of the sort.

But by design, they're never going to be close enough to see the stamps. And even if they are, and you're that worried they'll go Jihad on your ass because of it, cover it with a bit of electrical tape. Since I doubt we sell those scopes to them, it's highly unlikely they'd even know it's there if you didn't point it out. Seems simple to me, but maybe I'm missing something...

Someone has just pointed it out to them, now didn't they ? So now the muslims know that the soldiers, who are in no way a Christian force, no sir, are carrying weapons with refernces to Bible verses. Very easy to use in anti-western propaganda.

Well then the damage is done already, and removing the verses really isn't going to help anything. Even with the verses removed, the people who would be concerned about it aren't going to see that they're removed, and are just going to assume they're there. Are soldiers going to go around person to person showing them that the marks no longer exist in an attempt to assuage their discontent?

A valid point. Removing them is indeed too late now.
Putting them on in the first place remains stupid however - which was my claim