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Bible citations on military gun sights

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NERVUN
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Bible citations on military gun sights

Postby NERVUN » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:31 am

何だHELL?!

AP wrote:NZ army to remove Bible citations from armaments
By RAY LILLEY, Associated Press Writer

Wednesday, January 20, 2010

(01-20) 22:54 PST WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) --

New Zealand said Thursday that Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed, saying they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions.

The inscriptions on products from defense contractor Trijicon of Wixom, Michigan, came to light this week in the U.S. where Army officials said Tuesday they would investigate whether the gun sights — also used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — violate U.S. procurement laws.

Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said that Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and that the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.

"The inscriptions ... put us in a difficult situation. We were unaware of it and we're unhappy that the manufacturer didn't give us any indication that these were on there," Dunne said. "We deem them to be inappropriate."

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by New Zealand troops, which allow them to pinpoint tragets day or night, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.

Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Dunne said that New Zealand's defense force has about 260 of the company's gun sights, which were first bought in 2004, and will continue to use them once the inscriptions are removed because they are the best of their kind.

New Zealand Prime Minister John Key said the government was not aware of the inscriptions when the defense force bought the equipment.

"Now we are in discussions with the company in the United States who will ensure the inscriptions are removed, and we wouldn't want them on future sights," he told reporters.

Earlier, Defense Minister Wayne Mapp said that with New Zealand soldiers in Muslim countries, the Bible references could be misconstrued.

"We all know of the religious tensions around this issue and it's unwise to do anything that could be seen to raise tensions in an unnecessary way," he said.

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company had never received complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

Trijicon said biblical references were first put on the sites nearly 30 years ago by the company founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, continued the practice.

The references have stoked concerns by critics in the U.S. about whether they break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But U.S. military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and that they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 305S37.DTL

You know, I can accept In-N-Out putting then on their cups, wrappers, and trays. I don't mind seeing them on t-shirts, stickers, or the like... but on something made to kill people? REALLY?

They should have put John 11:35.

Ignoring the whole government/religion debate, what do you think about stamping Bible verses on weapons?
Last edited by NERVUN on Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Callisdrun
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Postby Callisdrun » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:34 am

I think if I was a soldier I'd be really pissed.
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Grandais
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Postby Grandais » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:36 am

What are the citations doing on weapons in the first place?
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Greengrow
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Postby Greengrow » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:38 am

I don't know depends what one it was.

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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:38 am

Grandais wrote:What are the citations doing on weapons in the first place?

I wish I knew.
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Eternal Life with God
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Postby Eternal Life with God » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:40 am

Bad idea!
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Kyr Shorn
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Postby Kyr Shorn » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:41 am

Brings a whole new meaning to "I come not to spread peace but to bring a sword." ;)

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Klaus Devestatorie
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Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:46 am

John 9:39 would be cooler. Or maybe Luke 21:20. Or maybe even Revelations 16:1, and thats just the stuff in the new testament :twisted:

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Eternal Life with God
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Postby Eternal Life with God » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:50 am

Kyr Shorn wrote:Brings a whole new meaning to "I come not to spread peace but to bring a sword." ;)

The sword was his holy word.
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Postby Letat » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:53 am

Put me down for "I guess it's not the worst thing you could do, but this seriously seems to violate some fundamental code of tact."
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Kyr Shorn
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Postby Kyr Shorn » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:54 am

Eternal Life with God wrote:
Kyr Shorn wrote:Brings a whole new meaning to "I come not to spread peace but to bring a sword." ;)

The sword was his holy word.


And it's so holy the Christian religion had to spread itself through violence and war. :)

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Postby Lord Tothe » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:54 am

Should the military need to liquidate these assets, I am willing to take possession for disposal without charge :D I'll keep one for my rifle, and send the rest to friends.
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Hindopia
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Postby Hindopia » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:58 am

Kyr Shorn wrote:Brings a whole new meaning to "I come not to spread peace but to bring a sword." ;)

Or in this case, a big ol' sniper rifle.
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Postby Khornate Worshippers » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:59 am

Hindopia wrote:
Kyr Shorn wrote:Brings a whole new meaning to "I come not to spread peace but to bring a sword." ;)

Or in this case, a big ol' sniper rifle.



Didn't Jesus say "Do not bring a staff, but a big damn gun"?
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Eternal Life with God
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Postby Eternal Life with God » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:59 am

Kyr Shorn wrote:
Eternal Life with God wrote:
Kyr Shorn wrote:Brings a whole new meaning to "I come not to spread peace but to bring a sword." ;)

The sword was his holy word.


And it's so holy the Christian religion had to spread itself through violence and war. :)

religion=/= christ
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Postby Cennazluga » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:02 am

Fucking zealot manufacturer. Is he trying for WW3?!

Here's what it looks like. The letters are raised and painted white, as opposed to the serial no. which is pressed down.
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Postby Callisdrun » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:04 am

Letat wrote:Put me down for "I guess it's not the worst thing you could do, but this seriously seems to violate some fundamental code of tact."

True, not world-threatening, but still... not a cool move.
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Postby Chezovolvia » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:11 am

These are the kind of people that give the U.S. the name it has today...Fucking zealot.
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Postby Enn » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:14 am

I'd personally be more in favour of Judges 1:19 - as best illustrated on this page and the following two. Mainly because it's so breathtakingly bizarre.
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Postby Mean Feat » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:20 am

NERVUN wrote:
Ignoring the whole government/religion debate, what do you think about stamping Bible verses on weapons?


But ... that is the very first thing to say about this. Separation of church and state. Not on. The gun-sights should be modified in the US military too.

What do I think about it, apart from the obvious which you asked me not to mention ...

I owned an Amiga 500 once. I opened it up just to see where the lithographer had put ROCK LOBSTER in tribute to the band The B-52's. It was there filling up some space where there were no circuit tracks, and I did laugh even though I was expecting it.

So I'd find this funny if it was some pop culture reference which had been put on the sights, a personal touch by the manufacturers to acknowledge that they're just human. Indexing bible passages, though ... no, much too much chance of it being taken seriously, and as the NZ military correctly judged, it's liable to exacerbate religious tensions.
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Postby Rolamec » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:26 am

Two things: First, that's weird.

Second, they just found that out now? Is this new or something?
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Postby Tirovia » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:30 am

Chezovolvia wrote:These are the kind of people that give the U.S. the name it has today...Fucking zealot.


Agreed. For the record, I'd like to point out that although I don't live there I'm actually fairly pro-America. But it has to be said that the USA has a serious image problem in some quarters - primarily those quarters in which it's militarily engaged - and a lot of people see the US as being on a religious crusade. It's hard to dismiss that entirely when you see the religious obsession that Americans can tend to exhibit. Religion is a ridiculously emotive issue in the US: all this 'god and country' stuff, as though God really does live in America and speak with an American accent... Hell, even America's atheists can be militant fanatics.

And then some dimbulb decides to stoke the fires of tension, mistrust and hatred by turning a weapon into a tool of religious proselytisation? Idiotically stupid. Like Chezovolvia says, it's the worst possible thing that could be done PR-wise, when the opposition are able to generate huge political capital by claiming it's all about America trying to enforce the adoption of Christianity.

Before the rednecks start howling at me, I don't care if your soldiers want to take their god to war with them. That's just fine: I'd take mine with me if I had to go fight. Mars, certainly - although at least no-one's ever claimed Mars to be anti-war, so there's no inconsistency to work round there... But having your god there to support you personally is fine. Having religious trinkets and texts with you in battle, that's fine too. But I'd be pretty dubious if I was sent into battle carrying a weapon inscribed with someone else's religious references, and then expected to believe that the conflict was nothing to do with religion.

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Postby Khornate Worshippers » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:34 am

Weren't those the ones used to give the new german nickname?

The ones saying "Gott mit uns" or something like that?
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Postby Alsatian Knights » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:51 am

Lets see how much do I care? *takes out measuring tape and promptly puts it away* um...who cares? The fact that it has a bible verse on it doesn't stop me from doing my job.
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Postby Ramsetia » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:52 am

Yeah, made soldiers believe they were fighting the hun.

The 'god with us' aspect is pretty much expected of most militaries. If there isn't the idea that what you're doing is not only right, but endorsed by whatever big guy you believe in, then you'll find morale is a bit lower.

Personally, I think with all the religiously-motivated violence and tension where these items are being utilised...It's atrociously bad taste
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