Christian Discussion Thread V

[The Third Nova Terra of Scrin]

I assume that by you grasp of English, you live in Canada or UK, if that is the case, is Godless fags have already taken over those places.

u not know race or nation of deh person by he/she of excellency or good talents of the speaking or of wriging in da englush

And I'm saying that's churches that play Christian rock are growing, not stating the causes.

That is, more correct.

[Cannabis Islands]

I assume that by you grasp of English, you live in Canada or UK, if that is the case, is Godless fags have already taken over those places.

u not know race or nation of deh person by he/she of excellency or good talents of the speaking or of wriging in da englush

And I'm saying that's churches that play Christian rock are growing, not stating the causes.

That is, more correct.

My point is that The charismatics and the Pentecostals are going to be the people that are going pushing for the polices you want.

[The Third Nova Terra of Scrin]

My point is that The charismatics and the Pentecostals are going to be the people that are going pushing for the polices you want.

Oh, so, that's what you've been talking about in sqaure one. I don't know why I need to support the Charismatics and the Pentecostals. I believe we've talked with each other that I don't have any big theological or doctrinal disagreements with them.

I also don't know why I should support the pushing of the policies I want. I haven't felt any strong need to push for a more conservative America or West, especially because I don't live in America nor in the West, regardless of my grasp of English.

[Cannabis Islands]

My point is that The charismatics and the Pentecostals are going to be the people that are going pushing for the polices you want.

Oh, so, that's what you've been talking about in sqaure one. I don't know why I need to support the Charismatics and the Pentecostals. I believe we've talked with each other that I don't have any big theological or doctrinal disagreements with them.

I also don't know why I should support the pushing of the policies I want. I haven't felt any strong need to push for a more conservative America or West, especially because I don't live in America nor in the West, regardless of my grasp of English.

Very well then. But it's hard to customize my argument when you don't state your nationality. I'm not encouraging you to do so, but it does make it hard.

[Nordengrund]

My view is that there is nothing wrong with wearing casual clothes as long as it is modest and no obscene or vulgar content.

However, I do recall that in the Bible, women are required to cover their heads in church, but I never see this. I heard it is done in Anabaptist, Plymouth Brethren, and Independent Baptist churches.

Also, I don't see conservative Protestantism as shrinking because of legalism or fundamentalism, but rather it is because I don't think Christians evangelize as much as we should. Churches should be more welcoming and invite people.

[Cannabis Islands]

My view is that there is nothing wrong with wearing casual clothes as long as it is modest and no obscene or vulgar content.

However, I do recall that in the Bible, women are required to cover their heads in church, but I never see this. I heard it is done in Anabaptist, Plymouth Brethren, and Independent Baptist churches.

Also, I don't see conservative Protestantism as shrinking because of legalism or fundamentalism, but rather it is because I don't think Christians evangelize as much as we should. Churches should be more welcoming and invite people.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying that the parts of conservative Protestantism that are growing are Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement.

As for women covering their heads in church, you haven't been to a traditionalist Catholic parish.

[Angleter]

Masses where they play pop music or other watered down stuff are much more uninviting.

I'm skeptical of that with regards to the general populace. Don't get me wrong, if I were to attend a Catholic Mass I would want it to be be very formal, solemn, and conservative. I'm assuming you and many others on this thread agree. But the vast majority of people would prefer loose music, a "chill time," and letting go at their services. Non-denominational churches do very well in that aspect.

I think this depends. It's worth noting that there are two very different strands of 'less formal' liturgical music, and the one that Catholics (especially in the West) and Mainline Protestants are more familiar with is the insipid '70s ballad/folk music-dominated kind (like this, this, and this), which appeals almost exclusively to a small number of elderly liberals. It should be plainly obvious that you're not going to attract young people (let alone anybody else) with sacred music based on the stuff that their parents found uncool decades ago, nor with invariably badly-done pop song parodies.

The kind that's attracting people is the more upbeat charismatic stuff that you get at Lakewood, Hillsong, Holy Trinity Brompton and the like. The problem with that approach for Catholics, and to a lesser extent for Mainline Protestants, is that it's not that great a fit. The Catholic Mass is centred around the Eucharist and has to follow a certain structure, whereas Lakewood, etc. (with the possible exception of HTB, which is Anglican) don't have such concerns - their services are to a large extent rock concerts with motivational speeches in between songs (the theology, again, is another difference - charismatic theology is more superficially appealing to a lot of people, and it lends itself better to upbeat pop music than the Kyrie). They also tend to have big rock concerts. Pentecostals gravitate towards 'megachurches', presumably because the bigger the congregation, the better the very specific atmosphere is, and because megachurches have the resources to do that sort of thing well*. Obviously, that's basically incompatible with a parish-based system, especially in the West, where parishes generally have small congregations. Put simply, Catholics in particular will hardly ever be able to do charismatic as well as the charismatics. And it's for that reason that despite forty years of trying to ape them in Latin America (see that video of the then Cardinal Bergoglio that Cannabis Islands linked a few pages back), the Catholic Church there is still losing ground to them at an alarming rate.

What I think would be best for the Catholic Church would be to focus on doing what is inherently our own thing - our centuries-old tradition of timeless music, music which has survived for so long precisely because its beauty is so near-universally appreciated - and to do it well (this bit is important). It may not be to everybody's tastes (although I'd argue it has the broadest appeal - I'd expect more people could agree on Palestrina or Mozart than they could on Marty Haugen or Disciple or Lady Gaga or Hillsong United), but it's what best fits the liturgy, structure, and theology of the Catholic Church, and the same probably goes for many of the Mainline Protestant churches too. Moreover, I believe it can attract, and to some extent already is attracting, people - including myself (I was non-practising before going to university). Obviously I'm not suggesting shutting down the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (or HTB), since that would be both nasty and stupid; but a robust and organised movement, with hierarchical support, promoting traditional styles of sacred music (especially over the aforementioned '70s folk/ballad stuff) within a reverent Mass, would be very nice to see indeed.

[Angleter]

My view is that there is nothing wrong with wearing casual clothes as long as it is modest and no obscene or vulgar content.

However, I do recall that in the Bible, women are required to cover their heads in church, but I never see this. I heard it is done in Anabaptist, Plymouth Brethren, and Independent Baptist churches.

Also, I don't see conservative Protestantism as shrinking because of legalism or fundamentalism, but rather it is because I don't think Christians evangelize as much as we should. Churches should be more welcoming and invite people.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying that the parts of conservative Protestantism that are growing are Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement.

As for women covering their heads in church, you haven't been to a traditionalist Catholic parish.

There's also a lot of Anglican women, and women in predominantly black churches, who still wear hats.

[Cannabis Islands]

I'm skeptical of that with regards to the general populace. Don't get me wrong, if I were to attend a Catholic Mass I would want it to be be very formal, solemn, and conservative. I'm assuming you and many others on this thread agree. But the vast majority of people would prefer loose music, a "chill time," and letting go at their services. Non-denominational churches do very well in that aspect.

I think this depends. It's worth noting that there are two very different strands of 'less formal' liturgical music, and the one that Catholics (especially in the West) and Mainline Protestants are more familiar with is the insipid '70s ballad/folk music-dominated kind (like this, this, and this), which appeals almost exclusively to a small number of elderly liberals. It should be plainly obvious that you're not going to attract young people (let alone anybody else) with sacred music based on the stuff that their parents found uncool decades ago, nor with invariably badly-done pop song parodies.

The kind that's attracting people is the more upbeat charismatic stuff that you get at Lakewood, Hillsong, Holy Trinity Brompton and the like. The problem with that approach for Catholics, and to a lesser extent for Mainline Protestants, is that it's not that great a fit. The Catholic Mass is centred around the Eucharist and has to follow a certain structure, whereas Lakewood, etc. (with the possible exception of HTB, which is Anglican) don't have such concerns - their services are to a large extent rock concerts with motivational speeches in between songs (the theology, again, is another difference - charismatic theology is more superficially appealing to a lot of people, and it lends itself better to upbeat pop music than the Kyrie). They also tend to have big rock concerts. Pentecostals gravitate towards 'megachurches', presumably because the bigger the congregation, the better the very specific atmosphere is, and because megachurches have the resources to do that sort of thing well*. Obviously, that's basically incompatible with a parish-based system, especially in the West, where parishes generally have small congregations. Put simply, Catholics in particular will hardly ever be able to do charismatic as well as the charismatics. And it's for that reason that despite forty years of trying to ape them in Latin America (see that video of the then Cardinal Bergoglio that Cannabis Islands linked a few pages back), the Catholic Church there is still losing ground to them at an alarming rate.

What I think would be best for the Catholic Church would be to focus on doing what is inherently our own thing - our centuries-old tradition of timeless music, music which has survived for so long precisely because its beauty is so near-universally appreciated - and to do it well (this bit is important). It may not be to everybody's tastes (although I'd argue it has the broadest appeal - I'd expect more people could agree on Palestrina or Mozart than they could on Marty Haugen or Disciple or Lady Gaga or Hillsong United), but it's what best fits the liturgy, structure, and theology of the Catholic Church, and the same probably goes for many of the Mainline Protestant churches too. Moreover, I believe it can attract, and to some extent already is attracting, people - including myself (I was non-practising before going to university). Obviously I'm not suggesting shutting down the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (or HTB), since that would be both nasty and stupid; but a robust and organised movement, with hierarchical support, promoting traditional styles of sacred music (especially over the aforementioned '70s folk/ballad stuff) within a reverent Mass, would be very nice to see indeed.

And I would agree with you very strongly with these facts. I see, at least over here in the United States that the Catholic Church may lose members but the remaining members will be younger and the among young Catholics, there is a thirst for a return to Tradition, like the 1962 Missal. So, I do see a return to more reverent Masses on the whole in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church.

However, what I was talking about is that among Conservative Protestantism, young people are moving toward Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement.

[Diopolis]

My view is that there is nothing wrong with wearing casual clothes as long as it is modest and no obscene or vulgar content.

However, I do recall that in the Bible, women are required to cover their heads in church, but I never see this. I heard it is done in Anabaptist, Plymouth Brethren, and Independent Baptist churches.

Also, I don't see conservative Protestantism as shrinking because of legalism or fundamentalism, but rather it is because I don't think Christians evangelize as much as we should. Churches should be more welcoming and invite people.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying that the parts of conservative Protestantism that are growing are Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement.

As for women covering their heads in church, you haven't been to a traditionalist Catholic parish.

At most (modern)Catholic services there are usually a couple of women covering their heads, at least in my experience. Not the majority, but a few.

[Cannabis Islands]

You misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying that the parts of conservative Protestantism that are growing are Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement.

As for women covering their heads in church, you haven't been to a traditionalist Catholic parish.

At most (modern)Catholic services there are usually a couple of women covering their heads, at least in my experience. Not the majority, but a few.

There is NO women covering their head in modern parishes were I live.

[Diopolis]

At most (modern)Catholic services there are usually a couple of women covering their heads, at least in my experience. Not the majority, but a few.

There is NO women covering their head in modern parishes were I live.

We don't have as much of a distinction between modern and traditional parishes where I live- I think there's one traditional parish in the entire metroplex(which is something like the fourth largest in the country)- so the ultraconservatives and Catholic fundamentalists who would normally gravitate towards traditionalism go to modern masses. That and it just being a conservative area in general.

[Cannabis Islands]

There is NO women covering their head in modern parishes were I live.

We don't have as much of a distinction between modern and traditional parishes where I live- I think there's one traditional parish in the entire metroplex(which is something like the fourth largest in the country)- so the ultraconservatives and Catholic fundamentalists who would normally gravitate towards traditionalism go to modern masses. That and it just being a conservative area in general.

The Masses here are okay, but the parishes are practically empty. The only reason trad parishes get so many people is they come from all over the city and suburbs to go there. But I don't need to worry about that.

[Othelos]

My view is that there is nothing wrong with wearing casual clothes as long as it is modest and no obscene or vulgar content.

However, I do recall that in the Bible, women are required to cover their heads in church, but I never see this. I heard it is done in Anabaptist, Plymouth Brethren, and Independent Baptist churches.

Also, I don't see conservative Protestantism as shrinking because of legalism or fundamentalism, but rather it is because I don't think Christians evangelize as much as we should. Churches should be more welcoming and invite people.

Conservative Protestantism isn't shrinking in the US, nor in general around the world.

And that bible passage (the beginning of 1 Corinthians 6) is pretty sexist, which is probably why.

[Cannabis Islands]

Pope Francis just apologized for the Church's treatment of the native in the Americas

I don't know what to say. Good, I guess but I think it a rather a bit late. It should have happened a long time ago.

[Mysterious Stranger 2]

Pope Francis just apologized for the Church's treatment of the native in the Americas

I don't know what to say. Good, I guess but I think it a rather a bit late. It should have happened a long time ago.

Fully agreed, except for the "I guess" and the "a bit"

[The Third Nova Terra of Scrin]

Conservative Protestantism isn't shrinking in the US, nor in general around the world.

And that bible passage (the beginning of 1 Corinthians 6) is pretty sexist, which is probably why.

Wrong chapter, or 1 Corinthians 5 or 7 you mean? Or somewhere else?

[The Archregimancy]

My view is that there is nothing wrong with wearing casual clothes as long as it is modest and no obscene or vulgar content.

However, I do recall that in the Bible, women are required to cover their heads in church, but I never see this. I heard it is done in Anabaptist, Plymouth Brethren, and Independent Baptist churches.

It's common in Orthodox parishes as well, though the degree to which this occurs varies. I've been in Orthodox parishes where very few women wear headscarves, and it's considered wholly a matter of personal choice, I've been in Orthodox parishes where headscarves for women are politely but firmly required - and parishes of different shades of practice between those two extremes. Some of the more conservative parishes (and this is particularly true of ROCOR - the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia that was in schism with Moscow from 1921-2007) even enforce segregation by sex within the church, with men and women standing in separate areas; but this is uncommon in my experience.

And the bit of the Bible you're looking for is 1 Corinthians 11:2-16

[Egoman]

I used to belong to a neopietist Christian revival movement inside the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. I got a lot of friends from it, even though they are very socially conservative, though not as much as the Laestadians.

[Nordengrund]

My view is that there is nothing wrong with wearing casual clothes as long as it is modest and no obscene or vulgar content.

However, I do recall that in the Bible, women are required to cover their heads in church, but I never see this. I heard it is done in Anabaptist, Plymouth Brethren, and Independent Baptist churches.

Also, I don't see conservative Protestantism as shrinking because of legalism or fundamentalism, but rather it is because I don't think Christians evangelize as much as we should. Churches should be more welcoming and invite people.

Conservative Protestantism isn't shrinking in the US, nor in general around the world.

And that bible passage (the beginning of 1 Corinthians 6) is pretty sexist, which is probably why.

Maybe not the denominations themselves in terms of membership, but in that they could be becoming more moderate.

I did some research into the headcover thing. It seems that back then that there was a feminist movement in the Roman Empire where woman cut their hair and dressed liked men and demanded to be treated like men and this was especially prevalent in the church of Corinth.

Paul got onto them by saying that God created men and women differently and that both genders serve different roles.

[Living Stones]

The most conservative elements of any sufficiently large denomination require women to cover their heads, even Pentecostals. In western cultures, in the past women would cover their heads to show respect, while men would bear them. This is why men are still expected to take off their hat for their country's national anthem. As per 1 Cor. 11, this was deliberately meant to reinforce patriarchy, as opposed to Jewish or Islamic culture where both men and women cover as a sign of respect for God. Quakers expected both men and women to cover their heads in public, though even there men would remove their hats in meeting, as they deliberately only doffed their hats for God.

Of course, most churches nowadays disregard the tradition, oddly even the ones that otherwise have very traditional gender roles. 100 years ago, any Catholic church would've required women to cover, and probably had separate seating for men and women as well, while nowadays France, a nominally Catholic country bans headcovering in schools, because it's seen as Islamic.

[Roosevelt and Truman]

Friends, after a very long time spent as an atheist I have decided to rejoin the faith community as a Roman Catholic. No doubt I'll find a home for discussion here.

[The Flutterlands]

Friends, after a very long time spent as an atheist I have decided to rejoin the faith community as a Roman Catholic. No doubt I'll find a home for discussion here.

Welcome back.

[Diopolis]

Friends, after a very long time spent as an atheist I have decided to rejoin the faith community as a Roman Catholic. No doubt I'll find a home for discussion here.

Welcome home.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

Friends, after a very long time spent as an atheist I have decided to rejoin the faith community as a Roman Catholic. No doubt I'll find a home for discussion here.

That is a good thing to hear! Welcome back!