Are leftists becoming a minority?

[Ostroeuropa]

Basically i'd say no.
Theres as many as there ever were, it's just they are either not voting, or voting differently, due to left wing parties becoming unhinged and having skewed priorities.

I'm a moderate leftie, and I'm considerably disenfranchised with the parties in the UK on the left. The greens seem to have lost what little marbles they had, and the SNP is too obsessed with independence to get my vote (if they even stood in South London!)

I'm fairly radically left wing, but would settle for a moderate left party.
And yet, none are any good.

I'd settle for an economically centrist and socially liberal party, but none seem to be available.
Fuck, at this point i'd consider voting libertarian to end the moralist nonsense.

(That right there? That's Liberal Diaspora.)

I'm a moderate leftie, and I'm considerably disenfranchised with the parties in the UK on the left. The greens seem to have lost what little marbles they had, and the SNP is too obsessed in independence to get my vote (if they even stood in South London!)

I'm somewhat similar myself (but then I'm sighing at all the main parties now).

If Labour got a grip (and that applies to any of them), maybe. But otherwise it will be a very reluctant Lib-Dem vote.

Guessing you're similar.

There is some economic bullshit in the UK, but its not like, starving in the streets desperate yet (for the vast majority), so I consider social issues a greater importance.
And yet, all the parties seem to be tripping over eachother to engage in moralistic pandering and taking shits on civil rights.

[New Werpland]

doesn't look like that so much.

The FDP is dead, mate. This is the 17th Bundestag. The Realm is now ruled by the 18th.
And the Christians have made minimum wage, raised taxes and continued transforming the energy sector into a state capitalist mess. Doesn't sound right wing.

Ah forgive my ignorance.

[Planeia]

Or extereme left authoritarian.

Maybe shouting about lining the 1% CEOs to a wall and shooting them would grab more attention. Besides feminists, the liberal socialist has lost the outrage factor that was so prevalent in the 70s.

Sad world when people prefer controversy and entertainment over information.

[Bolnoa]

Yes they are.

[Centro-Progressive Peoples Entity]

I don't think so. But it depends on the region in question. In NYC, rightists are shunned and told to leave.

[Greed and Death]

With the democrats moving from right center to right, and the Republicans advancing to goose stepping yeah the leftist are a dying breed in the US.

[Conglomerate of Iron]

[Kincoboh]

(Image)

Okay what about social anarchism?

[Conglomerate of Iron]

(Image)

Okay what about social anarchism?

How about just anarchism?

[New Werpland]

Okay what about social anarchism?

How about just anarchism?

How about Statism?

[Conglomerate of Iron]

How about just anarchism?

How about Statism?

No.

[Spoder]

What the fuck are you talking about.

Year after year, the U.S. becomes more and more progressive.

Slowly, very, very slowly. Maybe one person at a time.

But the right has been shrinking since civilization was established.

[New Aerios]

How about just anarchism?

How about Statism?

You can surrender control of your life to the state if you wish. Why should others be forced to? Why should those who have no desire to live in servitude to the state have no choice but to submit, get locked in a cage, or die?

[Camelza]

We don't have it better, at least after 5 years of austerity were implemented.

Oh yeah, totally unlike every other country in Europe that was hit by the financial crisis. UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy; a lot of these are still in austerity. I also suffer from austerity. Europe suffers from austerity. Your special snowflake syndrome is showing, Camelza. Greece isn't the bellybutton of the world.

Greece is still under austerity, the current government just decided it won't push any further austerity measures than those already in effect.
Also, please don't attack me personally, considering I've also make it clear that I'm against austerity in all of Europe, not just Greece in many of my posts in other threads.

Our country doesn't even have a de-facto minimum wage

Neither does Germany (until 1/1/15, so well after the crisis), Sweden, or Denmark, and I don't anyway see how this is related to social coverage.

No labour laws, no social security and a burgeoning unemployment combined all together make up for a an unequal poverty ridden society were the employers can threaten and ask anything of you, while you can't demand anything in return. Germany, Sweden and Denmark don't have all those combined.

speaking of better social coverage even sounds like a joke

Compared to most of Europe, Greece does in fact have higher hospital bed density, higher salaries, and (didn't think it was this but it's surprising) much higher primary, secondary, and tertiary education enrolment than, not only 'New Europe', but Germany as well. Greece also has a more developed economy, and spends more, on average, than high-income OECD countries and the (average of) the G7 countries on social welfare spending.

This graph however clearly shows, even though being contacted pre-crisis, that Greece doesn't spent as much in Social Welfare as you claim. I don't know which sources you've read, so I won't take your word for granted until I see some proof, last but not least our public education system is underfunded and in dissaray with schools being rundown institution short of teachers which provides opportunities for private education, which thrives. (Do have in mind that Greece must have more teachers than, ie; the Netherlands, due to the geocraphic nature of the country - remote islands, mountainous regions etc).

and with such a humanitarian crisis

You tell me not to use emotion, and you go ahead and use 'humanitarian crisis'. Have you ever been to Croatia? To Slovenia? To Poland? To Latvia? To the Czech Republic? And I don't mean gone to look at the pretty castles, but have you met the people there, especially those in urban communities as well as rural communities? If Greece is what you call 'a humanitarian crisis', you must think these countries as remnants of a nuclear war.

First of all, regarding the use of emotion, I simply responded to why your appeal to emotion is wrong. The Humanitarian crisis is real, you seeing this as me making an appeal to emotion is your problem, I merely state facts. You're the one saying "I lost my empathy towards Greece" in a discussion that should be overwhelmed by numbers and graphs.
Furthermore, I have travelled in much of the Balkans and I can clearly say that, ie; Belgrade, Budapest, Novi Sad and Sarajevo are far more safe and stable cities than Athens, or Thessaloniki. You clearly haven't visited industrial quarters and poor neighbourhoods in Greece either if you claim otherwise. The nations you describe are poor, however albeit being poor, they are stable societies, Greece at the moment was hit hard and a large part of the population is in complete chaos, a fact that has to be fixed if our economy is to be set straight again.

even Romania seems like a good immigration target for some of my compatriots.

I can almost guarantee that that is a lie. The 'almost' stems from the slight chance that your friend is delusional.

No, you see Romania, like many of the newly admitted EU members, is a growing economy, whereas Greece is a declining one with practically null chances to start a new career. As such many young Greeks go there to put their diplomas in practice, search it up.

Greece is shit and in a far worse situation than the countries you've listed.

Source that up for me, and 'it feelz wurs for me!!' isn't an acceptable answer.

http://inequalitywatch.eu/spip.php?article99
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_so ... yment_rate

...better situation my ass.

I understand a Greek and a Slovenian value a €1 coin differently, and a 10% cut to a Greek's salary with a doubling of a Slovenian's salary would make these two people feel very differently (even if, at the end, these two people would have the same salary), but you have to stop pretending that Greece is now third-world. Greece is still better off (and in some instances much better off) than a lot of 'New Europe'.

The problems stems that a Slovenian that would be paid 300 Euros per month without insurance (the most common way and amount of payment over here) would have to pay less for rent, electricity, common goods, etc than a Greek which makes life in Slovenia better, believe it, or not.

My girlfriend is Croatian. We talked about Greece and the living standards there, with people without doctors and little to no welfare and budget cuts and poverty and corruption after the crisis, but she didn't feel the empathy I did at the time. That was already the life in Croatia. And in Slovenia. And in the other countries I listed. I lost a lot of the empathy I felt for Greece when I saw the reality of life elsewhere. Greece really is a high-income, developed economy feeling a pinch from governmental misbehaviour, and you totally forget about the people in countries who already have it worse-- and this time I'm not only talking about Europe. Look at Greece on a world stage. Look at sub-Saharan Africa, look at South America, look at the Middle East, look at South East Asia. If Greece is as devastated as you say, what are these other, these genuinely poor countries to you?

Who said I don't clamour for countries like ie; Nigeria when they're mistreated by oil companies? Why should I support the notion that as far as we're not as bad as a sub-Saharan country we should keep our heads down? Your equation doesn't make any sense. And tell your girlfriend that Greece isn't only Mykonos and Santorini, but also the extremely poor rural regions of Epiruse and Thraki, cities like Korinthos and Serres, as well as half of Athens(the parts no tourist guide refers to), places most people never have heard of. I for once would prefer a growing and stable economically Croatian town, to the uncertainity and poverty-ridden hellhole of my town.

Now, I don't want to talk anymore about the economic crisis in Greece; the subject of the thread is "Leftists becoming a minority".

[Conglomerate of Iron]

How about Statism?

You can surrender control of your life to the state if you wish. Why should others be forced to? Why should those who have no desire to live in servitude to the state have no choice but to submit, get locked in a cage, or die?

I love you.

[Kincoboh]

Okay what about social anarchism?

How about just anarchism?

Yeah, anticapitalist anarchism is anarchism.

[Imsogone]

Right now we're assuming a move towards a popular, rejuvenated right wing because they're loud. They shout down the opposition. It's not that there are more of them, it's that you can't hear anyone else over their screeching screed. You're listening to, reading about, observing the dying shrieks of a sick, old bull elephant that is doing it's damnedest to convince everyone that it still lives, is still viable. The elephant knows it's dying and is determined to destroy as much as it can before it goes.

[Draakonite]

Right now we're assuming a move towards a popular, rejuvenated right wing because they're loud. They shout down the opposition. It's not that there are more of them, it's that you can't hear anyone else over their screeching screed. You're listening to, reading about, observing the dying shrieks of a sick, old bull elephant that is doing it's damnedest to convince everyone that it still lives, is still viable. The elephant knows it's dying and is determined to destroy as much as it can before it goes.

If destroying as much as it can means lifting millions out of poverty, i prefer the elephant staying in the porcelain shop.

[Shaggai]

Okay what about social anarchism?

How about just anarchism?

See, the thing with anarchism is that it's unstable. If you don't have a major coordinating power with a monopoly on force, then someone will establish one.

[Diopolis]

Which is also not, strictly speaking, right-wing, except in the sense of it being the status quo. Actual right-wing economics are laissez-faire or traditionalist(distributist/producerist or mercantilist). Conservatives, especially relatively moderate conservatives, tend to defend neoliberalism because that's how things already work, and conservatives do that.

If you define 'right-wing' as capitalistic, neoliberalism is leaning 'far right'.

I define right wing as "placing more importance on traditional values and institutions than on progressive ones". So while there are certainly capitalist right-wingers, not all right-wingers are capitalists. Distributists, for example, are far-right, but many would actually be offended to be called capitalist.

[Diopolis]

How about Statism?

You can surrender control of your life to the state if you wish. Why should others be forced to? Why should those who have no desire to live in servitude to the state have no choice but to submit, get locked in a cage, or die?

Because people who don't surrender control of their lives to the state, in a best case scenario, take advantage of the services of the state without contributing(and no, there isn't any way not to. You get private services? Great, those services have depressed prices because the government offers a more affordable alternative. You don't call the police when you're in trouble? You still benefit from them keeping crime from bothering you in the first place.), and in a worst case scenario sabotage things.

[MERIZoC]

If you define 'right-wing' as capitalistic, neoliberalism is leaning 'far right'.

I define right wing as "placing more importance on traditional values and institutions than on progressive ones". So while there are certainly capitalist right-wingers, not all right-wingers are capitalists. Distributists, for example, are far-right, but many would actually be offended to be called capitalist.

Not all right-wingers are capitalists, but the vast majority of capitalists are right-wingers. Tradition doesn't really matter within the left-right scheme of things. Those deal with pure economics.

[Shaggai]

I define right wing as "placing more importance on traditional values and institutions than on progressive ones". So while there are certainly capitalist right-wingers, not all right-wingers are capitalists. Distributists, for example, are far-right, but many would actually be offended to be called capitalist.

Not all right-wingers are capitalists, but the vast majority of capitalists are right-wingers. Tradition doesn't really matter within the left-right scheme of things. Those deal with pure economics.

The problem is that left and right are loose coalitions of only vaguely related interests. In general, tradition is the main thing that determines left and right. Capitalism happens to have gotten bound up in the entire mess, but economics are at best loosely connected to left and right in their actual use.

[Arkolon]

Camelza, I know you don't want to pursue the conversation, but you can't even read your own graph... It only proves my point. Greece spends as much as 6 times more on social spending per head than Cyprus, Portugal, Slovenia, Malta, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, and Bulgaria (edit: and Poland! My oh my, you've sure made yourself look bad). That's what I've been trying to tell you all along. Despite the crisis, Greece remains moderately wealthy on a European level. And you have got to find a good reason to these millions of people living in these countries, in these conditions far worse than Greece's (and yet in the European Union, mind you!) as to why Greece deserves some relaxed measures on its debt and borrowing power. You'll need a seriously good lawyer, or perhaps a hypnotist, to convince these people that, despite everything, Eastern and Central Europeans are more undeserving than Greeks.

I've had enough too. You've clearly demonstrated that your heart only lies in your own interests, totally oblivious to the realities of elsewhere in the European Union. You treat Greece as if it was as poor as Nigeria, but when asked about Nigeria you say it shouldn't be compared to it. Greece is not third-world. Greece tops the list of the rich countries out there.

[Aeuria]

Nope.