Women and sexism.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

OK I'll try and get us on track.
I think the system of Patriarchy does great harm for both men and women by placing them both in unrealistic expectation bubbles according to their gender.

The typical response to men being physically abused by women is one such example.
Ever watch that episode of What Would You Do?

On what basis do you attribute this to patriarchy instead of say, cultural memetics?
Does culture often stay bound within institutions?
I'm well aware of that time the civil rights movement was imposed top down, for instance.
No, seriously, whence the notion of top-down culture?

When those in power use it as a bludgeon to whip their supporters into demagoguery, yes.

Culture politics is a big thing.

[Stormwind-City]

I had a discussion on another thread about it, I don't want derail, so I'm starting a new debate here.

First:
http://www.thepostathens.com/opinion/wo ... d655c.html

On Friday afternoon, I was tabling outside of Baker Center for the International Women's Day Festival held Sunday by the Ohio University Women’s Center when a man came up to me saying the Women's Center should be shut down because it is sexist against men.
He said that while in a recent job interview, the female interviewer remarked, “all white men created poverty.” The man said he had the “equivalent of eight college degrees” but this woman wasn’t going to be fair in her hiring because of her comment. I apologized for his experience and explained that one woman does not represent all women or the entirety of feminism, which works toward the equality of both sexes and all genders — not women over men — socially and economically. He told me he supports equity feminism but not gender feminism, which the Women’s Center apparently promotes. I again apologized that his experiences caused him to have that view, but responded saying that it wasn’t representative of the entire movement. He said it’s not just his experience, but that of a lot of men. Then he left.
But a few minutes later, he came back, this time more hostile with his words. He claimed that it was sexist that the multicultural center has a “Women of Appalachia” group, but not a “Men of Appalachia” group. “How is that not sexist?” he said. I started to explain that women can’t be sexist, that reverse racism doesn’t exist, but he cut me off before I could finish. He started yelling, “That’s bullshit! That is complete bullshit!” and walked away. I tried calling after him, asking him to hear me out, but he just kept walking.
So, sir, if you are reading this, please listen. Women cannot be sexist; the same way people of color cannot be racist. In the 2014 film Dear White People, the main character says, “Black people can't be racist. Prejudice, yes, but not racist. Racism describes a system of disadvantage based on race. Black people can't be racist since we don't stand to benefit from such a system.” Replace “black people” with “women” and “racist/racism/race” with “sexist/sexism/sex” and that is the point I was trying to convey.
Women can be prejudiced against men. But just as #notallmen are sexist, not all women are anti-man. There are many different discourses of feminism, and the majority believe in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes.
I’m not an expert on women’s issues, but if I have learned anything from my Women’s and Gender Studies and diversity studies classes, it’s about how to talk about the issues without shutting people down. I stayed calm, I did not raise my voice, I addressed this stranger as “sir” and was as polite as possible. I listened to what he said. I did not cut him off.
But it was no use. The other party must be at least open to hearing an opinion other than his own for a discussion to be had and progress to be made.
This man did not want to debate sexism with me; he wanted to condemn feminism and make himself feel better. No wonder we have a women’s center. We need it. For men, for women, for everyone. We all need to have conversations about what feminism means and how to achieve equality.
Post columnist Jessica Ensley does an amazing job with her column, Lean in Further by discounting reverse sexism and racism. And week after week, men similar to the one I encountered attack her and her views. These commentators make her column all the more necessary.
I can’t speak for Jessica or for all other women and feminists, but I think most would agree when I say that I don’t hate men. I don’t even completely hate sexist, misogynistic “meninists” like the one I encountered. I hate sexism and prejudice and want to have honest conversations with people, especially those who misunderstand the issues.

I agree with her, on every single word.

This is a definition of sexism, the one I consider the real one:

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.co ... efinition/

When feminists say that women can’t be sexist towards men, they aren’t saying that women being prejudiced against men is a good thing, or something that should be accepted. Prejudice is bad and should not be accepted.

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s look at why feminists make a distinction between sexism and gender-based prejudice when the dictionary does not. A running theme in a lot of feminist theory is that of institutional power: men as a class have it, women as a class don’t. Obviously the power dynamics do shift around depending on the culture and the time period (not to mention the individual, the other privileges that the person does/does not have, etc etc), but ultimately the scales remain tipped in favor of men in general (if you disagree with that statement, please go read the Why do we still need feminism? FAQ entry first before proceeding)

....

Personally, I mean in the little picture, this [assertion that men can be victims] is absolutely true. As in the example below, a woman can absolutely fire a man because she does not like men… this is where we use the term “prejudice.” This is mainly because she doesn’t have anything institutional to back her up.

In the big picture, we are talking about grand narratives that say XYZ about women, or where certain behaviors are enacted disproportionately against women. And it has something institutional behind it. For instance, the overarching trend of not wanting to hire women between the ages of 25 and 35 because it’s assumed that either a) she wants a family or b) she has a family and will the primary caretaker of the family so she will make a bad employee. This, for purposes here, it’s what called “sexism”. It’s just used to describe the big picture and not the small picture.

Sexism is a primary issue, and it's deeply rooted in our culture, so rooted that sometimes is almost invisible

http://feministing.com/2015/03/12/frien ... t-sexists/

The researchers point out that, while everyone likes a benevolent sexist better than a hostile one, both perpetuate gender inequality — and sexism that cloaks itself in friendliness may actually be more treacherous. “These supposed gestures of good faith may entice women to accept the status quo in society because sexism literally looks welcoming, appealing, and harmless.”

Sexism is everywhere

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/why- ... e-smarter/

This is why I think men win more arguments: They pull rank. Even nice, non-abusive men do it. We have all unilaterally taken action like this when, like Joe, we thought we could get away with it. (And yes, I realize people will disagree in comments. And I will disbelieve them, precisely because humans are so good at lying to ourselves.) But men have an advantage in that they can pull rank. Some do it subtly and some are willing to straight up intimidate their partners when they disagree, but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a man who can, 100% of the time, withstand that urge to win an argument by leaning on thousands of years of social teachings that hold that men are more trustworthy than women.

Sexism, even the so-called "benevolent" sexism, finally hold the door to rape culture.
That's why I think that, due a similar unbalance in power, it would be unfair to cry "sexism" from women: some women can be prejudiced (most women aren't) against men, but "sexism" it's just another thing.

What do you think about it, NSGs?

This is a definition of sexism, the one I consider the real one:

So that's the standard you're setting? I have great expectations.

That's why I think that, due a similar unbalance in power, it would be unfair to cry "sexism" from women: some women can be prejudiced (most women aren't) against men, but "sexism" it's just another thing.

In no definition of any X-ism or X-ist does it say the person being X-ist have to have institutional power. Being X-ist means you are prejudiced and/or stereotype X. If the X-ist has institutional power that can become discrimination, which is part of X-ism, but not all of it.

[Ostroeuropa]

On what basis do you attribute this to patriarchy instead of say, cultural memetics?
Does culture often stay bound within institutions?
I'm well aware of that time the civil rights movement was imposed top down, for instance.
No, seriously, whence the notion of top-down culture?

When those in power use it as a bludgeon to whip their supporters into demagoguery, yes.

Culture politics is a big thing.

Yeh man.
Hence why Wales isn't a thing anymore.
You think it's a coincidence feminism sprang up during the whole imperialist age when we were dead certain culture was a top-down thing that could be moulded and controlled and woops, we weer pretty fucking wrong about that, I guess the natives are rebelling!

[Chessmistress]

And the 99% bit where you erase male rape victims.

Strawman
My words

Or, maybe, it maybe due the fact 99% of rapes are performed by males against both women and males?

I cited even male victims, and I just said the truth: 99% perpetrators are males.

Feel free to counter argue but response will not be coming.

Thank you for allowing my answer, my lord

I'm a gender abolitionist.
I'd also accept being called an MRA, but don't identify as one. I think gender is ultimately a social construct that will be eradicated once/if sexism and gender roles are eradicated, and that this is a positive thing.
You'll notice I pointed out the behaviors feminists engage in that are sexist, and why they are sexist. I also provided a way they can avoid this.
If you disagree with why the behaviors I pointed out are sexist, you can argue it.

The reason i'd consider feminist/MRA acceptable is that I think the feminist movement is too tarnished at this point to be worth identifying with, what with the research suppression and such.
Identifying with a movement that enabled widespread societal oppression strikes me as pretty suspect. But if you also identify as being for the rights of the group that movement has historically oppressed, that's acceptable. Just a bit strange.

Funny thing is that I really like bold parts.
But I would write it so

I'm a gender abolitionist.
I think gender is ultimately a social construct that will be eradicated once/if sexism and gender roles are eradicated, and that this is a positive thing.
You'll notice I couldn't care less to point out the behaviors MRA engage, because I really think they're beyond redempition.
If you disagree with them you're immediatly labeled as misandrist / nazi, everybody can see it even in this thread, multiple times.

The reason I consider MRA unacceptable is that I think MRA is a movement that, on the whole (maybe there are some individual exceptions, but I don't really know and however it doesn't matter when we have to judge the whole movement), support widespread societal oppression against women, trying to push them backward, trying to erase their rights.

[Aidannadia]

A terf, a sex-negative, and a misandrist.

Sex-negative? That's a mislead.
Reality is: against pornography, not against sex.
Pornography is the opposite of real sex, and it fuel rape culture, it depicts women as sexual objects.

“A woman reading Playboy feels a little like a Jew reading a Nazi manual.” - Gloria Steinem

"Sex-positive" term is just a mislead, a fiction created by the sex industry - in fact it means "pro-pornography".

“The Western sexual revolution sucks. It has not worked well enough for women.” - Naomi Wolf

Naomi Wolf is not a radical feminist, you know?


TERF doesn't means hatred of transexuals: it just only means don't think they can fully share the experiences of women-born-women.
TERFs think every issue transexuals have will be solved with the abolition of gender.


Misandry? Where? Really? Please, just try to quote something from me that seems hatred towards men.

You might need to see a healthy dose of pornography to realize that it is not just demeaning to women. I agree that the pornography business buy-n-large is riddled with horrible atrocities, including legitimate rape.

However, there is porn of "femdom" where usually a group of women sexual abuses a man. Granted, the pornography industry was founded with a male market in mind, but women are a growing group that is beginning to take an interest in watching pornography and trying to demonize women who want to express and explore their sexuality is counter-productive in freeing them from the hard set gender roles we have in society.

[Stormwind-City]

And the 99% bit where you erase male rape victims.

Strawman
My words

Or, maybe, it maybe due the fact 99% of rapes are performed by males against both women and males?

I cited even male victims, and I just said the truth: 99% perpetrators are males.

Feel free to counter argue but response will not be coming.

Thank you for allowing my answer, my lord

I'm a gender abolitionist.
I'd also accept being called an MRA, but don't identify as one. I think gender is ultimately a social construct that will be eradicated once/if sexism and gender roles are eradicated, and that this is a positive thing.
You'll notice I pointed out the behaviors feminists engage in that are sexist, and why they are sexist. I also provided a way they can avoid this.
If you disagree with why the behaviors I pointed out are sexist, you can argue it.

The reason i'd consider feminist/MRA acceptable is that I think the feminist movement is too tarnished at this point to be worth identifying with, what with the research suppression and such.
Identifying with a movement that enabled widespread societal oppression strikes me as pretty suspect. But if you also identify as being for the rights of the group that movement has historically oppressed, that's acceptable. Just a bit strange.

Funny thing is that I really like bold parts.
But I would write it so

I'm a gender abolitionist.
I think gender is ultimately a social construct that will be eradicated once/if sexism and gender roles are eradicated, and that this is a positive thing.
You'll notice I couldn't care less to point out the behaviors MRA engage, because I really think they're beyond redempition.
If you disagree with them you're immediatly labeled as misandrist / nazi, everybody can see it even in this thread, multiple times.

The reason I consider MRA unacceptable is that I think MRA is a movement that, on the whole (maybe there are some individual exceptions, but I don't really know and however it doesn't matter when we have to judge the whole movement), support widespread societal oppression against women, trying to push them backward, trying to erase their rights.

"Truth"

Right. So you'll be willing to cite sources, from police and crime tracking organizations, stating this?

[Dumb Ideologies]

TERF doesn't means hatred of transexuals: it just only means don't think they can fully share the experiences of women-born-women..

Women have a very diverse range of experiences. A transwoman has different experiences from a ciswoman. A black woman has different experiences from a white woman. A lesbian has different experiences from a straight woman. They're all still women; any group of "feminists" that seeks to divide and exclude sections of women from female spaces and denigrates their experiences/defines them as inferior needs to be called out on their bullshit by other feminists or the whole lot of them are hypocrites who only have a paper commitment to their ideals.

Be critical of TERFs or stop calling yourself a feminist.

It's people like you who are the reason I refuse to identify myself as a feminist.

[Genivaria]

I cited even male victims, and I just said the truth: 99% perpetrators are males.

Ah so you're a misandrist. Got it.

[Aidannadia]

I cited even male victims, and I just said the truth: 99% perpetrators are males.

Ah so you're a misandrist. Got it.

The reason for that statistic is because of a change in the definition of rape in 2013 to only include people who were forced to envelope without consent. Men who are forced to penetrate are not "raped" under the definition. Source

[Genivaria]

Ah so you're a misandrist. Got it.

The reason for that statistic is because of a change in the definition of rape in 2013 to only include people who were forced to envelope without consent. Men who are forced to penetrate are not "raped" under the definition. Source

Which is pretty damn discriminatory.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Ah so you're a misandrist. Got it.

The reason for that statistic is because of a change in the definition of rape in 2013 to only include people who were forced to envelope without consent. Men who are forced to penetrate are not "raped" under the definition. Source

Because, of course, that isn't in any way based on outdated stereotypes about culture and power.

Not the American government, no sir.

[Stormwind-City]

Ah so you're a misandrist. Got it.

The reason for that statistic is because of a change in the definition of rape in 2013 to only include people who were forced to envelope without consent. Men who are forced to penetrate are not "raped" under the definition. Source

Gee, it's like there is a stereotype that only men are capable of raping people.

It's not like stereotypes based on sex enforced through law have a word for that or anything.

:/

[Gauthier]

The reason for that statistic is because of a change in the definition of rape in 2013 to only include people who were forced to envelope without consent. Men who are forced to penetrate are not "raped" under the definition. Source

Gee, it's like there is a stereotype that only men are capable of raping people.

It's not like stereotypes based on sex enforced through law have a word for that or anything.

:/

A thread started by a straw feminist attracting MRAs like a Japanese Beetle Trap. Go figure.

[Aidannadia]

The reason for that statistic is because of a change in the definition of rape in 2013 to only include people who were forced to envelope without consent. Men who are forced to penetrate are not "raped" under the definition. Source

Which is pretty damn discriminatory.

I agree. It should be changed again, but personally I wouldn't know how to word it, but I digress.

[Lesser Qing]

I found someone who has similar opinions or might be the OP. What she says ia hilarious.

http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=87815

[Chessmistress]

However, there is porn of "femdom" where usually a group of women sexual abuses a man. Granted, the pornography industry was founded with a male market in mind, but women are a growing group that is beginning to take an interest in watching pornography and trying to demonize women who want to express and explore their sexuality is counter-productive in freeing them from the hard set gender roles we have in society.

Do you think that depicting a group of women sexually abusing a man is realistic and healthy? It's a good depiction of women? That's really what we need to fight sexism? That is the real solution to counter rape culture, depicting women raping men? Really?
No, I don't think it is.
Nor is "teach men not to rape": that's good, but not enough.
We should outlaw any message in movies and tv shows that could be interpreted as a "male-dominating-women", we should mandate that any woman should be portrayed as an independent and strong person. In the plots any sexual advance by men should be avoided, and women should be depicted to fully handle their own interests towards men or women.
We should remove naked women from movies, magazines, tv shows, etc. because they're only promoting the idea that "a woman is just only a sexual object".
We should incentive males being hired in server positions, i.e. waiters, in order to show to the society that men can be service-oriented exactly as women are.
We should incentive males willing to work in teaching or in child care, so we'll not have anymore women enforced into the "mommy" mindset.
Pointing out we have a "rape culture" isn't really helpful and could be even counterproductive: basically you're telling to rapists (please note: "rapists", not "men") that they're just only a part of the current culture, and by doing so you're just "normalizing" the issue.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Which is pretty damn discriminatory.

I agree. It should be changed again, but personally I wouldn't know how to word it, but I digress.

Rape is classified as someone engaging in physical non-consensual sexual activities.

Ta da!

[Galloism]

Or, maybe, it maybe due the fact 99% of rapes are performed by males against both women and males?

I cited even male victims, and I just said the truth: 99% perpetrators are males.

question:

A man is drunk or high to the point he is passed out or nearly so.

A woman comes in, coaxes him into an erection via manual stimulation, and rides him to her heart's content. He doesn't even have enough cognizance to know what's going on.

Rape or not rape?

[Chessmistress]

I found someone who has similar opinions or might be the OP. What she says ia hilarious.

http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=87815

That's just an horrible joke.
I never write about brutalization of men.
Check it: I just said there's a difference between "sexism" and "prejudice".

[Lesser Qing]

Btw chessmistress, the FEMEN question remains unanswered and it's "wrote" not "writed"

[Aidannadia]

However, there is porn of "femdom" where usually a group of women sexual abuses a man. Granted, the pornography industry was founded with a male market in mind, but women are a growing group that is beginning to take an interest in watching pornography and trying to demonize women who want to express and explore their sexuality is counter-productive in freeing them from the hard set gender roles we have in society.

Do you think that depicting a group of women sexually abusing a man is realistic and healthy? It's a good depiction of women? That's really what we need to fight sexism? That is the real solution to counter rape culture, depicting women raping men? Really?
No, I don't think it is.
Nor is "teach men not to rape": that's good, but not enough.
We should outlaw any message in movies and tv shows that could be interpreted as a "male-dominating-women", we should mandate that any woman should be portrayed as an independent and strong person. In the plots any sexual advance by men should be avoided, and women should be depicted to fully handle their own interests towards men or women.
We should remove naked women from movies, magazines, tv shows, etc. because they're only promoting the idea that "a woman is just only a sexual object".
We should incentive males being hired in server positions, i.e. waiters, in order to show to the society that men can be service-oriented exactly as women are.
We should incentive males willing to work in teaching or in child care, so we'll not have anymore women enforced into the "mommy" mindset.
Pointing out we have a "rape culture" isn't really helpful and could be even counterproductive: basically you're telling to rapists (please note: "rapists", not "men") that they're just only a part of the current culture, and by doing so you're just "normalizing" the issue.

Sexual abuse is not healthy. I did not wish to present that it ever is.

What are your opinions on BDSM, however, which can be practiced in very healthy ways? Perhaps We're getting a bit off topic with the sex stuff.

Remove naked women from magazines? I'd be fine with naked men and women being in magazines.

I don't know about subsidizing men in service or pre-school jobs. As a society, we should move past the cultural stigma for men in the careers.

[Chessmistress]

I cited even male victims, and I just said the truth: 99% perpetrators are males.

question:

A man is drunk or high to the point he is passed out or nearly so.

A woman comes in, coaxes him into an erection via manual stimulation, and rides him to her heart's content. He doesn't even have enough cognizance to know what's going on.

Rape or not rape?

That's rape, of course.
The man was drunk: he couldn't give informed consent.

Question:
It's just an invented example (or maybe a dream), or it's a really happened case?

[Ostroeuropa]

Which is pretty damn discriminatory.

I agree. It should be changed again, but personally I wouldn't know how to word it, but I digress.

The envelopment or penetration of a sexual organ without the consent of the victim, or penetration of the mouth or anus by a sexual organ without the consent of the victim.

[Aidannadia]

I agree. It should be changed again, but personally I wouldn't know how to word it, but I digress.

Rape is classified as someone engaging in physical non-consensual sexual activities.

Ta da!

Is groping rape then? I fear that you may disproportionately punish people with that definition.

I agree. It should be changed again, but personally I wouldn't know how to word it, but I digress.

The envelopment or penetration of a sexual organ without the consent of the victim, or penetration of the mouth or anus by a sexual organ without the consent of the victim.

I like this one actually.

[Ostroeuropa]

question:

A man is drunk or high to the point he is passed out or nearly so.

A woman comes in, coaxes him into an erection via manual stimulation, and rides him to her heart's content. He doesn't even have enough cognizance to know what's going on.

Rape or not rape?

That's rape, of course.
The man was drunk: he couldn't give informed consent.

Question:
It's just an invented example (or maybe a dream), or it's a really happened case?

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ ... ulted.html


"A recent analysis of BJS data, for example, turned up that 46 percent of male victims reported a female perpetrator."

couple that with the rape parity things, and a quarter of rapes, ish, are performed by women.
That's just reports. Men aren't very likely to report their rape.
Some are even encouraged to be happy they've been raped and will get angry if you point out it was rape.