God and the World, what do you think? [Does God Exist II]

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Guys, I have a question, and I think it's relevant to the argument:

Do you think humans are inherently rational beings?

I think that kind of essentialism is baseless. Humans are rational and emotional. Both together are necessary for most people's definition of what it means to be human.

[Shaggai]

The default for the probability of any hypothesis is 50%, weighted by complexity and normalized over all possible hypotheses. A claim that something cannot exist is saying that the probability of that hypothesis is 0%. This is lower than the default, so you are claiming that the probability of that hypothesis should be changed. Any change in probability requires evidence.

The concept, devised by unknowledgeable ancient people, is a powerful immaterial being capable of manipulating energy in ways that defy logic and basic physics. I'd say that's a 0% chance.

What defies logic about God? Nothing has a 0% probability unless it defies logic. Physics is irrelevant in the context of an omnipotent being.

[Jack O Land]

Wouldn't a non-caused event be prove of a transcendent being?

No.

In fact, I'll go further. Not only does it not prove it, it doesn't even suggest it. Quite the contrary - a non-caused event doesn't require a cause (the clue is right there), whether that 'cause' be a transcendent being or otherwise.

And that's where you keep falling down - you keep assuming that things that happened 'before' our universe's laws applied must be governed by those laws... and you keep assuming that a 'god' needs to be shoehorned into any paradigm, whether or not it is needed, or even fits.

someone finally said it

It's not really possible to disprove God with science, guys, but I think it is possible to determine whether or not He can directly affect the world, which I think, in spite of the ubiquity of prayers, most of us can agree that it's not the case. If we have to ask ourselves where the world came from, and answer that it was created by a transcendent being (which I'm not entirely closed to the possibility of), then we can then ask where that transcendent being that created us came from, and end up back where we started, having obtained nothing of practical value. To me, it's not really important what created the world, any more than I care about the average temperature on the surface of Betelgeuse a couple million years ago. It's insignificant, and, even if there was a transcendent being that created it, so what? That's not evidence of an afterlife, or the existence of any religion we believe in currently. That just means there are things beyond our understanding, which we already knew in the first place.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

The concept, devised by unknowledgeable ancient people, is a powerful immaterial being capable of manipulating energy in ways that defy logic and basic physics. I'd say that's a 0% chance.

What defies logic about God? Nothing has a 0% probability unless it defies logic.

The fact that this:

Physics is irrelevant in the context of an omnipotent being.

Is a moot point since God doesn't exist in the first place, so his supposed existence still defies logic.

[Jack O Land]

They're not whipping it out in public, they're doing it in the privacy of their own forum. I think we can all agree that this is one of the best possible places for theological debate outside an academic setting.

Guys, I have a question, and I think it's relevant to the argument:

Do you think humans are inherently rational beings?

Depends on what you mean.

Humans have inherent cognitive biases. But those biases conform to evolutionary rationality.

Pretty much.

What about prayers? Why do people pray?

If you ask someone why they pray, most people will respond that, of course they know it doesn't actually do anything, but it brings them comfort anyways. That's not rational.

During the Asch conformity studies in 1951, subjects were asked to answer a question about the length of a line. Often, they'd agree with their peers on the wrong answer, even when the answer is obvious to you or I, in order to fit in. That's not rational.

When asked about the trolley problem (would you murder 1 man to save 5 lives), many people expressed reluctance to kill the one man to save the five. That's not rational.

What this means, then, is that if you get enough people to say that two plus two is five, you can eventually get enough people to believe that two plus two is five. This is obviously more effective if you get a crowd to spread a message that is ultimately reassuring & answers big questions simply. To me, charisma combined with mob mentality is a much more compelling argument for the formation of religion than divine, massively detailed action on the part of an omnipotent being responsible for creating an infinitely large world that is elegant in its simplicity, yet subtle in its complexity.

Formation of religions is just a natural part of human society. Otherwise, how can we explain that all over the world, completely independent of one another, belief in a wide variety of omnipotent beings sprung up as civilization came to be? Why has atheism always been viewed as an aberration?

To me, religion is a positive way to unite and comfort people on a large scale, and that is it. Faith is our blessing, and fundamentalism is our curse.

[Sun Wukong]

Depends on what you mean.

Humans have inherent cognitive biases. But those biases conform to evolutionary rationality.

Pretty much.

What about prayers? Why do people pray?

If you ask someone why they pray, most people will respond that, of course they know it doesn't actually do anything, but it brings them comfort anyways. That's not rational.

During the Asch conformity studies in 1951, subjects were asked to answer a question about the length of a line. Often, they'd agree with their peers on the wrong answer, even when the answer is obvious to you or I, in order to fit in. That's not rational.

When asked about the trolley problem (would you murder 1 man to save 5 lives), many people expressed reluctance to kill the one man to save the five. That's not rational.

What this means, then, is that if you get enough people to say that two plus two is five, you can eventually get enough people to believe that two plus two is five. This is obviously more effective if you get a crowd to spread a message that is ultimately reassuring & answers big questions simply. To me, charisma combined with mob mentality is a much more compelling argument for the formation of religion than divine, massively detailed action on the part of an omnipotent being responsible for creating an infinitely large world that is elegant in its simplicity, yet subtle in its complexity.

Formation of religions is just a natural part of human society. Otherwise, how can we explain that all over the world, completely independent of one another, belief in a wide variety of omnipotent beings sprung up as civilization came to be? Why has atheism always been viewed as an aberration?

To me, religion is a positive way to unite and comfort people on a large scale, and that is it. Faith is our blessing, and fundamentalism is our curse.

The appeal to nature is a double-edged sword, and you would be wise to avoid it.

The last two paragraphs could easily be modified to justify slavery, after all.

All of which is incidental, because truth is justified unto itself.

[Federal Afrikun Republic]

Ok...this got complicated quick. I'm kinda CONFUSED. Since we are talking god which god is it...Yahweh, Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, God, Zues, Osiris, Yoruba gods, etc. Who or which?

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Ok...this got complicated quick. I'm kinda CONFUSED. Since we are talking god which god is it...Yahweh, Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, God, Zues, Osiris, Yoruba gods, etc. Who or which?

I'm pretty sure 'any and all' possible dirties are on the table here.

None of them have good evidence, after all.

[Jute]

Not temporary, eternal free will.

I don't see how stopping bad people from doing bad things is a violation of free will.
Do cops have a power god doesn't?

How do you suppose God does it? By acting as a policeman everywhere? Not everyone listens to them. The only way would be to alter a person's mind directly, which would definitely be violating their free will.

[Vilatania]

Praise Jesus Guys!

[Jack O Land]

Pretty much.

What about prayers? Why do people pray?

If you ask someone why they pray, most people will respond that, of course they know it doesn't actually do anything, but it brings them comfort anyways. That's not rational.

During the Asch conformity studies in 1951, subjects were asked to answer a question about the length of a line. Often, they'd agree with their peers on the wrong answer, even when the answer is obvious to you or I, in order to fit in. That's not rational.

When asked about the trolley problem (would you murder 1 man to save 5 lives), many people expressed reluctance to kill the one man to save the five. That's not rational.

What this means, then, is that if you get enough people to say that two plus two is five, you can eventually get enough people to believe that two plus two is five. This is obviously more effective if you get a crowd to spread a message that is ultimately reassuring & answers big questions simply. To me, charisma combined with mob mentality is a much more compelling argument for the formation of religion than divine, massively detailed action on the part of an omnipotent being responsible for creating an infinitely large world that is elegant in its simplicity, yet subtle in its complexity.

Formation of religions is just a natural part of human society. Otherwise, how can we explain that all over the world, completely independent of one another, belief in a wide variety of omnipotent beings sprung up as civilization came to be? Why has atheism always been viewed as an aberration?

To me, religion is a positive way to unite and comfort people on a large scale, and that is it. Faith is our blessing, and fundamentalism is our curse.

The appeal to nature is a double-edged sword, and you would be wise to avoid it.

The last two paragraphs could easily be modified to justify slavery, after all.

All of which is incidental, because truth is justified unto itself.

I'm not saying religion is natural and therefore good. I'm saying it is natural and therefore not divinely inspired. If religion came from our own minds, then we have no more reason to believe that it is the word of God than anything else.

However, I am saying that, even though it defies logic, religion is a positive societal force. At its best, it provides children with an easily accessible moral code. It encourages empathy and altruistic behavior with no physical reward. It brings a great deal of comfort to millions of people. It is the opiate of the masses, and when it's not being abused by demagogues to get their way & abuse minorities, it really is lovely. Slavery is natural too, but it's an obviously horrid practice. It's very rational, downright Darwinian, and as a matter of fact, the majority of the abolitionists working to end slavery were influenced by Christian ideals (re: second Great Awakening) and moral codes.

[Risottia]

Praise Jesus Guys!

[Risottia]

I don't see how stopping bad people from doing bad things is a violation of free will.
Do cops have a power god doesn't?

How do you suppose God does it?

By raising his pinky.

[Vilatania]

Praise Jesus Guys!

[Risottia]

It's not an April Fool: I'm ACTUALLY a Terminator.

True story!

[Salandriagado]

The concept, devised by unknowledgeable ancient people, is a powerful immaterial being capable of manipulating energy in ways that defy logic and basic physics. I'd say that's a 0% chance.

What defies logic about God? Nothing has a 0% probability unless it defies logic. Physics is irrelevant in the context of an omnipotent being.

This is not true. I've already given an example of something that is definitely logical with zero probability (picking a random number from [0,1] which does not contain the digit "3" in its decimal expansion). Zero probability =/= impossible.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Praise Jesus Guys!

Oh, it seems I was beaten to the punch....

[Genivaria]

I don't see how stopping bad people from doing bad things is a violation of free will.

Do cops have a power god doesn't?

How do you suppose God does it? By acting as a policeman everywhere? Not everyone listens to them. The only way would be to alter a person's mind directly, which would definitely be violating their free will.

You have a small imagination.

Superman and Spiderman seem to stop bad guys just fine without mind control.

[Vilatania]

What defies logic about God? Nothing has a 0% probability unless it defies logic. Physics is irrelevant in the context of an omnipotent being.

This is not true. I've already given an example of something that is definitely logical with zero probability (picking a random number from [0,1] which does not contain the digit "3" in its decimal expansion). Zero probability =/= impossible.

This is correct, there is such a thing as 0% probability. And 0% probability does not mean impossible. 0% probably means that it currently is not possible, however that probability is subject to increase if the circumstances change. If we say that 1+1=2 that statement is true. There is 0% probability chance that that statement is incorrect. However we replace the number 2 with 3, then the statement becomes false and there is a 100% probability chance that it is incorrect. In this situation the answer would change from 1+1=2 to 1+1=3. Obviously this would never happen, but it's an example of how nothing can ever be truly impossible.

I think a lot of people including myself incorrectly use the word impossible to describe 0% probability because it's easier to say. However in the case of the possibility for a god other than one that we've fabricated like the Christian God for example, we cannot accurately state that there is a 0% probability for it. The probability IS very low, but it is not zero. Probability for the Christian God is 0%.

Looking deeper into the subject of the Christian God. It's probability is obviously zero. Initially you might think it is entirely impossible because it stakes a claim on past events that simply didn't occur in the way the religion claims and is thus false. However, we cannot say that these events could not be changed. As a result, it is not entirely impossible but a major change would have to occur for it to become probable.

Another example for probability vs impossibility: Take a blank piece of note book paper. Since it's blank there is a 0% probability that something is written on it, and you have observed this to be true. Now write something on it. That probability of 0% is now 100% because the circumstances have now been altered by you writing on it.

Praise Jesus Guys!

Oh, it seems I was beaten to the punch....

[Putainsky]

"Naturally caused" catastrophes, within a setting featuring an omnipotent and omniscient creator deity, would be entirely that deity's fault.
As for, again, omnipotent and omniscient creator deities who just happen to sit by and watch as, dunno, the Nazis march millions of people to the gas chambers, guilty again for knowing it, being able to stop it, and refusing to do so.

Some people believe God is fiction.

Others believe what you just uttered is fiction

Also, here is question no one seems to have asked before....


What if we're ALL Gods, just some less aware than others?
For example the Mods are Gods in NationStates. Incompetent, corrupt, senile Gods, nontheless..

But why should you think Gods are somehow perfect? What if being yourself is perfect? What if there are no "flaws" and all character traits are just as natural as the rest, simply because Free Will?


Free Will means there is no "Good and Evil". So whatever a God does, is Absolute. Beyond "good or evil". Whether that is bashing a Poster's Union simply because you're a junky stoner wimp who is jealous of my enormous avatar and good standing in the community, or giant social rights....there is neither good nor evil in any acts.

Something is just something. There's no tags on it, that go "good" or "evil". Stupid Gods ignore their own divinity by worshiping other gods, like "Good" or "Evil"...which are IMAGINARY GODS

True Gods who worship themselves, instead of imaginary gods, become aware of their Divinity, and awaken their Godliness. Etc. Etc. Much philosophy and the Enlightening

Basically: You are Stupid Gods or Fallen Gods if you worship imaginary gods like "good" or "evil". You are True Gods if you worship yourselves instead, or if you worship another God who is superior to you, or helps you evolve

It's as simple as that. Why did school train you, the masses, to complicate everything pointlessly? Or was it the Church who fornicated your minds to become worthless latrines of oozing cesspools of hate and bigotry?

Because I'm so much more tolerant than everyone else

[Vilatania]

"Naturally caused" catastrophes, within a setting featuring an omnipotent and omniscient creator deity, would be entirely that deity's fault.
As for, again, omnipotent and omniscient creator deities who just happen to sit by and watch as, dunno, the Nazis march millions of people to the gas chambers, guilty again for knowing it, being able to stop it, and refusing to do so.

What if we're ALL Gods, just some less aware than others?
For example the Mods are Gods in NationStates. Incompetent, corrupt, senile Gods, nontheless..

Do not speak of [Violet] in such a manner!!

[Bezkoshtovnya]

"Naturally caused" catastrophes, within a setting featuring an omnipotent and omniscient creator deity, would be entirely that deity's fault.
As for, again, omnipotent and omniscient creator deities who just happen to sit by and watch as, dunno, the Nazis march millions of people to the gas chambers, guilty again for knowing it, being able to stop it, and refusing to do so.

Some people believe God is fiction.

Others believe what you just uttered is fiction

Also, here is question no one seems to have asked before....


What if we're ALL Gods, just some less aware than others?
For example the Mods are Gods in NationStates. Incompetent, corrupt, senile Gods, nontheless..

How is one corrupt when doing a volunteer job that does not involve money or other gain?

[Twilight Imperium]

For example the Mods are Gods in NationStates. Incompetent, corrupt, senile Gods, nontheless..

Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.

[Vilatania]

Some people believe God is fiction.

Others believe what you just uttered is fiction

Also, here is question no one seems to have asked before....


What if we're ALL Gods, just some less aware than others?
For example the Mods are Gods in NationStates. Incompetent, corrupt, senile Gods, nontheless..

How is one corrupt when doing a volunteer job that does not involve money or other gain?

You need to look up the definition of corruption.

[San Jose Guayabal]

There are wars started because someone cut off an ear, someone liked to sit on a golden stool, a war to cut the most flags, a military confrontation because a lone pig crossed a border and an army warred its own comrades because they're all drunk. And the Football War between Honduras and El Salvador was aggravated because some country's team lost the football match. More retarded reasons to war other than religion.

Note Einstein's quote:

Well, I didn't wanted to raise this, but as Salvadoran, I really hate that my country is being involved on "stupidity", so I came here to clarify what really happened.

First: the football war was merely a muckracking thing to get relevance from sensationalistic media.

Second: the context of the war developed since thirty or even fourty years and the whole shebang exploded after Honduras did an agrarian reform (which involved land redistribution) and the Honduran government snatched the lands to almost 250,000 Salvadorans who lived in Honduras after the 1930's Economical collapse of El Salvador and had a legal migratory status on Honduras.

Third: after seeing how mobs of Honduran soldiers and peasants literally "robbed" the land to those 250,000 Salvadorans who travelled to Honduras just to satisfy the normal human need to improve his/her life conditions, the Salvadoran government decided to defend its citizens in Honduran lands, they tried to start a conversation about it but in July 14th of 1969, Honduras did an aerial attack to main cities like San Salvador, La Unión and San Miguel, but the question is. If you as president of El Salvador (or any nation) you see how your capital city and also important cities are being attacked when your nation didn't acted badly, how you would react? You won't see that place being attacked and laugh, just because you are safe with some bodyguards on a safe house complex, no, it's a matter of patriotism and humanistic principles to defend your nation and most important, your people, who saw how their almost half lifetime effort is being robbed by a law, it was natural to defend the nation, not soemthing stupid, considering that El Salvador tried to have a dialogue with the Honduran authorities.

Fourth: Salvadoran patriotism is not just based on football, for your information, the pride comes from the early thirties when almost all the nations of Central America suffered American intervention in almost everything, our pride is that we are the only nation in Central America that has not suffered an explicit intervention of United States in its territory, and not only that, the pride is that after our independence in 1821, we have been the best in Central America in almost everything, that role was lost during the Civil War of 1981-1992 by a dirty monk called Oscar Romero.

I invite you to try to collect enough information before writing fake and sensationalistic things from pseudo-sources.