NationStates

Trve wrote:

Parthenon wrote:

Voltairian Prospects wrote:I am curious as to what kind of CRAP you intend on spoon feeding your children... If by some freak chance you find/found someone to love you with that attitude.
More concerning, How many times did your parents have to hit you in the head to get you to think that way?
FYI... Your ancestors are more than likely not from America, as it hasn't been around that long.
My suggestion to you is to quit having such a biased opinion and appreciate the lives of others... or... you could go to therepy...

Because I value the lives of my fellow countrymen over those that would want to kill us I must have been beaten as a child? Is that really how the mind of a liberal operates now, claiming child abuse for opposing viewpoints?

[sadistic moment]
I would happily TORTURE a known terrorist if it could generate intelligence that would save american lives. Note the word torture, none of this water boarding nonsense. Something I devised a while back would be a terrorist to a treadmill made out of sandpaper, increase the speed every second they refuse to talk. It wouldn't be a very pretty site if someone refuses...
[/sadistic moment]

I think whats more disturbing then your skewed world view and lack of facts is the fact that you spent time thinking about 'fun' ways to commit warcrimes.

In a delightful historical irony, the inventors of some of the cruelest and most famous torture machines throughout history ended up being the first victims of them.

Something similar happened to me after helping to design and construct the Poo Cannon.

Trve wrote:I think whats more disturbing then your skewed world view and lack of facts is the fact that you spent time thinking about 'fun' ways to commit warcrimes.

It came to me in a moment of stupidity in which I let my knuckles brush the top of a belt sander while helping my kid brother work on a pinewood derby car for boyscouts. Didn't really take much thought to iron out the kinks in the idea.

Parthenon wrote:Because I value the lives of my fellow countrymen over those that would want to kill us I must have been beaten as a child? Is that really how the mind of a liberal operates now, claiming child abuse for opposing viewpoints?

His comment was poor, but I understand the reaction to a comment completely devoid of any empathy. However, you are entitled to your opinion so I won't belabor the point.

Parthenon wrote:[sadistic moment]
I would happily TORTURE a known terrorist if it could generate intelligence that would save american lives. Note the word torture, none of this water boarding nonsense. Something I devised a while back would be chaining a terrorist to a treadmill made out of sandpaper, increasing the speed every second they refuse to talk. It wouldn't be a very pretty site if someone refuses...
[/sadistic moment]

You see, this has been fairly thoroughly debunked. No one has ever obtained reliable information through torture, and most of the people took so long to torture that it's impossible to claim any lives were saved because of it. None of the anti-terrorist work that actually produced results had anything to do with information obtained through torture, and new informants are coming forward all the time to testify that it is not working. Mostly, torture was ordered in order to prove a connection between the Hussein government in Iraq and Al Qaeda that never existed. They did it to justify a political policy they'd already chosen, not to obtain new information they didn't already have.

People were tortured who had nothing to do with terrorism. Most of the ones were released were only granted their freedom after they signed an agreement promising never to reveal any of what happened to them, because the administration knew it would make them liable for criminal charges.

The Geneva Convention clearly spells out torture. The Bush administration decided to redefine torture for political reasons, but that doesn't make them immune to criminal prosecution for war crimes. If the Democrats ever grow a spine the Bush administration officials are in a lot of trouble. Otherwise they're forever barred from traveling outside the country, because all other signatories to the Geneva Convention will arrest them and hand them over to the Hague for trial.

my concern with not pursuing the title of this thread is the message it sends to future scoffers of anti-torture agreements. that they can get away with near total impunity to making this world a more brutal and dangerous place. as those so called war on terror policies have been doing ever since the big excuse for them.

Pretty positive it was Abdul Hakim Murad that revealed details about a Bojinka plot to crash 11 airliners into the Ocean after being tortured by authorities in the Philippines...

Parthenon wrote:Pretty positive it was Abdul Hakim Murad that revealed details about a Bojinka plot to crash 11 airliners into the Ocean after being tortured by authorities in the Philippines...

Okay, let's take a look at that claim. Source?

Treznor wrote:

Parthenon wrote:Pretty positive it was Abdul Hakim Murad that revealed details about a Bojinka plot to crash 11 airliners into the Ocean after being tortured by authorities in the Philippines...

Okay, let's take a look at that claim. Source?

http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclo ... kim_Murad/
transcripts of information gained
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fall/murad1.html
and a complete profile listing additional sources
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/ ... _murad.htm

The ends justify the means, hurt a few, save many. I see no issue with it.

Hans Van Stone wrote:The ends justify the means, hurt a few, save many. I see no issue with it.

How about the fact that the "many" never get "saved"? Since it has been proven time and time again that torture does not produce useable information and, thus, it doesn't save any lives at all, people who support torture are actually saying, "Hurt a few, get nothing but shits and giggles."

So, since to you the ends are the justification, and torture does not produce the ends of increased safety, is there any justification for it?

Robustian wrote:
It's real simple.

You have no idea what TORTURE is.

Our own military calls it torture.

The FBI refused to do it, because it's torture.

It's based on training for 'how to resist torture'.

We tried people for it, because it's illegal, because it's 'torture'.



Sorry - I'm confused... who has no idea what torture is?

Robustian wrote:Enemy combatants are people who are caught fighting...

No, enemy combatants are people found in or near a conflict zone.

They may or not be fighting. They may or may not be offering material or other aid. They may just be there.

Hans Van Stone wrote:The ends justify the means, hurt a few, save many. I see no issue with it.

Two problems.

One: I don't believe you'd apply it evenly. If, for example, it was YOU that was being volunteered as the one that needed waterboarding, to save many, I think you'd see it differently.

Two: hurting a few to save many is only any use if it saves many, and it's the right few.


If you torture some random dude, and he makes up random stuff - it's unlikely that 'intelligence' will save many. Or any. Just for example.

What can anyone do about it, besides complaining? Nothing, not even Obama, not even the EU, no one. I live in a country where impunity is as common as taking a shower, or eating, i'm not a socialist (I would define myself as someone who tries to get the best of any political ideal) but it's clearly that as history is made by the winner, so is law, they can break the law and they won't get punished as simple as that.

What needs to be done is bring the Bush administration to and international court, where the USA goverment will not have any influence and let the people of the world judge these monsters.

Parthenon wrote:

Voltairian Prospects wrote:I am curious as to what kind of CRAP you intend on spoon feeding your children... If by some freak chance you find/found someone to love you with that attitude.
More concerning, How many times did your parents have to hit you in the head to get you to think that way?
FYI... Your ancestors are more than likely not from America, as it hasn't been around that long.
My suggestion to you is to quit having such a biased opinion and appreciate the lives of others... or... you could go to therepy...

Because I value the lives of my fellow countrymen over those that would want to kill us I must have been beaten as a child? Is that really how the mind of a liberal operates now, claiming child abuse for opposing viewpoints?

[sadistic moment]
I would happily TORTURE a known terrorist if it could generate intelligence that would save american lives. Note the word torture, none of this water boarding nonsense. Something I devised a while back would be chaining a terrorist to a treadmill made out of sandpaper, increasing the speed every second they refuse to talk. It wouldn't be a very pretty site if someone refuses...
[/sadistic moment]

So, I hold a citizenship in two countries. Is my worth as a human being the more valuable of the two? The less valuable? The average? The sum? The one in which I live?

If I move to the other country in which I am a citizen, is that government acting immorally if it uses its resources for my benefit (and the benefit of others in the country) rather than the benefit of those living in the U.S., given that it's helping less valuable people help rather than the Ubermensch from the States?

Parthenon wrote:http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Abdul_Hakim_Murad/
transcripts of information gained
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fall/murad1.html
and a complete profile listing additional sources
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/ ... _murad.htm

So, umm, 67 days of torture didn't work at all.

An agent pretending to be Mossad telling him that they would send him to Israel did.

Trve wrote:

Parthenon wrote:Enhanced Interrogation Techniques are not torture.

See, all this time I was taught we executed Japanese officers for war crimes because of torture, when in reality I guess we just executed them for 'Enhanced Interrogation Techniques'.


Please share.

Welcome back, man.

Iron Chariots wrote:

Parthenon wrote:

Voltairian Prospects wrote:I am curious as to what kind of CRAP you intend on spoon feeding your children... If by some freak chance you find/found someone to love you with that attitude.
More concerning, How many times did your parents have to hit you in the head to get you to think that way?
FYI... Your ancestors are more than likely not from America, as it hasn't been around that long.
My suggestion to you is to quit having such a biased opinion and appreciate the lives of others... or... you could go to therepy...

Because I value the lives of my fellow countrymen over those that would want to kill us I must have been beaten as a child? Is that really how the mind of a liberal operates now, claiming child abuse for opposing viewpoints?

[sadistic moment]
I would happily TORTURE a known terrorist if it could generate intelligence that would save american lives. Note the word torture, none of this water boarding nonsense. Something I devised a while back would be chaining a terrorist to a treadmill made out of sandpaper, increasing the speed every second they refuse to talk. It wouldn't be a very pretty site if someone refuses...
[/sadistic moment]

So, I hold a citizenship in two countries. Is my worth as a human being the more valuable of the two? The less valuable? The average? The sum? The one in which I live?

If I move to the other country in which I am a citizen, is that government acting immorally if it uses its resources for my benefit (and the benefit of others in the country) rather than the benefit of those living in the U.S., given that it's helping less valuable people help rather than the Ubermensch from the States?

I myself have a duel citizenship as well. If I was to ever live in Italy, the nation I am also a citizen of, I wouldn't expect to have american resources spent on me and vice versa.

Xilcoatl wrote:What can anyone do about it, besides complaining? Nothing, not even Obama, not even the EU, no one. I live in a country where impunity is as common as taking a shower, or eating, i'm not a socialist (I would define myself as someone who tries to get the best of any political ideal) but it's clearly that as history is made by the winner, so is law, they can break the law and they won't get punished as simple as that.

What needs to be done is bring the Bush administration to and international court, where the USA goverment will not have any influence and let the people of the world judge these monsters.

This has been advocated...and ignored. Many of the folks who would be responsible for arresting and shipping the Bush administration off to the Hague are themselves accomplices, simply by doing nothing once they learned of it. Some may have actually been briefed and signed off on it. We don't know, and nothing short of a full accounting is going to answer that question.

We have criminals with smoking guns in their hands, but our leadership has chosen to do nothing. Because of fear? Blackmail? Bipartisanship? It could be any or all of the above. All we know is that the leadership within the US has failed us thus far, and with each passing day we lose hope that this great tragedy will be corrected.

Parthenon wrote:

Voltairian Prospects wrote:I am curious as to what kind of CRAP you intend on spoon feeding your children... If by some freak chance you find/found someone to love you with that attitude.
More concerning, How many times did your parents have to hit you in the head to get you to think that way?
FYI... Your ancestors are more than likely not from America, as it hasn't been around that long.
My suggestion to you is to quit having such a biased opinion and appreciate the lives of others... or... you could go to therepy...

Because I value the lives of my fellow countrymen over those that would want to kill us I must have been beaten as a child? Is that really how the mind of a liberal operates now, claiming child abuse for opposing viewpoints?

[sadistic moment]
I would happily TORTURE a known terrorist if it could generate intelligence that would save american lives. Note the word torture, none of this water boarding nonsense. Something I devised a while back would be chaining a terrorist to a treadmill made out of sandpaper, increasing the speed every second they refuse to talk. It wouldn't be a very pretty site if someone refuses...
[/sadistic moment]

well maybe then you should shut the frig up!


because soon everybody will want to kill YOU with that attitude.

Hans Van Stone wrote:The ends justify the means, hurt a few, save many. I see no issue with it.

Then dont bitch when some poor american soldier gets beheaded then.

you cannot say thats different its the same sorta shit.

Hans Van Stone wrote:The ends justify the means, hurt a few, save many. I see no issue with it.

Terrorists hold a similar outlook. Sacrifice themselves and civilians for the furtherance of their cause. But of course, its different when America does it because IT JUST IS, WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM?!

Ifreann wrote:

Hans Van Stone wrote:The ends justify the means, hurt a few, save many. I see no issue with it.

Terrorists hold a similar outlook. Sacrifice themselves and civilians for the furtherance of their cause. But of course, its different when America does it because IT JUST IS, WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM?!

It was Glenn Greenwald who first pointed out the Manichean mindset of the Bush administration. No matter what they do the good guys can never do anything bad because they're the good guys. The bad guys can never do anything good because they're the bad guys.

It's summarized nicely here

Non Aligned States wrote:

Muravyets wrote:I disagree. I think what lets them get away with it is that a big enough chunk of the world are bone-ass lazy. Hence my remark in my earlier post about how the only thing we lack just happens to be the most important thing in the whole issue -- the will to enforce the law.

How do you differentiate between bone-ass lazy and those who think it's a good thing so they don't do anything about it anyway?

Duh. Those who say they think torture is good and we should do more of it are not failing to call for prosecutions because they are too bone-ass lazy to enforce the law. Clearly, they prefer to break the law. Couldn't you spot that difference for yourself?

Grave_n_idle wrote:

Robustian wrote:Enemy combatants are people who are caught fighting...

No, enemy combatants are people found in or near a conflict zone.

They may or not be fighting. They may or may not be offering material or other aid. They may just be there.

Not exactly. Jose Padillo was nowhere near a conflict zone, yet he was, I think, the first "enemy combatant." And now he gets to sue over it.

So, yeah, being connected to actual fighting is NOT a prerequisite to being declared an "enemy combatant." That's because "enemy combatant" is bullshit, and unlike lies, bullshit does not require internal consistency.

Let's start with those damned psychologists.
http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/imag ... orture.bmp

And then let's do this to Cheney
http://media.photobucket.com/image/tort ... n_iraq.jpg