AMERICA: A Christian Nation?

[Catholic Federalized States]

Founded by Christians, molded by Christians on Christian values.

Result = Christian.

[The Creepoc Infinite]

Founded by Christians, molded by Christians on Christian values.

Result = Christian.

Wrong sir.
If you're speaking of the founding fathers, they were not all Christians, in fact, many of them were deists.
And ALL of them were secularists.
the treaty of tripoli specifically states we are not a Christian nation.
And establishment clause of the first amendment shows we are a secular nation.
If we were a Christian nation, it would clearly say so in the constitution, but it doesn't.

Many religious folk at the time of the consititution were actually opposed to it because the document did not establish Christianity as the state religion. (Simplest way I can explain it)

[Ammar]

I thought we worshiped the almighty Exodia in America. Oh wait, that's Egypt.

[Reddogkeno101]

America is a Christian nation. The Founding Fathers may have been secularists but the power belongs to the people! The American people are Christians! The Marxists are just fabricating the lies to push for an anti-religious agenda. Sooner or later, our Judeo-Christian roots will be lost.

When refering to you, I've got to say, you belong there as with your ideas.

[The Archregimancy]

Founded by Christians, molded by Christians on Christian values.

Result = Christian.

Wrong sir.
If you're speaking of the founding fathers, they were not all Christians, in fact, many of them were deists.
And ALL of them were secularists.

As pointed out to you before, this is not strictly true.

It's clear that the overwhelming majority of 'founding fathers' - however we define that term - were in favour of a secular Federal government with clear separation of church and state, something which is clearly evident from the US Constitution and (as you correctly point out) the Treaty of Tripoli.

But this is not necessarily strictly true at the state level; as pointed out previously, at least two states (Connecticut and Massachusetts) maintained an established state religion into the 19th century, strongly indicating that application of strict secularism across early republican government institutions wasn't necessarily universal .

It's certainly true that the United States was not founded as a Christian nation - that the early United States indeed explicitly denied being founded as a Christian nation in relevant early documents - but I would be extremely cautious about making sweeping generalisations about the beliefs of the 'founding fathers', especially given what a nebulous and hard to define term that is.

You should also be much more careful to define what you mean by 'secularism' in the late 18th- to early 19th-century context; how does it relate, for example, to Thomas Jefferson's regular attendance at the weekly Sunday church services held in the US Capitol (which were only discontinued in the 1860s)?

Stating that 'many were deists, and the overwhelming majority were secularists', and then using the Treaty of Tripoli to bolster that point is entirely fair and correct. Making a sweeping and unqualified generalisation about the same group is a much, much trickier proposition.

[New Altman]

We are a tolerant, secular nation....comprised mostly of Christians using Christian values, morals and traditions.

We all want to be good people and be in accordance with the Church. The problem here is that most of us don't acknowledge we can be sinners. All of us sin, every day. It is part of the human condition and people always fall short of the virtues or teachings Christianity teaches.

Very true. We all are sinners. We are all taught to love thy neighbor, regardless of their beliefs or actions, to love them as we love ourselves. We are not to judge as that is the Lords task. Being Christian is hard. The good thing is we are not held to being perfect, if we stray, we are forgiven. We have a compassionate God.

[The Creepoc Infinite]

Wrong sir.
If you're speaking of the founding fathers, they were not all Christians, in fact, many of them were deists.
And ALL of them were secularists.

As pointed out to you before, this is not strictly true.

It's clear that the overwhelming majority of 'founding fathers' - however we define that term - were in favour of a secular Federal government with clear separation of church and state, something which is clearly evident from the US Constitution and (as you correctly point out) the Treaty of Tripoli.

But this is not necessarily strictly true at the state level; as pointed out previously, at least two states (Connecticut and Massachusetts) maintained an established state religion into the 19th century, strongly indicating that application of strict secularism across early republican government institutions wasn't necessarily universal .

It's certainly true that the United States was not founded as a Christian nation - that the early United States indeed explicitly denied being founded as a Christian nation in relevant early documents - but I would be extremely cautious about making sweeping generalisations about the beliefs of the 'founding fathers', especially given what a nebulous and hard to define term that is.

You should also be much more careful to define what you mean by 'secularism' in the late 18th- to early 19th-century context; how does it relate, for example, to Thomas Jefferson's regular attendance at the weekly Sunday church services held in the US Capitol (which were only discontinued in the 1860s)?

Stating that 'many were deists, and the overwhelming majority were secularists', and then using the Treaty of Tripoli to bolster that point is entirely fair and correct. Making a sweeping and unqualified generalisation about the same group is a much, much trickier proposition.

Thanks for the clarification, couldn't have said it better myself.

I guess I just used the wrong words, because I wasn't entirely sure that they were all secularists, but I decided against saying "overwhelming majority" because first off, I didn't consider the state level, and second, I thought it didn't make sense for anyone to be against secularism.

Oh well
I did my best.

[Norstal]

No because it's still a walking stick even if you used it as a club. If I used a bow to shoot someone, does that bow become a gun? Nonsense. What do you call in your world then? A "shooter?"

If you rig the bow to shoot bullets using gas compression of exploding gunpowder, it would be fair to call it a gun.

You don't think guns can't shoot arrows?

Oh I see now. In your world, guns are called bows.

I mean really, where do we stop? Do we call knives swords? Or swords knives? Cars truck? Why do you insist on calling a walking stick a club just because you can club someone with it? Just because it has the word "club" in it?

It's still a walking stick.

Please define "walking stick".

Define "club." If you're going to do this, it's only fair you start first.

[Othelos]

Despite what this graph says, no it isn't. This founders didn't want the government to be religious, nor do most people now. Christianity as a facet of part of our culture does not make us a Christian nation, anymore than we are a 'conservative', 'liberal', or a 'white' nation.

[Othelos]

Founded by Christians, molded by Christians on Christian values.

Result = Christian.

Founded by whites, molded by whites with white 'values'.

Result = white.

[New Jordslag]

Founded by Christians, molded by Christians on Christian values.

Result = Christian.

Founded by whites, molded by whites with white 'values'.

Result = white.

Founded by Tea-haters, molded by Tea-haters with Tea-hating values.

Result = Tea-Hating.

Because everybody knows America hates Tea. Why else would we have thrown out all that tea on that ship in Boston? Obviously because the Tea was part of some Anti-American Eurocommie Islamo-Fascist Kenyan Terrorist plot. Nevermind the fact that none of those existed at the time, other than Islam.

[Catholic Federalized States]

(Image)

Despite what this graph says, no it isn't. This founders didn't want the government to be religious, nor do most people now. Christianity as a facet of part of our culture does not make us a Christian nation, anymore than we are a 'conservative', 'liberal', or a 'white' nation.

I love the shocking differences in Italy, South Africa, Russia and Poland.



Knew your graph was wrong because of how low Poland and Russie were on the chart.

[Chaunceys]

America is a Christian nation. The Founding Fathers may have been secularists but the power belongs to the people! The American people are Christians! The Marxists are just fabricating the lies to push for an anti-religious agenda. Sooner or later, our Judeo-Christian roots will be lost.

"The American people are Christians!"
Uhhh, i'm an Atheist so how does that work?

[Distruzio]

Founded by Christians, molded by Christians on Christian values.

Result = Christian.

Founded by whites, molded by whites with white 'values'.

Result = white.

Founded by slavers. Molded by slavers.

Result.... oh...

[New Jordslag]

(Image)

Despite what this graph says, no it isn't. This founders didn't want the government to be religious, nor do most people now. Christianity as a facet of part of our culture does not make us a Christian nation, anymore than we are a 'conservative', 'liberal', or a 'white' nation.

I love the shocking differences in Italy, South Africa, Russia and Poland.



Knew your graph was wrong because of how low Poland and Russie were on the chart.

If his graph is wrong, that proves the point that the US isn't a Christian nation, considering that his chart is about how the US is an exception among wealthy nations for being Ultra-Religious.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The person is the creator of [the idea of] the walking stick, the other person is the creator of [the idea of] the club. If you subscribe to subjective idealism, then there is no distinction between creating an idea and creating a thing. Making a rosary out of a chair is same process as making a club out of walking stick, because "walking stick" is simply the idea of a walking stick, and "club" is simply an idea of a club. You'd have to contend that some ideas are less real than other ideas, but without any meta-idea reality that we can reference as yardstick to gauge the realness of an idea, you have no precedent to due this.

See, the problem is that language, how we communicate, doesn't make it such.

What your logic fails to grasp, and keeps on failing to grasp, is that language works by us defining what things are. A walking stick is a walking stick. If you call it a walking stick, and you created it, then your definition is authoritative as to what that thing is because you created the thing. Making a rosary out of a chair is not the same process as making a club out of a walking stick. The reason being that in one you are using something for a purpose which was not intended, in the other you are carving something out of something else.

Deism is defined as the belief in a non-interventionist deity, that's what they are. They are not atheists because they believe in a deity. Atheism is the lack of belief and rejection of any deities, not simply the belief in a non-interventionist deity. Language defines it as such, we have called it such. For you to come here and strut around going "but they are just atheists in drag!" completely and utterly makes no fucking sense given even atheists don't accept deists as atheists.

[Othelos]

(Image)

Despite what this graph says, no it isn't. This founders didn't want the government to be religious, nor do most people now. Christianity as a facet of part of our culture does not make us a Christian nation, anymore than we are a 'conservative', 'liberal', or a 'white' nation.

I love the shocking differences in Italy, South Africa, Russia and Poland.



Knew your graph was wrong because of how low Poland and Russie were on the chart.

The other countries matter in aggregate, but I don't really care how religious specifically Poland or russia are, the topic is about the US, and the point of the graph was to show that the US is an outlier.

[Wallenburg]

Absolutely not. Just because there is a Christian majority does not mean we should label our country Christian.

[Distruzio]

Absolutely not. Just because there is a Christian majority does not mean we should label our country Christian.

Why not?

[New Jordslag]

Absolutely not. Just because there is a Christian majority does not mean we should label our country Christian.

I couldn't have said it better. Being founded and molded by Christians does not necessarily make one a Christian Nation. We have millions upon millions of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Janes, Scientologists, Jews, Baha'is, Zoroastrians, among others. There are so many faiths in America that it would be difficult to say it belongs to any one faith.

[The Creepoc Infinite]

Absolutely not. Just because there is a Christian majority does not mean we should label our country Christian.

Why not?

To protect the rights of those who are not Christians.

[Distruzio]

Why not?

To protect the rights of those who are not Christians.

Does referring to ourselves as a Christian nation necessarily jeopardize the rights of non Christians? How so?

[Wallenburg]

To protect the rights of those who are not Christians.

Does referring to ourselves as a Christian nation necessarily jeopardize the rights of non Christians? How so?

It does when you tie religion and country together, and when patriotism among the majority is already
.
I don't want fascists exterminating religious minorities for being "unpatriotic".

[The Creepoc Infinite]

To protect the rights of those who are not Christians.

Does referring to ourselves as a Christian nation necessarily jeopardize the rights of non Christians? How so?

Well, the idea of a Christian theocracy is not a good one.
Saying we are a Christian nation implies that we are a theocracy and we support the ideas of Christianity above others.

It also discriminates against non-Christians.
For the same reason "under god" is offensive to non-Christians.

But the main reason is that calling ourselves a Christian nation simply isn't true.
It would be unconstitutional to do so any way.

[Distruzio]

Does referring to ourselves as a Christian nation necessarily jeopardize the rights of non Christians? How so?

Well, the idea of a Christian theocracy is not a good one.
Saying we are a Christian nation implies that we are a theocracy and we support the ideas of Christianity above others.

It also discriminates against non-Christians.
For the same reason "under god" is offensive to non-Christians.

But the main reason is that calling ourselves a Christian nation simply isn't true.
It would be unconstitutional to do so any way.

... perhaps its the cynic in me but since when is the Constitution a barrier to the government acting in its interests?

Of course, i imply that identifying ourselves as a Christian nation is in the governments interests... for fun.