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Lithuania to reintroduce conscription

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Do you support the reintroduction of conscription in Lithuania?

Yes, I support the reintroduction of conscription in Lithuania
128
54%
No, I don't support the reintroduction of conscription in Lithuania
109
46%
 
Total votes : 237

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:22 pm

Lytenburgh wrote:For all of you screaming "NATO STRONK!" I have a little somehting penned by the "Bloomberg":

NATO's Response to Putin's Odd War Games Won't Be Fast

(Bloomberg) -- As the Kremlin’s warplanes probe the edges of NATO airspace, the alliance says its forces are ready if the Russians come. Political leaders will need a little longer to issue the marching orders...

Who will order the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to strike back is less clear. The 28 governments in the U.S.-led alliance will all want a say, potentially slowing the deployment of a 5,000-man rapid-reaction force being set up to defend eastern Europe.

NATO’s commander “does not have peacetime operational control and would have to wait for allied governments to make a decision,” said John R. Deni, a professor at the U.S. Army War College’s Strategic Studies Institute in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. The concern is “something less than a very clear attack, an obvious assault, tanks crossing the border. That would require time for the alliance to figure out what’s going to happen. Depending on the nature of the crisis, that delay could be substantial...”

... Most of the 75,000 U.S. soldiers still in Europe are stationed in the west and the south -- far from the alliance’s potential eastern flashpoints.

Real Danger

U.K. Defence Secretary Michael Fallon warned Feb. 18 of a “real and present danger” of undercover operations against the Baltics, the Telegraph newspaper reported. Latvia’s defense minister, Raimonds Vejonis, said while that probability is “very low,” Russia’s leaders “are quite unpredictable and we have to be ready to react to different scenarios.”

Dedicated by its founding treaty in 1949 to countering an “armed attack,” NATO is poorly equipped to fend off an invasion that doesn’t look like one. Military men openly wonder whether their political bosses would be caught napping. Speaking at Royal United Services Institute in London on Feb. 20, U.K. General Adrian Bradshaw, the alliance’s deputy supreme commander, said an “ambiguous” attack would make “collective decisions relating to the appropriate responses more difficult.” ...

Reaction Force

After years of American pressure on Europe to boost defense spending and do more for its security, European governments agreed in Wales to field the bulk of a rapid-reaction force that could send its first units to the front lines within 48 hours, complete the deployment within a week and eventually grow to 30,000 troops.

An interim force made up of German, Dutch and Norwegian troops force is in training. As of 2016, leadership of the brigade-size land force will rotate among Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland and Spain. Backed by air, sea and special operations units, its capability will be gradually increased until reaching full readiness in 2017.

What happens if deterrence fails remains to be worked out.In the first hours of a conflict, the democratic notion that war is too important to be left to generals could put NATO at a tactical disadvantage. Ioan Mircea Pascu, a former Romanian defense minister now in the European Parliament, predicts that “real serious decisions would have to be taken, and will be taken, as they were in the EU on the sanctions.” ...

NATO’s militaries are run from a headquarters in southern Belgium, traditionally under the command of an American officer, currently U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove. As defense ministers debated alliance reinforcements on Feb. 5 in Brussels, a senior official told reporters that Breedlove’s forces will be under political control “at all times.”

What that means in practice will be discussed by defense ministers in June. One option is to give the military command the peacetime right to call snap exercises of the readiness force. Emergency powers are trickier, especially in case of a “hybrid” infiltration.

It makes no sense to have a rapidly deployable brigade if you can’t take political decisions on a commensurate timeline,” U.S. Ambassador to NATO Douglas Lute said Feb. 11 on a media conference call. “This too is an element of the readiness action plan which has not yet been decided.”


Yeah, it took the NATO nations a few years to respond to what Germany was up to in the 30's. Properly slow. The US was really late to that one.

Still, look what happened to Germany in the end....

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:22 pm

Valaran wrote:To be honest, this sounds like someone's a little upset that other post Soviet states suddenly don't like the prospect of Russian agression. I wonder what could have brought that on? :roll:


Oh yes! We, Russians, are so "ebul"! We just dream to invade poor innocent Baltic countries! [nods]

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:23 pm

Lytenburgh wrote:
Little Sealand wrote:Every soldier counts,

But the fact that I've been debating this for an hour makes me question my sanity.

But you seem to be looking at a point from where it doesn't make sense because no matter what you do, Russia would steamroll you in real life and there no use even trying?


:clap:

Yes.

How about, given the fact that no one is threatening to invade Lithuania, just admit that conscription here would be silly?


How are you not understanding the reason they reintroduced conscription is because of Russia? I get you're an ultranationalist and all, but it's plainly obvious Russia's the reason why Lithuania decided to do this.
Last edited by Washington Resistance Army on Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:25 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Yeah, it took the NATO nations a few years to respond to what Germany was up to in the 30's...


Sorry, you lost me here.

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Dr Freud
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Postby Dr Freud » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:26 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Dr Freud wrote:
There's no requirement that says a local majority needs to exist for an uprising to take place.

Without one though, I would think such an uprising would fizzle out pretty quickly.


Depends who is available to oppose it, doesn't it? If the minority who are rebelling happen to have tanks and SAM systems and the majority don't, the opinions of the majority aren't really going to matter a whole lot.

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Valaran
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Postby Valaran » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:26 pm

Lytenburgh wrote:
Valaran wrote:To be honest, this sounds like someone's a little upset that other post Soviet states suddenly don't like the prospect of Russian agression. I wonder what could have brought that on? :roll:


Oh yes! We, Russians, are so "ebul"! We just dream to invade poor innocent Baltic countries! [nods]


To quote your own source:

Fartsniffage wrote:
Lytenburgh wrote:For all of you screaming "NATO STRONK!" I have a little somehting penned by the "Bloomberg":


NATO’s commander “does not have peacetime operational control and would have to wait for allied governments to make a decision,” said John R. Deni, a professor at the U.S. Army War College’s Strategic Studies Institute in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. The concern is “something less than a very clear attack, an obvious assault, tanks crossing the border. That would require time for the alliance to figure out what’s going to happen. Depending on the nature of the crisis, that delay could be substantial...”

... Most of the 75,000 U.S. soldiers still in Europe are stationed in the west and the south -- far from the alliance’s potential eastern flashpoints.

. Latvia’s defense minister, Raimonds Vejonis, said while that probability is “very low,” Russia’s leaders “are quite unpredictable and we have to be ready to react to different scenarios.”


In light of an agressive neighbour which doesn't much care for notions like 'national sovereignity', having a few symbolic gestures and better preparations could come in handy.
I used to run an alliance, and a region. Not that it matters now.
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Valaran wrote:To be fair though.... I was judging on coolness factor, the most important criteria in any war.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:27 pm

Lytenburgh wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Yeah, it took the NATO nations a few years to respond to what Germany was up to in the 30's...


Sorry, you lost me here.


It's pretty simple. The nations that are part of NATO were still nations before NATO existed.

I was comparing the way Russia today is behaving to the way Germany was behaving in the 30's.

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:28 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Lytenburgh wrote:
:clap:

Yes.

How about, given the fact that no one is threatening to invade Lithuania, just admit that conscription here would be silly?


How are you not understanding the reason they reintroduced conscription is because of Russia? I get you're an ultranationalist and all, but it's plainly obvious Russia's the reason why Lithuania decided to do this.

That is his point, because that is unreasonable. Russia isn't going to invade Lithuania. The only place they could do it from is Kaliningrad Special Region, which doesn't have enough forces to occupy the whole country.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:29 pm

Dr Freud wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Without one though, I would think such an uprising would fizzle out pretty quickly.


Depends who is available to oppose it, doesn't it? If the minority who are rebelling happen to have tanks and SAM systems and the majority don't, the opinions of the majority aren't really going to matter a whole lot.

The minority would have to get that, then, wouldn't they?
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.

Eastern Orthodox Catechumen. Religious communitarian with Sorelian, Marxist, and Traditionalist influences. Sympathies toward Sunni Islam. All flags/avatars are chosen for aesthetic or humor purposes only
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:30 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
How are you not understanding the reason they reintroduced conscription is because of Russia? I get you're an ultranationalist and all, but it's plainly obvious Russia's the reason why Lithuania decided to do this.

That is his point, because that is unreasonable. Russia isn't going to invade Lithuania. The only place they could do it from is Kaliningrad Special Region, which doesn't have enough forces to occupy the whole country.


And I'm sure no one thought Russia was going to invade Ukraine and subsequently prolong fighting in another part of the country. Sure Russia might not invade Lithuania, but if their government wants to take steps that makes them feel more secure from Russia's stupidity I would hardly call that unreasonable.
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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:30 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
How are you not understanding the reason they reintroduced conscription is because of Russia? I get you're an ultranationalist and all, but it's plainly obvious Russia's the reason why Lithuania decided to do this.


1) I'm not "an ultranationalist and all". Othervise, can you prove it?

2) Russia is pretext - not the reason. If you remember that "Simpsosns" episode about Apu's taking a test to become the US citizen it begane with Mayor Qimby introducing "A bear patrol" - which is as effective as a random stone, says Lisa, only consts your tax money.
Last edited by Lytenburgh on Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:31 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:That is his point, because that is unreasonable. Russia isn't going to invade Lithuania. The only place they could do it from is Kaliningrad Special Region, which doesn't have enough forces to occupy the whole country.


And I'm sure no one thought Russia was going to invade Ukraine and subsequently prolong fighting in another part of the country. Sure Russia might not invade Lithuania, but if their government wants to take steps that makes them feel more secure from Russia's stupidity I would hardly call that unreasonable.

The difference in the Ukraine being that 1) Russia only attacked one part of the country, and 2) had the military presence to do so. The only place Russia borders Lithuania is Kaliningrad Oblast, which simply cannot support such a military operation.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.

Eastern Orthodox Catechumen. Religious communitarian with Sorelian, Marxist, and Traditionalist influences. Sympathies toward Sunni Islam. All flags/avatars are chosen for aesthetic or humor purposes only
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:32 pm

Valaran wrote:
In light of an agressive neighbour which doesn't much care for notions like 'national sovereignity', having a few symbolic gestures and better preparations could come in handy.


Yeah, totally random actions done by Russia! Really!

Whyle NATO's newst members reaction looks more like "Screw you and if you say saomething I GONNA TELL MY MAAAAAAM!"
Last edited by Lytenburgh on Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dr Freud
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Postby Dr Freud » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:32 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Dr Freud wrote:
Depends who is available to oppose it, doesn't it? If the minority who are rebelling happen to have tanks and SAM systems and the majority don't, the opinions of the majority aren't really going to matter a whole lot.

The minority would have to get that, then, wouldn't they?


Of course. And as we've seen in Donbas, tanks and SAM systems have a tendency to materialise out of thin air sometimes, which may be a concern to the Lithuanian government.

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:33 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
It's pretty simple. The nations that are part of NATO were still nations before NATO existed.

I was comparing the way Russia today is behaving to the way Germany was behaving in the 30's.


Gee! What a "NATO civil war" was this "Hundred Years war"! Becasue, really, it's all the same, right?

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Argentarino
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Postby Argentarino » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:34 pm

Lytenburgh wrote:
Steamtopia wrote:Russia, as I mentioned.


Have you seen the map? Russia is hardly a "neghbor" for Lithuania.

And what about "invading countries left and right"? Russia for the last 20 years had more peaceful and non-interventional foreign policy then the US.

Or, what - you want to tell us about all those countless and totally innocent countries that Russia "invaded left in right"?

1. Ukraine (by annexing Crimea and its involvement in the Donbass region)
2. Georgia in 2008
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:34 pm

Dr Freud wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:The minority would have to get that, then, wouldn't they?


Of course. And as we've seen in Donbas, tanks and SAM systems have a tendency to materialise out of thin air sometimes, which may be a concern to the Lithuanian government.

Again, there, Russia can actually supply those things. All of the Russian-minority and majority areas of Lithuania are nowhere where Russia could give them the goods.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.

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An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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US Army 1st Infantry Division
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Postby US Army 1st Infantry Division » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:34 pm

Another country comes to their senses, keep up the good work Lithuania!

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:35 pm

Lytenburgh wrote:1) I'm not "an ultranationalist and all".

Right, and I'm the Supreme Grand Master of the Illuminati :lol2:

Lytenburgh wrote:2) Russia is pretext - not the reason. If you remember that "Simpsosns" episode about Apu's taking a test to become the US citizen it begane with Mayor Qimby introducing "A bear patrol" - which is as effective as a random stone, says Lisa, only consts your tax money.


I don't watch the Simpsons, so no I don't but I think I get what you're trying to say. Back to what I said though, if their government feels reintroducing conscription will make them more secure from aggression that's their choice. It's hardy an unreasonable position with how Russia has been acting.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:35 pm

Argentarino wrote:
Lytenburgh wrote:
Have you seen the map? Russia is hardly a "neghbor" for Lithuania.

And what about "invading countries left and right"? Russia for the last 20 years had more peaceful and non-interventional foreign policy then the US.

Or, what - you want to tell us about all those countless and totally innocent countries that Russia "invaded left in right"?

1. Ukraine (by annexing Crimea and its involvement in the Donbass region)
2. Georgia in 2008

2) Georgia invaded a de-facto independent state with peacekeepers from both Russia and Georgia, killing those peacekeepers in the process and breaking the ceasefire that ended the South Ossetian War for independence.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.

Eastern Orthodox Catechumen. Religious communitarian with Sorelian, Marxist, and Traditionalist influences. Sympathies toward Sunni Islam. All flags/avatars are chosen for aesthetic or humor purposes only
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:36 pm

Argentarino wrote:1. Ukraine (by annexing Crimea and its involvement in the Donbass region)
2. Georgia in 2008


Oh, poor sweet Georgia! And why did Russia not forgave you massacring its peacekeepers?

And now, pay attention to the other part of my question and compare to the USA.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:37 pm

Lytenburgh wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
It's pretty simple. The nations that are part of NATO were still nations before NATO existed.

I was comparing the way Russia today is behaving to the way Germany was behaving in the 30's.


Gee! What a "NATO civil war" was this "Hundred Years war"! Becasue, really, it's all the same, right?


It was the second world war, as well you know. It took a bit of time for the good guys to get into gear and slap down Germany.

Thankfully, these days we would just be able to concentrate on one unpleasant government in the European sphere.

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:41 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Right, and I'm the Supreme Grand Master of the Illuminati :lol2:


I don't fucking care who you claim you are. Care to answer the whole phrase here? Like, you and others really like to calle me "ultranationalist" - care to answer for your words for once? Or You will just cover behind your supposedly "funny" jokes once again?

Washington Resistance Army wrote:I don't watch the Simpsons


...
...
...

Heresy!


Washington Resistance Army wrote: don't but I think I get what you're trying to say. Back to what I said though, if their government feels reintroducing conscription will make them more secure from aggression that's their choice. It's hardy an unreasonable position with how Russia has been acting.


The "reasonble postions" should, in theory, help their country - somehow. I don't see how it could help Lithuania. And you (and others) only keep telling "But-but-but... Russia!" as if it is self explanatory.

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:42 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
It was the second world war, as well you know. It took a bit of time for the good guys to get into gear and slap down Germany.

Thankfully, these days we would just be able to concentrate on one unpleasant government in the European sphere.


The Great Britain?

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Dr Freud
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Postby Dr Freud » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:43 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Dr Freud wrote:
Of course. And as we've seen in Donbas, tanks and SAM systems have a tendency to materialise out of thin air sometimes, which may be a concern to the Lithuanian government.

Again, there, Russia can actually supply those things. All of the Russian-minority and majority areas of Lithuania are nowhere where Russia could give them the goods.


Not all of them - Klaipeda is near the Russian border. And all the other risk areas are on the border with Belarus which is currently host to 1500 Russian military personnel.

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