Natural Born Citizen

[Page]

Obama was born in Hawaii. No one who vaccinates their children and doesn't think Sandy Hook was staged disputes that. But I am interested in the interpretation of who is qualified to be the President of the United States as per the current constitutional requirement.

It's been established that a person born on an American military base on foreign soil can be President, as McCain was. As far as I can tell, the easiest and most straightforward definition of a natural born citizen is "naturalized at the moment of birth." As in, anyone who is granted American citizenship solely because they were born is a natural born American citizen.

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

EDIT: In support of my argument, military bases are not US soil. Therefore this interpretation already has precedent: http://military.findlaw.com/family-empl ... broad.html

[Iwassoclose]

Nope.

[Alyakia]

honestly it's a bunch of bullshit and shouldn't be there anyway

[Murkwood]

honestly it's a bunch of bullshit and shouldn't be there anyway

Why? It makes perfect sense.

[Alyakia]

honestly it's a bunch of bullshit and shouldn't be there anyway

Why? It makes perfect sense.

why does it make perfect sense?

[Murkwood]

Why? It makes perfect sense.

why does it make perfect sense?

Citizenship is something that is to be given, not earned. If your parents were American, you should have nothing to earn.

[Alyakia]

why does it make perfect sense?

Citizenship is something that is to be given, not earned. If your parents were American, you should have nothing to earn.

are you sure we aren't actually talking about two different things?

[Murkwood]

Citizenship is something that is to be given, not earned. If your parents were American, you should have nothing to earn.

are you sure we aren't actually talking about two different things?

What are you talking about?

[Devvo Mate]

Citizenship is something that is to be given, not earned. If your parents were American, you should have nothing to earn.

You're completely missing the point. If someone is born to American parents in Toronto, the child is ineligible to be president. Is this fair?

[Murkwood]

Citizenship is something that is to be given, not earned. If your parents were American, you should have nothing to earn.

You're completely missing the point. If someone is born to American parents in Toronto, the child is ineligible to be president. Is this fair?

No. If your parents are American, you should be and are American.

[Alyakia]

are you sure we aren't actually talking about two different things?

What are you talking about?

you sound like you're talking about who is a citizen not who is eligible to be president based on when they became a citizen.

[Page]

Citizenship is something that is to be given, not earned. If your parents were American, you should have nothing to earn.

You're completely missing the point. If someone is born to American parents in Toronto, the child is ineligible to be president. Is this fair?

Well what I'm saying is that if such a case went to court, the court correctly interpreting the constitution would deem such person eligible. The constitution would not have to be amended for this to occur.

[Romalae]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

We have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. At birth seems like a pretty valid time.

Maybe it should be at 3 years old, because after that is usually when the first memories are formed?

The intention is clearly to limit the possible influence of foreign nations on the president.

Considering that it's the only office that has this requirement, I don't see a huge need for reform.

[Romalae]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

We have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. At birth seems like a pretty valid time.

Maybe it should be at 3 years old, because after that is usually when the first memories are formed?

I would find this reasonable and agreeable. I mean, I can totally understand that there'd be legitimate concerns about someone who spent a large amount of time living elsewhere during their formative years, but for someone who was too young to make any memories, it doesn't seem reasonable to exclude them from anything.

The intention is clearly to limit the possible influence of foreign nations on the president.

Considering that it's the only office that has this requirement, I don't see a huge need for reform.

True, it's not a huge deal. I was just putting that out there to foster some thought.

[Alyakia]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

We have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. At birth seems like a pretty valid time.

Maybe it should be at 3 years old, because after that is usually when the first memories are formed?

The intention is clearly to limit the possible influence of foreign nations on the president.

Considering that it's the only office that has this requirement, I don't see a huge need for reform.

do you remember when people panicked over catholics in the white house? they'll just listen to the pope! we'll be run by a foreign nation!

there have been plenty of nations with foreign born leaders i can think of and zero (0) of them have fallen to a foreign menace. it's almost like it's pretty silly actually.

[Draakonite]

We have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. At birth seems like a pretty valid time.

Maybe it should be at 3 years old, because after that is usually when the first memories are formed?

The intention is clearly to limit the possible influence of foreign nations on the president.

Considering that it's the only office that has this requirement, I don't see a huge need for reform.

do you remember when people panicked over catholics in the white house? they'll just listen to the pope! we'll be run by a foreign nation!

there have been plenty of nations with foreign born leaders i can think of and zero (0) of them have fallen to a foreign menace. it's almost like it's pretty silly actually.

Augustus III of Poland maybe?

[Cetacea]

So they still haven'tpassed the 61st Amendment?
but what about the Schwarzenegger Presidential Library?

[Arkiasis]

For a nation of immigrants it's goddamn hypocritical for that to be a requirement. What's so wrong with an immigrant being a President? Please, try and tell me without making yourself sound like a xenophobe. Hell, the immigrant earned their citizenship, they've worked harder to become a citizen than someone who just happened to plop out of a vagina in the right place.

[Napkiraly]

We have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. At birth seems like a pretty valid time.

Maybe it should be at 3 years old, because after that is usually when the first memories are formed?

The intention is clearly to limit the possible influence of foreign nations on the president.

Considering that it's the only office that has this requirement, I don't see a huge need for reform.

do you remember when people panicked over catholics in the white house? they'll just listen to the pope! we'll be run by a foreign nation!

there have been plenty of nations with foreign born leaders i can think of and zero (0) of them have fallen to a foreign menace. it's almost like it's pretty silly actually.

The current President of Estonia was born in Stockholm and spent most of his life in the USA. Last time I checked, Estonia has yet to apply to Swedish dominion or 51st statehood.

[Napkiraly]

For a nation of immigrants it's goddamn hypocritical for that to be a requirement. What's so wrong with an immigrant being a President? Please, try and tell me without making yourself sound like a xenophobe. Hell, the immigrant earned their citizenship, they've worked harder to become a citizen than someone who just happened to plop out of a vagina in the right place.

Considering how long it can take to become a citizen, that'd be one hell of a dedicated intelligence operation. Plus, there's nothing stopping a natural born American being influenced by a foreign state.

[Jaslandia]

do you remember when people panicked over catholics in the white house? they'll just listen to the pope! we'll be run by a foreign nation!

there have been plenty of nations with foreign born leaders i can think of and zero (0) of them have fallen to a foreign menace. it's almost like it's pretty silly actually.

Augustus III of Poland maybe?

That may not be the best example to prove your case. As the monarch of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was elected by a vote of the nobility since 1573, Poland-Lithuania had numerous foreign rulers, with Augustus III just happening to be a foreign monarch who wasn't competent. It's worth noting that one of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth's greatest kings, Stephen Báthory, was also a foreigner. The fact of the matter is, if Poland-Lithuania is any example, completely foreign leaders are not any more or less likely to be susceptible to foreign influence than native leaders.

In addition, Poland-Lithuania did not fall under Augustus III. The last King of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was actually a native Pole, Stanisław August Poniatowski. While Poland-Lithuania did decline under Augustus III, that decline had been gradually occurring for nearly a century by the time Augustus III came to the throne, and it would have been difficult for any leader to reverse it.

Sorry about my rant, but I just needed to clear up some things. Carry on.

[Middle Pacific]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

We have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. At birth seems like a pretty valid time.

Maybe it should be at 3 years old, because after that is usually when the first memories are formed?

The intention is clearly to limit the possible influence of foreign nations on the president.

Considering that it's the only office that has this requirement, I don't see a huge need for reform.

A rational and reasonable manner would be to constitutionally require that anyone running for President of the United States hold exclusively American citizenship and have resided in the country for a considerable period of time (14 is the current requirement, I believe).

America is a country built by immigrants, and well qualified immigrants, who came to this country lawfully, who are productive citizens, and took an oath of allegiance to the United States and earned their citizenship, should be allowed to run for President of the United States.

The natural born requirement (which mind you, wasn't absolute - the clause exempted citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution from the requirement, one of the reasons possibly being that several founding fathers could have been effected otherwise) was put in the Constitution with so little debate or discussion at the constitutional convention, which is the reason why there is so much argument over how it is to interpreted. It's supposed intended effect was to prevent European aristocrats from moving to America and seeking the Presidency. Either way, it is no longer necessary. It is as necessary as a fugitive slave clause in the 21st century.

Quite frankly, it is far more patriotic and makes more sense to support, all other things being equal, an immigrant who came to our country because he/she believes in everything we stand for, for President, rather than someone who happens to have had become a citizen by accident of birth and doesn't care about what the United States stand for.

[Dakini]

Yes! I can totally become president of the USA (if I bother living there for the requisite 20 years or whatever since I've never actually lived in that country).


Natural Born citizen for life, yo.

[Genivaria]

If you're good enough to be a citizen you're good enough to run for office.