Natural Born Citizen

[Ostroeuropa]

If you're good enough to be a citizen you're good enough to run for office.

This.

Let me re-phrase the question.

Should American Citizens be have a discriminatory ban from a public office in place based on their country of origin?
How about banning anyone born in the USA? Foreign-born only?
Would such a thing be constitutional if we just threw it in there and reversed this? Would it be conscionable?

So what if you are the majority? Isn't that kind of the point?

We can't let American-Born people be president. Without foreign influence, the country would surely devolve into an isolationist clusterfuck run by insular know-nothings.

See?
You can easily just make up a bullshit fearmongery reason to deny people their rights based on demographic status.
But it doesn't make it a good thing to do.

[Middle Pacific]

Yes! I can totally become president of the USA (if I bother living there for the requisite 20 years or whatever since I've never actually lived in that country).

Natural Born citizen for life, yo.

This perfectly encapsulates how convoluted this is.

Thankfully even right-wing Republicans such as Hatch see the need for reform (there was a proposal a few years back, but it didn't get out of the Senate Judiciary Committee in time).

As I've stated earlier in this thread, there are better ways to ensure loyalty to the United States. This method may have worked for the 18th century, it doesn't now.

The founders put in an amendment process for a reason, people. Let's use it.

[Draakonite]

If you're good enough to be a citizen you're good enough to run for office.

This.

Let me re-phrase the question.

Should American Citizens be have a discriminatory ban from a public office in place based on their country of origin?
How about banning anyone born in the USA? Foreign-born only?
Would such a thing be constitutional if we just threw it in there and reversed this? Would it be conscionable?

So what if you are the majority? Isn't that kind of the point?

We can't let American-Born people be president. Without foreign influence, the country would surely devolve into an isolationist clusterfuck run by insular know-nothings.

See?
You can easily just make up a bullshit fearmongery reason to deny people their rights based on demographic status.
But it doesn't make it a good thing to do.

Bad analogy, letting only non-americans be president is actually a sensible thing.

[Tekania]

Obama was born in Hawaii. No one who vaccinates their children and doesn't think Sandy Hook was staged disputes that. But I am interested in the interpretation of who is qualified to be the President of the United States as per the current constitutional requirement.

It's been established that a person born on an American military base on foreign soil can be President, as McCain was. As far as I can tell, the easiest and most straightforward definition of a natural born citizen is "naturalized at the moment of birth." As in, anyone who is granted American citizenship solely because they were born is a natural born American citizen.

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

EDIT: In support of my argument, military bases are not US soil. Therefore this interpretation already has precedent: http://military.findlaw.com/family-empl ... broad.html

Correct, "Natural Born Citizen" is anyone whose citizenship is conveyed at/in/upon birth by the law. It's Birthright citizen.... this is in differentiation from a NATURALIZED citizen, as in one who acquires citizenship later. Someone who is a citizen is either a natural born citizen or a naturalized citizen. Some odd birthers have attempted to create some weird category of citizen that is neither natural born nor naturalized but that is merely the unfounded conspiratorial ravings of lunatics.

[Ostroeuropa]

This.

Let me re-phrase the question.

Should American Citizens be have a discriminatory ban from a public office in place based on their country of origin?
How about banning anyone born in the USA? Foreign-born only?
Would such a thing be constitutional if we just threw it in there and reversed this? Would it be conscionable?

So what if you are the majority? Isn't that kind of the point?

We can't let American-Born people be president. Without foreign influence, the country would surely devolve into an isolationist clusterfuck run by insular know-nothings.

See?
You can easily just make up a bullshit fearmongery reason to deny people their rights based on demographic status.
But it doesn't make it a good thing to do.

Bad analogy, letting only non-americans be president is actually a sensible thing.

So is only letting foreigners be president.
See?
I can assert shit too.

[Wanderjar]

Obama was born in Hawaii. No one who vaccinates their children and doesn't think Sandy Hook was staged disputes that. But I am interested in the interpretation of who is qualified to be the President of the United States as per the current constitutional requirement.

It's been established that a person born on an American military base on foreign soil can be President, as McCain was. As far as I can tell, the easiest and most straightforward definition of a natural born citizen is "naturalized at the moment of birth." As in, anyone who is granted American citizenship solely because they were born is a natural born American citizen.

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

EDIT: In support of my argument, military bases are not US soil. Therefore this interpretation already has precedent: http://military.findlaw.com/family-empl ... broad.html

No. Both parents should have to be American born citizens, not naturalized.

[Tekania]

For a nation of immigrants it's goddamn hypocritical for that to be a requirement. What's so wrong with an immigrant being a President? Please, try and tell me without making yourself sound like a xenophobe. Hell, the immigrant earned their citizenship, they've worked harder to become a citizen than someone who just happened to plop out of a vagina in the right place.

The initial concept was to avoid an executive who would have dual loyalties..... at this point it is still in effect because it is constitutionally acquired and would require amending. I'm personally not adverse to such an amendment as I do not think the loyalty element is as much an issue of present as it was at the founding.

[Lydenburg]

I think the principle of jus soli is a ridiculous notion. Citizenship by descent, or jus sanguinis as proposed by the OP would seem more palatable for determining nationality.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

No. Both parents should have to be American born citizens, not naturalized.

Why?

What would that accomplish?

[Nebalon]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

Your father is not a true american. He has ties to Germany, and am american president needs to be unbiased and not influenced by any ties to any countries but America, because that's the country whose best interests they're looking out for.

It's simple really.

[Ostroeuropa]

No. Both parents should have to be American born citizens, not naturalized.

Why?

What would that accomplish?

Disenfranchising a bunch of brown people ofcourse.

[Draakonite]

Bad analogy, letting only non-americans be president is actually a sensible thing.

So is only letting foreigners be president.
See?
I can assert shit too.

Read again please, because you are kind of aggreeing with me ^^

[Lydenburg]

No. Both parents should have to be American born citizens, not naturalized.

Why?

What would that accomplish?

Switzerland.

[Ostroeuropa]

So is only letting foreigners be president.
See?
I can assert shit too.

Read again please, because you are kind of aggreeing with me ^^

Oh, sorry Brain derp.

[Constaniana]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

Your father is not a true american. He has ties to Germany, and am american president needs to be unbiased and not influenced by any ties to any countries but America, because that's the country whose best interests they're looking out for.

It's simple really.

You'd have a hard time finding an American that brags about their ties to some country, even if they've never been to it. Case in point: plastic paddies, Jersey Italians, etcetera.
Personally I think the natural-born citizen was something some butthead threw into the Constitution to troll Alexander Hamilton.

[Middle Pacific]

Your father is not a true american. He has ties to Germany, and am american president needs to be unbiased and not influenced by any ties to any countries but America, because that's the country whose best interests they're looking out for.

It's simple really.

You'd have a hard time finding an American that brags about their ties to some country, even if they've never been to it. Case in point: plastic paddies, Jersey Italians, etcetera.
Personally I think the natural-born citizen was something some butthead threw into the Constitution to troll Alexander Hamilton.

Doubt it. The clause contains an exemption for citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.

[Middle Pacific]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

Your father is not a true american. He has ties to Germany, and am american president needs to be unbiased and not influenced by any ties to any countries but America, because that's the country whose best interests they're looking out for.

It's simple really.

Citizenship is the only identifier of nationality. A person who is exclusively an American citizenship, and holds no other citizenship, has no allegiance to any foreign power, in law (and the law is all that matters, we run this country on laws, not irrational feelings).

Would you prefer Timothy McVeigh or Madeleine Albright to have been President of the United States?

Would you prefer Eric Robert Rudolph or Henry Kissinger to have been President?

Guess which of these individuals are citizens by accident of birth and which are immigrants who earned their citizenship, including taking a citizenship test and an oath of allegiance to the United States of America, which is not legally required for the former.

[Romalae]

My father was born in Guatemala to German parents, and moved to the USA when he was two years old and eventually became a naturalized citizen. Other than those two years, he's been an American all his life and even has an MD and PhD; an upstanding citizen. Shouldn't someone like him be qualified to run for president even though he wasn't born here and his parents weren't American citizens at the time?

I mean he's never known a world that is not America.


And also I would probably benefit greatly if my dad became president.

Your father is not a true american. He has ties to Germany, and am american president needs to be unbiased and not influenced by any ties to any countries but America, because that's the country whose best interests they're looking out for.

It's simple really.

You can have ties to another country and still be a "true American." My dad is a true American. He's lived here all his conscious life. He is a respected oncologist here. He has never lived in Germany. The whole reason his parents came here is because they wanted to get the hell away from East Germany.

Also, most Americans identify themselves with a certain national or ethnic background, as we are a nation of immigrants.

[AiliailiA]

If the intention is to prevent anyone with loyalties to a foreign country becoming president, the implementation is lacking.

The US allows dual citizenship. Providing they were natural-born citizens of the US, an American could openly swear loyalty to a foreign country (by becoming a citizen of that country) and this clause of the Constitution wouldn't disqualify them from later becoming President.

Bit of a loophole there ...

There's also this:

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

Foreign citizenship may well be a "title, of any kind" and the office of President an "office of profit or trust" ... but is it an office of profit or trust under Congress? Almost certainly not. Even if this clause does prevent a natural born citizen accepting foreign citizenship while in the office of President (without "consent" of Congress) it doesn't prevent the citizen from accepting foreign citizenship before that and then running for President.

Unfortunately, neither Iran or North Korea allow dual citizenship. Those would make such lovely examples ...

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

Anyone who is an American citizen, regardless of where they were born should be eligible for the presidency. As long as they've lived in the US for a certain amount of time.

[Middle Pacific]

Anyone who is exclusively an American citizen, regardless of where they were born should be eligible for the presidency. As long as they've lived in the US for a certain amount of time.

Perfect.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

If the intention is to prevent anyone with loyalties to a foreign country becoming president, the implementation is lacking.

The US allows dual citizenship. Providing they were natural-born citizens of the US, an American could openly swear loyalty to a foreign country (by becoming a citizen of that country) and this clause of the Constitution wouldn't disqualify them from later becoming President.

Bit of a loophole there ...

There's also this:

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

Foreign citizenship may well be a "title, of any kind" and the office of President an "office of profit or trust" ... but is it an office of profit or trust under Congress? Almost certainly not. Even if this clause does prevent a natural born citizen accepting foreign citizenship while in the office of President (without "consent" of Congress) it doesn't prevent the citizen from accepting foreign citizenship before that and then running for President.

Unfortunately, neither Iran or North Korea allow dual citizenship. Those would make such lovely examples ...

That clause should also be entirely abolished. There's no reason whatsoever why an American citizen shouldn't be allowed to be granted a foreign title of nobility.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Yes, that is in fact the law. Any person who is by birth an American citizen has a shot at becoming president.

[AiliailiA]

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

Nope. Being born overseas to a US citizen mother does not make a person automatically a citizen at birth.

If you mean "should it?" I would say no. BOTH parents perhaps, but having it only the mother is arbitrarily sexist. That would have made sense in previous times when 'who the mother was' could be far more easily proven than 'who the father was'. It's unneccessary now with DNA paternity and maternity tests, and going only by whether the woman giving birth is the mother is less reliable now with surrogacy. It would have been a rationally sexist criterion then, it's not now.

[AiliailiA]

If the intention is to prevent anyone with loyalties to a foreign country becoming president, the implementation is lacking.

The US allows dual citizenship. Providing they were natural-born citizens of the US, an American could openly swear loyalty to a foreign country (by becoming a citizen of that country) and this clause of the Constitution wouldn't disqualify them from later becoming President.

Bit of a loophole there ...

There's also this:


Foreign citizenship may well be a "title, of any kind" and the office of President an "office of profit or trust" ... but is it an office of profit or trust under Congress? Almost certainly not. Even if this clause does prevent a natural born citizen accepting foreign citizenship while in the office of President (without "consent" of Congress) it doesn't prevent the citizen from accepting foreign citizenship before that and then running for President.

Unfortunately, neither Iran or North Korea allow dual citizenship. Those would make such lovely examples ...

That clause should also be entirely abolished. There's no reason whatsoever why an American citizen shouldn't be allowed to be granted a foreign title of nobility.

They can, unless they hold a government office "under Congress". And they still can, even if they hold an office, but only if Congress approves it.