Have you ever read the works of the Russian Sex Kitten?
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by Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:24 pm

by Russels Orbiting Teapot » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:29 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Agree that it seems symptomatic of a bad parent. Just goes to show that gay people are just like straight people... sometimes they want to make their children fit the mold of the parents neatly even if it is a poor fit.
The top commenters on the article have the right of it even if the author doesn't appear to. I will quote one of them to agree:I made the mistake of reading to the end, looking for the redeeming spin, development, insight that would make the logic somewhat above impossible.
Reading through the article to the end doesn't add much more than the title. The parent comes off as self-centered and harmful.
All I ultimately care about is that she has the choice and that whatever choice she makes is enthusiastically embraced and celebrated.
Time will tell, but so far, it doesn’t look like my 6-year-old daughter is gay. In fact, she’s boy crazy. It seems early to me, but I’m trying to be supportive. Recently, she had a crush on an older boy on her school bus. She was acting as any precocious, socially awkward child would, which is to say not very subtle. I confided in a friend who has an older daughter. “She wants to give this kid a card and presents,” I e-mailed. “The other kid is so embarrassed. It’s painful to watch. What do I do?”
My friend wrote back with a slew of helpful advice, ending with a punch to my gut: “Bet it wouldn’t bother you so much if her crush was on a girl.”
She was right. I’m a slightly overbearing pro-gay gay mom. But I’m going to support my daughter, whatever choices she makes.

by Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:31 pm
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:Tahar Joblis wrote:Agree that it seems symptomatic of a bad parent. Just goes to show that gay people are just like straight people... sometimes they want to make their children fit the mold of the parents neatly even if it is a poor fit.
The top commenters on the article have the right of it even if the author doesn't appear to. I will quote one of them to agree:
Reading through the article to the end doesn't add much more than the title. The parent comes off as self-centered and harmful.
Really?All I ultimately care about is that she has the choice and that whatever choice she makes is enthusiastically embraced and celebrated.
Time will tell, but so far, it doesn’t look like my 6-year-old daughter is gay. In fact, she’s boy crazy. It seems early to me, but I’m trying to be supportive. Recently, she had a crush on an older boy on her school bus. She was acting as any precocious, socially awkward child would, which is to say not very subtle. I confided in a friend who has an older daughter. “She wants to give this kid a card and presents,” I e-mailed. “The other kid is so embarrassed. It’s painful to watch. What do I do?”
My friend wrote back with a slew of helpful advice, ending with a punch to my gut: “Bet it wouldn’t bother you so much if her crush was on a girl.”
She was right. I’m a slightly overbearing pro-gay gay mom. But I’m going to support my daughter, whatever choices she makes.
Please explain to me how that comes off as harmful to you.

by Tahar Joblis » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:45 pm
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:Tahar Joblis wrote:Agree that it seems symptomatic of a bad parent. Just goes to show that gay people are just like straight people... sometimes they want to make their children fit the mold of the parents neatly even if it is a poor fit.
The top commenters on the article have the right of it even if the author doesn't appear to. I will quote one of them to agree:
Reading through the article to the end doesn't add much more than the title. The parent comes off as self-centered and harmful.
Really?All I ultimately care about is that she has the choice and that whatever choice she makes is enthusiastically embraced and celebrated.
Time will tell, but so far, it doesn’t look like my 6-year-old daughter is gay. In fact, she’s boy crazy. It seems early to me, but I’m trying to be supportive. Recently, she had a crush on an older boy on her school bus. She was acting as any precocious, socially awkward child would, which is to say not very subtle. I confided in a friend who has an older daughter. “She wants to give this kid a card and presents,” I e-mailed. “The other kid is so embarrassed. It’s painful to watch. What do I do?”
My friend wrote back with a slew of helpful advice, ending with a punch to my gut: “Bet it wouldn’t bother you so much if her crush was on a girl.”
She was right. I’m a slightly overbearing pro-gay gay mom. But I’m going to support my daughter, whatever choices she makes.
Please explain to me how that comes off as harmful to you.
When I was a teenager, my father cautioned me against marrying a black person. “I’m just trying to protect you,” he said. But it was impossible to know whether he meant to insulate me from the world’s bias or implicitly rationalize his own.

by Desperate Measures » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:47 pm

by Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:52 pm

by Tahar Joblis » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:56 pm
Fartsniffage wrote:It's TJ and the person who wrote the editorial was a woman. Do the math.
seaduck2001
2/20/2015 1:31 PM PST
Amen to that. I'm a lesbian and agree 100%. This article is very disjointed - some logic but doesn't at all lead the reader to her conclusion. Children "hear" the expectations of their parents and if her daughter turns out straight she will undoubtedly feel as though she has somehow disappointed her parents. Not a fair burden to put on a child.
Meg_Atwood
2/22/2015 5:22 PM PST
I get the impression that the writer doesn't associate with men much--or if she does, she really doesn't like what she sees, and doesn't want to have to deal with them.
I say this as a pro-gay-marriage liberal: I feel sorry for that kid. Not because she's being raised by gay parents but because her parents are using her as an extension of their political agenda. She wants her kid to be gay. Why? She doesn't really explain. She doesn't claim that being gay is better, just that "being gay is equally desirable to being straight." So then why do you want her to be gay, author? Because you are? Because, maybe, your gayness is not merely a sexual orientation but a political cause, one you want your daughter to take up? So, is it possible you're not just raising a child but training a foot soldier? And it would kinda suck if she asked for her discharge papers, even if she still supported the cause, because being a straight supporter of gay rights just isn't the same? Author, grow up. Your kid is an independent person, not a pawn.
I have a family member that spent many years teaching the deaf. She's also a lesbian, been happily married for a long time. So she's lived in both worlds. She saw a lot of those parents that are rather militant in preferring their children remain deaf -- and see how they fight against the parents that choose to get their kids the implants.
She doesn't get either of these fights. Give your kid the best life you can give them. Its really not complicated.
fwiw, there are issues with the implants, so there are parents that have legit reasons/concerns to not go with them. But its the parents who want their children to remain deaf because they feel its sort of a purity thing that she doesn't get.
That said, I wouldn't want my children to be anything other than happy. By publishing this narrative, the author is imposing something on her daughter. Who is 6. No parent should do that.

by Desperate Measures » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:00 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:
When a parent describes themselves as "slightly overbearing," I lend more credence to the "overbearing" part than the "slightly" part.
Her friends have told her:
(A) "Don't you want her to be happy?"
(B) "Bet it wouldn't bother you so much if her crush was on a girl."
It's quite clear that her friends are alarmed about the way that she very clearly wants her daughter to be gay, and concerned that she's putting pressure on the child to conform to her expectations (and setting the child up for issues when the child realizes her parents are disappointed in her choice). She has announced:
(C) "It’s more widely acceptable to be gay in America today, but that’s not the same as being desirable. In my house, though, it is."
(D) "Plus, I’ve never for a single second regretted being gay, nor saw it as anything other than an asset and a gift." (Going on to talk about how she has benefited from being gay.)
(E) "When my daughter plays house with her stuffed koala bears as the mom and dad, we gently remind her that they could be a dad and dad." ("Gently.")
There is indeed a difference between acceptable and desirable. The message that she is passing on to her daughter is that being straight is acceptable but not desirable. And just as she herself chafed at being merely "acceptable" but not "desirable," her daughter is going to chafe at merely being "acceptable" but not "desirable."
You shouldn't be telling your kid that some sexual orientation is desirable. They should all simply be acceptable.
She's claiming to be a supportive parent while raising a lot of red flags.When I was a teenager, my father cautioned me against marrying a black person. “I’m just trying to protect you,” he said. But it was impossible to know whether he meant to insulate me from the world’s bias or implicitly rationalize his own.
I suspect she's projecting here, and trying to rationalize her own bias in this article.

by Russels Orbiting Teapot » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:04 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Please explain to me how that comes off as harmful to you.
When a parent describes themselves as "slightly overbearing," I lend more credence to the "overbearing" part than the "slightly" part.
Her friends have told her:
(A) "Don't you want her to be happy?"
(B) "Bet it wouldn't bother you so much if her crush was on a girl."
It's quite clear that her friends are alarmed about the way that she very clearly wants her daughter to be gay, and concerned that she's putting pressure on the child to conform to her expectations (and setting the child up for issues when the child realizes her parents are disappointed in her choice). She has announced:
(C) "It’s more widely acceptable to be gay in America today, but that’s not the same as being desirable. In my house, though, it is."
(D) "Plus, I’ve never for a single second regretted being gay, nor saw it as anything other than an asset and a gift." (Going on to talk about how she has benefited from being gay.)
(E) "When my daughter plays house with her stuffed koala bears as the mom and dad, we gently remind her that they could be a dad and dad." ("Gently.")
There is indeed a difference between acceptable and desirable. The message that she is passing on to her daughter is that being straight is acceptable but not desirable. And just as she herself chafed at being merely "acceptable" but not "desirable," her daughter is going to chafe at merely being "acceptable" but not "desirable."
You shouldn't be telling your kid that some sexual orientation is desirable. They should all simply be acceptable.
She's claiming to be a supportive parent while raising a lot of red flags.When I was a teenager, my father cautioned me against marrying a black person. “I’m just trying to protect you,” he said. But it was impossible to know whether he meant to insulate me from the world’s bias or implicitly rationalize his own.
I suspect she's projecting here, and trying to rationalize her own bias in this article.

by Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:05 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:And when your friends are telling you that you're putting pressure on your kid and to ease up for their sake? Well, your friends are probably right. Step back, self-confessed overbearing parent, step back!

by Tahar Joblis » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:08 pm
Desperate Measures wrote:Tahar Joblis wrote:When a parent describes themselves as "slightly overbearing," I lend more credence to the "overbearing" part than the "slightly" part.
Her friends have told her:
(A) "Don't you want her to be happy?"
(B) "Bet it wouldn't bother you so much if her crush was on a girl."
It's quite clear that her friends are alarmed about the way that she very clearly wants her daughter to be gay, and concerned that she's putting pressure on the child to conform to her expectations (and setting the child up for issues when the child realizes her parents are disappointed in her choice). She has announced:
(C) "It’s more widely acceptable to be gay in America today, but that’s not the same as being desirable. In my house, though, it is."
(D) "Plus, I’ve never for a single second regretted being gay, nor saw it as anything other than an asset and a gift." (Going on to talk about how she has benefited from being gay.)
(E) "When my daughter plays house with her stuffed koala bears as the mom and dad, we gently remind her that they could be a dad and dad." ("Gently.")
There is indeed a difference between acceptable and desirable. The message that she is passing on to her daughter is that being straight is acceptable but not desirable. And just as she herself chafed at being merely "acceptable" but not "desirable," her daughter is going to chafe at merely being "acceptable" but not "desirable."
You shouldn't be telling your kid that some sexual orientation is desirable. They should all simply be acceptable.
She's claiming to be a supportive parent while raising a lot of red flags.
I suspect she's projecting here, and trying to rationalize her own bias in this article.
You're not coming away with the point of the article. We're not all built as perfect human beings ready to give optimal care to our children as parents. It's a process and it's done through introspection and growth. And there is no way that your own bias will not come into it. Or the points of view that you've come to take on through time. To step back and say "hey, I'm kind of doing what my parent did here and that was wrong" is something every well meaning parent has thought at least once.
But I don't know. Maybe you're one of the lucky few that doesn't really have to contend with any sort of personal bias.

by The Sotoan Union » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:08 pm

by Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:10 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Desperate Measures wrote:You're not coming away with the point of the article. We're not all built as perfect human beings ready to give optimal care to our children as parents. It's a process and it's done through introspection and growth. And there is no way that your own bias will not come into it. Or the points of view that you've come to take on through time. To step back and say "hey, I'm kind of doing what my parent did here and that was wrong" is something every well meaning parent has thought at least once.
But I don't know. Maybe you're one of the lucky few that doesn't really have to contend with any sort of personal bias.
Introspection is visible in this article. Growth is not.
She exhibits her bias. (Introspection: "I have this bias.") She talks about how her friends are warning her about her bias making her a bad parent. She describes trying to control how her kid plays with dolls. She does some rationalizing as to why she doesn't want to listen to her friends. She admits that she's an overbearing parent (more introspection).
Where's the growth? Where, in this article, do we see signs that the author is going through the process of becoming a better parent?
She was right. I’m a slightly overbearing pro-gay gay mom. But I’m going to support my daughter, whatever choices she makes.

by New Terricon » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:12 pm
Laanvia wrote:What a bigot...

by Desperate Measures » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:13 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Desperate Measures wrote:You're not coming away with the point of the article. We're not all built as perfect human beings ready to give optimal care to our children as parents. It's a process and it's done through introspection and growth. And there is no way that your own bias will not come into it. Or the points of view that you've come to take on through time. To step back and say "hey, I'm kind of doing what my parent did here and that was wrong" is something every well meaning parent has thought at least once.
But I don't know. Maybe you're one of the lucky few that doesn't really have to contend with any sort of personal bias.
Introspection is visible in this article. Growth is not.
She exhibits her bias. (Introspection: "I have this bias.") She talks about how her friends are warning her about her bias making her a bad parent. She describes trying to control how her kid plays with dolls. She does some rationalizing as to why she doesn't want to listen to her friends. She admits that she's an overbearing parent (more introspection).
Where's the growth? Where, in this article, do we see signs that the author is going through the process of becoming a better parent?

by Tahar Joblis » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:13 pm
Fartsniffage wrote:Tahar Joblis wrote:And when your friends are telling you that you're putting pressure on your kid and to ease up for their sake? Well, your friends are probably right. Step back, self-confessed overbearing parent, step back!
Which is exactly what the writer of the editorial is saying that she is doing. Jesus Christ, the piece is not that long and it comes at the end.
Try to think of it this way, it's not a fucking manifesto, it's a narrative of a progression in attitude through time as a parent. The end is more important than the beginning.
But I’m going to support my daughter, whatever choices she makes.
All I ultimately care about is that she has the choice and that whatever choice she makes is enthusiastically embraced and celebrated.
But no matter what, I’d want my child to be herself.

by Russels Orbiting Teapot » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:13 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Introspection is visible in this article. Growth is not.
She exhibits her bias. (Introspection: "I have this bias.") She talks about how her friends are warning her about her bias making her a bad parent. She describes trying to control how her kid plays with dolls. She does some rationalizing as to why she doesn't want to listen to her friends. She admits that she's an overbearing parent (more introspection).
Where's the growth? Where, in this article, do we see signs that the author is going through the process of becoming a better parent?
by Cannot think of a name » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:15 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Fartsniffage wrote:
Which is exactly what the writer of the editorial is saying that she is doing. Jesus Christ, the piece is not that long and it comes at the end.
Try to think of it this way, it's not a fucking manifesto, it's a narrative of a progression in attitude through time as a parent. The end is more important than the beginning.
You mean this line at the end?But I’m going to support my daughter, whatever choices she makes.
Which is much the same as this line a couple paragraphs up?All I ultimately care about is that she has the choice and that whatever choice she makes is enthusiastically embraced and celebrated.
Or this line, substantially earlier in the article?But no matter what, I’d want my child to be herself.
What narrative of progression?
She is alternating platitudes about supporting her child no matter what with a discussion of the ways in which she's making it clear to her kid what Mommy wants her to grow up to be. And along the way, we see rationalization attempting to paper over the gap between that principle and that action. We don't see a narrative of progression of parenting techniques or of progression of beliefs; we see a narrative in which parenting is static and unchanging.

by Desperate Measures » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:16 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Fartsniffage wrote:
Which is exactly what the writer of the editorial is saying that she is doing. Jesus Christ, the piece is not that long and it comes at the end.
Try to think of it this way, it's not a fucking manifesto, it's a narrative of a progression in attitude through time as a parent. The end is more important than the beginning.
You mean this line at the end?But I’m going to support my daughter, whatever choices she makes.
Which is much the same as this line a couple paragraphs up?All I ultimately care about is that she has the choice and that whatever choice she makes is enthusiastically embraced and celebrated.
Or this line, substantially earlier in the article?But no matter what, I’d want my child to be herself.
What narrative of progression?
She is alternating platitudes about supporting her child no matter what with a discussion of the ways in which she's making it clear to her kid what Mommy wants her to grow up to be. And along the way, we see rationalization attempting to paper over the gap between that principle and that action. We don't see a narrative of progression of parenting techniques or of progression of beliefs; we see a narrative in which parenting is static and unchanging.
by Cannot think of a name » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:16 pm

by Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:20 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Fartsniffage wrote:
Which is exactly what the writer of the editorial is saying that she is doing. Jesus Christ, the piece is not that long and it comes at the end.
Try to think of it this way, it's not a fucking manifesto, it's a narrative of a progression in attitude through time as a parent. The end is more important than the beginning.
You mean this line at the end?But I’m going to support my daughter, whatever choices she makes.
Which is much the same as this line a couple paragraphs up?All I ultimately care about is that she has the choice and that whatever choice she makes is enthusiastically embraced and celebrated.
Or this line, substantially earlier in the article?But no matter what, I’d want my child to be herself.
What narrative of progression?
She is alternating platitudes about supporting her child no matter what with a discussion of the ways in which she's making it clear to her kid what Mommy wants her to grow up to be. And along the way, we see rationalization attempting to paper over the gap between that principle and that action. We don't see a narrative of progression of parenting techniques or of progression of beliefs; we see a narrative in which parenting is static and unchanging.

by Tahar Joblis » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:21 pm
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:Tahar Joblis wrote:Introspection is visible in this article. Growth is not.
She exhibits her bias. (Introspection: "I have this bias.") She talks about how her friends are warning her about her bias making her a bad parent. She describes trying to control how her kid plays with dolls. She does some rationalizing as to why she doesn't want to listen to her friends. She admits that she's an overbearing parent (more introspection).
Where's the growth? Where, in this article, do we see signs that the author is going through the process of becoming a better parent?
Maybe she litterally had this realization yesterday, wrote an article about it, and hasn't had time to really start applying her new perspective much less give us a progress report about it?
It's a personal account from a moment in time, not a novel with a completed plot.
by Cannot think of a name » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:22 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:The typical parenting advice article in this sort of genre

by The Cobalt Sky » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:23 pm

by Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:25 pm
Tahar Joblis wrote:Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Maybe she litterally had this realization yesterday, wrote an article about it, and hasn't had time to really start applying her new perspective much less give us a progress report about it?
It's a personal account from a moment in time, not a novel with a completed plot.
The typical parenting advice article in this sort of genre starts with the parent either thinking or doing something wrong, and then changing their thinking or doing, or both, by the end. E.g.:
- "I was doing X, but thought it was wrong because Y, but now I think Z, so X was OK all along."
- "I was doing X, but thought it was OK because Y, but now I think Z, so I'm not going to do X anymore."
- "I was doing X, but thought it was wrong because Y, and I finally stopped doing X."
It doesn't take a novel to get there. This article looked like either raw clickbait or fishing for affirmation. ("I'm doing this! And I think this! Aren't I wonderful?")
Now, maybe she's inviting comment, and the twist will come in Article #2: The Sequel when she says "I used to do X, and then you guys agreed with my friends, so I'm not going to do X anymore. Thanks, Internet Commenters, you helped me wise up as a parent."
Would you like to put odds on that happening?
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