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Copenhagen shooting during debate on Islam

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Gravlen
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Postby Gravlen » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:54 am

Quintium wrote:
Alyakia wrote:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Terrorist_Attacks_in_the_EU_by_Affiliation.png


The problem with Europol is that it has an absurd definition of terrorism and terrorist groups.

The definition of the term ‘terrorist offences’ is indicated in
Article 1 of the Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002
on combating terrorism (2002/475/JHA),22 which all EU
Member States have implemented in their national legislation.
This Framework Decision specifies that terrorist offences
are intentional acts which, given their nature or context,
may seriously damage a country or an international organisation
when committed with the aim of:

• seriously intimidating a population, or

• unduly compelling a government or international organisation
to perform or abstain from performing an act, or

• seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political,
constitutional, economic or social structures of a
country or an international organisation.

In cases in which the wording of Article 1 of the Framework
Decision leaves room for interpretation, the TE-SAT 2013
respects Member States’ definitions of terrorist offences on
their territories. At times, it can be difficult to assess whether
a criminal event should be regarded as an act of ‘terrorism’
or as an act of ‘extremism’. Contrary to terrorism, not all forms
of extremism sanction the use of violence. Nevertheless, extremism
as a phenomenon may be related to terrorism and
exhibit similar behavioural patterns. Therefore, the TE-SAT
2013 mentions criminal acts with the potential to seriously
destabilise or destroy the fundamental political, constitutional,
economic or social structures of a country, when they
were reported by the Member States as extremism, in an
effort to provide a clearer picture of the phenomenon and
its relation to terrorism. However, these cases were not considered
in the statistical data of this report, which exclusively
reflect incidents reported as terrorism by EU Member States.

What, exactly, is absurd about this?

Quintium wrote: Reading their report for 2012, it is easy to see why separatists and the far-right are behind most 'acts of terrorism' if I look at the organisations they consider to be terrorist and the actions they consider to be terrorist. For example, the Génération Identitaire (whose only claim to fame is peacefully occupying the Poitiers mosque) is considered a terrorist organisation, and so is the English Defence League.

Huh, that's curious. A word search through the 2012 EU terrorism situation and trend report doesn't turn up any results for "Génération Identitaire" or "Identitaire", nor for "defence", "league" or "English Defence league".

Very odd, don't you think?

Maybe you meant the 2013 report? If you did, you have failed to notice that the English Defence League is not mentioned under terrorism, but rather violent right-wing extremism, while Génération Identitaire remains unmentioned (Same as with the 2014 report).

Quintium wrote: In fact, the report makes clear that all organisations that are anti-Islam or against Muslim immigration or oppose multiculturalism are considered far-right extremists.

In addition, when it comes to animal cruelty, organisations that wanted to free animals from testing departments are also considered terrorist. Activists who tried to prevent the construction of a high-speed train link near Turin were also considered terrorists.

Incorrect. That's not what the report says.
EnragedMaldivians wrote:That's preposterous. Gravlens's not a white nationalist; Gravlen's a penguin.

Unio de Sovetaj Socialismaj Respublikoj wrote:There is no use arguing the definition of murder with someone who has a picture of a penguin with a chainsaw as their nations flag.

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Gravlen
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Postby Gravlen » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:14 am

The attack itself seems to have been poorly planned. The attacker didn't take into account the glass barrier which luckily stopped most of the bullets, and he didn't have a getaway vehicle. After hijacking a car to get away from Krudttønden, he called a taxi to take him home.

After his second attack, he returned home again. This time the police were waiting for him...
EnragedMaldivians wrote:That's preposterous. Gravlens's not a white nationalist; Gravlen's a penguin.

Unio de Sovetaj Socialismaj Respublikoj wrote:There is no use arguing the definition of murder with someone who has a picture of a penguin with a chainsaw as their nations flag.

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New Jordslag
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Postby New Jordslag » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:15 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Anybody noticed Netanyahu's reaction to this? Here's what he said, straight from Wikipedia:

Good move, Benjamin. Good move.


Again? Really?

I think he would prefer it if every Jew in the world immediately moved to Israel. Helps marginalized them Palestinians even more.

Good ol' Ben.
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Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Then we can have another New York. No such thing as too many New Yorks.


And somewhere in New York, Big Jim P gets a cold shudder down his spine.

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Quintium
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Postby Quintium » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:16 am

Gravlen wrote:What, exactly, is absurd about this?


Finally, this law stuff is going to pay off in my endless internet arguments.

"...terrorist offences are intentional acts which, given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or an international organisation when committed with the aim of:
• seriously intimidating a population, or
• unduly compelling a government or international organisation
to perform or abstain from performing an act, or
• seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political,
constitutional, economic or social structures of a
country or an international organisation."


Let's examine a speech given by Nigel Farage in the European Parliament - in fact, nearly any speech he has made in the European Parliament. Is it an intentional act? Yes, it is an intentional act. Could it seriously damage an international organisation? Yes, it could seriously damage an international organisation. Is this done to seriously destabilize or destroy 'the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of (...) an international organisation'? Yes, it is. Do you see the problem here? The problem here is that the definition extends not just to violent actions, but to any intentional action (including speech) which is meant to and could result in the destabilization or destruction of the European Union or any country (not just member states).

Under this definition, it is defensible when practical to brand political opposition to a certain idea or a certain government as terrorism. For example, one of the reasons why European Union member states arrested dozens of Kurdish activists a few years ago was because those activists were getting in the way of the Turkish government, and the Turkish government wanted them to take action. In my country, fifty-five people who hadn't committed any crimes against my country or our legal order were arrested for political crimes.

And, well, with a definition like that, as well as a lot of ideological zealots in office who are hell-bent on picking low-hanging fruits, you're going to see some really unlikely things being branded terrorism.

Gravlen wrote:Maybe you meant the 2013 report? If you did, you have failed to notice that the English Defence League is not mentioned under terrorism, but rather violent right-wing extremism, while Génération Identitaire remains unmentioned (Same as with the 2014 report).


TE-SAT 2013, which deals with terrorism in the year 2012. That's the one I meant. I did not mention the 2014 report at all, so I have no idea where you got that idea from.
Anyway, I will direct you to it. Page 37, under Chapter 5.

A phenomenon that has developed recently on social media is a movement, established initially in France, which opposes multiculturalism and French social politics. The movement uses the Lambda symbol as a logo. It has received significant positive feedback and to date has been replicated in Belgium, Germany and Austria. This movement advocates a national, racially-defined identity to counteract a perceived demographic imbalance caused by increasing immigration.
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Herskerstad
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Postby Herskerstad » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:44 am

Well, that's one way to end a debate, I guess.

Condolences to all those wounded and afflicted by this horrible tragedy.
Last edited by Herskerstad on Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Catholic Federalized States
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Postby Catholic Federalized States » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:55 am

Denmark's fault for inviting so many Muslims. Muslim-free states in Europe are generally free from terrorism, such as Finland and Poland. Definitely not a coincidence.

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New Jordslag
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Postby New Jordslag » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:57 am

Catholic Federalized States wrote:Denmark's fault for inviting so many Muslims. Muslim-free states in Europe are generally free from terrorism, such as Finland and Poland. Definitely not a coincidence.

Having a Muslim minority does not necessarily mean an increase in terrorism.

By that logic, any nation with a significant Christian minority will experience a spike in Abortion bombings.
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Don't worry! It's all just a tall tale, okay?
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Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Then we can have another New York. No such thing as too many New Yorks.


And somewhere in New York, Big Jim P gets a cold shudder down his spine.

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Catholic Federalized States
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Postby Catholic Federalized States » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:59 am

New Jordslag wrote:
Catholic Federalized States wrote:Denmark's fault for inviting so many Muslims. Muslim-free states in Europe are generally free from terrorism, such as Finland and Poland. Definitely not a coincidence.

Having a Muslim minority does not necessarily mean an increase in terrorism.

By that logic, any nation with a significant Christian minority will experience a spike in Abortion bombings.


Having a Muslim minority increases terrorism without an argument.

The more muslims you have, the more terrorist attacks you have.

Finland? Zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks. Coincidence? No.

Poverty?

Poland? Poor, lots of poverty, zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks.

Abortion bombings?

Poland? 97% Catholic, zero abortion bombings, abortion legal.

France? 10% Muslims - terrorist attacks.
UK? 10% Muslim - terrorist attacks.
Denmark? Sweden? terrorist attacks.

Bosnia? 50% Muslim - war.
Last edited by Catholic Federalized States on Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:02 am

Catholic Federalized States wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Having a Muslim minority does not necessarily mean an increase in terrorism.

By that logic, any nation with a significant Christian minority will experience a spike in Abortion bombings.


Having a Muslim minority increases terrorism without an argument.

The more muslims you have, the more terrorist attacks you have.

Finland? Zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks. Coincidence? No.

Poverty?

Poland? Poor, lots of poverty, zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks.

Abortion bombings?

Poland? 97% Catholic, zero abortion bombings, abortion legal.

France? 10% Muslims - terrorist attacks.
UK? 10% Muslim - terrorist attacks.
Denmark? Sweden? terrorist attacks.

Bosnia? 50% Muslim - war.

Correlation=/=causation. And I know for a fact those other countries have muslims.
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Catholic Federalized States
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Postby Catholic Federalized States » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:13 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Catholic Federalized States wrote:
Having a Muslim minority increases terrorism without an argument.

The more muslims you have, the more terrorist attacks you have.

Finland? Zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks. Coincidence? No.

Poverty?

Poland? Poor, lots of poverty, zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks.

Abortion bombings?

Poland? 97% Catholic, zero abortion bombings, abortion legal.

France? 10% Muslims - terrorist attacks.
UK? 10% Muslim - terrorist attacks.
Denmark? Sweden? terrorist attacks.

Bosnia? 50% Muslim - war.

Correlation=/=causation. And I know for a fact those other countries have muslims.


Census in Poland has shown 1 132 Muslims out of 39 000 000 people in Poland.

Hardly anything. The majority of them also live in Eastern Poland and are Tatars rather than Muslims found in Western Europe like Sunni or Shi'a.

In Finland there's a minority of ~3000 Muslims out of 5 500 000 people in Finland.

Stark contrast to the 4 million in UK out of 64 million or the 5 million in France out of 65 million or the 1 million out of 10 million in Belgium

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New Jordslag
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Postby New Jordslag » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:16 am

Catholic Federalized States wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Having a Muslim minority does not necessarily mean an increase in terrorism.

By that logic, any nation with a significant Christian minority will experience a spike in Abortion bombings.


Having a Muslim minority increases terrorism without an argument.

The more muslims you have, the more terrorist attacks you have.

Finland? Zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks. Coincidence? No.

Poverty?

Poland? Poor, lots of poverty, zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks.

Abortion bombings?

Poland? 97% Catholic, zero abortion bombings, abortion legal.

France? 10% Muslims - terrorist attacks.
UK? 10% Muslim - terrorist attacks.
Denmark? Sweden? terrorist attacks.

Bosnia? 50% Muslim - war.

Having a Muslim Minority increases the number of Muslims you have. Not more. Muslims are not born Terrorists; there are a few insane ones out there, and a vast majority of moderate ones who suffer due to the insane ones.

See, what you use is what I call Icelandic logic: Iceland has an overwhelming Icelandic majority. The majority of crimes in Iceland are committed by Icelandics. No coincidence.

You have brought up a point that is, quite frankly, insulting to Muslims, because it states that Muslims are more 'ebul' and 'warlike' than other religions.

Crimes committed by Muslims do indeed grow when a Muslim minority grows. The same logic can be applied to Catholics. And Protestants. And Hindus. And Shintos. And Rastafarians. Muslims are no more likely to be Terrorists than any other religion.

Bosnia doesn't even apply in this scenario. It's war was caused due to Serb-Croat tensions.
Last edited by New Jordslag on Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Then we can have another New York. No such thing as too many New Yorks.


And somewhere in New York, Big Jim P gets a cold shudder down his spine.

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:18 am

New Jordslag wrote:Crimes committed by Muslims do indeed grow when a Muslim minority grows. The same logic can be applied to Catholics. And Protestants. And Hindus. And Shintos. And Rastafarians.


Not entirely true. The number of crimes commited by muslims increases disproportionally the more moslims you have. Twice as many muslims is 10x the crime (numbers pulled from arse to clarify; however it really is the case that muslims tend to be vastly overrepresented in crime figures when compared to other minorities).
The cause for this is unknown, since political correctness forbade decent research.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Catholic Federalized States
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Postby Catholic Federalized States » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:23 am

New Jordslag wrote:
Catholic Federalized States wrote:
Having a Muslim minority increases terrorism without an argument.

The more muslims you have, the more terrorist attacks you have.

Finland? Zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks. Coincidence? No.

Poverty?

Poland? Poor, lots of poverty, zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks.

Abortion bombings?

Poland? 97% Catholic, zero abortion bombings, abortion legal.

France? 10% Muslims - terrorist attacks.
UK? 10% Muslim - terrorist attacks.
Denmark? Sweden? terrorist attacks.

Bosnia? 50% Muslim - war.

Having a Muslim Minority increases the number of Muslims you have. Not more. Muslims are not born Terrorists; there are a few insane ones out there, and a vast majority of moderate ones who suffer due to the insane ones.

See, what you use is what I call Icelandic logic: Iceland has an overwhelming Icelandic majority. The majority of crimes in Iceland are committed by Icelandics. No coincidence.

You have brought up a point that is, quite frankly, insulting to Muslims, because it states that Muslims are more 'ebul' and 'warlike' than other religions.

Crimes committed by Muslims do indeed grow when a Muslim minority grows. The same logic can be applied to Catholics. And Protestants. And Hindus. And Shintos. And Rastafarians. Muslims are no more likely to be Terrorists than any other religion.

Bosnia doesn't even apply in this scenario. It's war was caused due to Serb-Croat tensions.


France has 10% Muslims. 65% of the prison population is Muslim.

Are you telling me that crime increases in the same proportion as the population? Because this is clearly wrong.

And terrorist attacks increasing at a dramatic rate the more muslims you have is not a coincidence.

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New Jordslag
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Postby New Jordslag » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:30 am

Catholic Federalized States wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Having a Muslim Minority increases the number of Muslims you have. Not more. Muslims are not born Terrorists; there are a few insane ones out there, and a vast majority of moderate ones who suffer due to the insane ones.

See, what you use is what I call Icelandic logic: Iceland has an overwhelming Icelandic majority. The majority of crimes in Iceland are committed by Icelandics. No coincidence.

You have brought up a point that is, quite frankly, insulting to Muslims, because it states that Muslims are more 'ebul' and 'warlike' than other religions.

Crimes committed by Muslims do indeed grow when a Muslim minority grows. The same logic can be applied to Catholics. And Protestants. And Hindus. And Shintos. And Rastafarians. Muslims are no more likely to be Terrorists than any other religion.

Bosnia doesn't even apply in this scenario. It's war was caused due to Serb-Croat tensions.


France has 10% Muslims. 65% of the prison population is Muslim.

Are you telling me that crime increases in the same proportion as the population? Because this is clearly wrong.

And terrorist attacks increasing at a dramatic rate the more muslims you have is not a coincidence.

Right. Just like how Christians commuting the most Abortion Bombings is not a coincidence.

Please don't tell me that you are one of those people who think that Islam is inherently violent.
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Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Then we can have another New York. No such thing as too many New Yorks.


And somewhere in New York, Big Jim P gets a cold shudder down his spine.

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Catholic Federalized States
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Postby Catholic Federalized States » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:35 am

New Jordslag wrote:
Catholic Federalized States wrote:
France has 10% Muslims. 65% of the prison population is Muslim.

Are you telling me that crime increases in the same proportion as the population? Because this is clearly wrong.

And terrorist attacks increasing at a dramatic rate the more muslims you have is not a coincidence.

Right. Just like how Christians commuting the most Abortion Bombings is not a coincidence.

Please don't tell me that you are one of those people who think that Islam is inherently violent.


I've just given you a statistic that Poland is 97% Catholic, abortion is legal and abortion clinics have never had a bombing.

Where is your explanation for this?

Islam is inherently violent. Muslims aren't. Majority of religions are.

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New Jordslag
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Postby New Jordslag » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:47 am

Catholic Federalized States wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Right. Just like how Christians commuting the most Abortion Bombings is not a coincidence.

Please don't tell me that you are one of those people who think that Islam is inherently violent.


I've just given you a statistic that Poland is 97% Catholic, abortion is legal and abortion clinics have never had a bombing.

Where is your explanation for this?

Islam is inherently violent. Muslims aren't. Majority of religions are.

My explanation? The Catholic majority in Poland hasn't caught a case of the crazies yet. You never know when a Muslim or Christian community might catch it. It could happen to anyone, not Muslims especially.

But then, this thread is about neither Poland or Catholics.
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Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Then we can have another New York. No such thing as too many New Yorks.


And somewhere in New York, Big Jim P gets a cold shudder down his spine.

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Atlanticatia
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:51 am

Just saying, abortion in Poland isn't decriminalised..

"Abortion in Poland is banned except in the following three circumstances.

1. When the woman's life or health is endangered by the continuation of pregnancy,
2. When the pregnancy is a result of a criminal act, or
3. When the foetus is seriously malformed"
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Blakk Metal
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Postby Blakk Metal » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:55 am

Atlanticatia wrote:Just saying, abortion in Poland isn't decriminalised..

"Abortion in Poland is banned except in the following three circumstances.

1. When the woman's life or health is endangered by the continuation of pregnancy,
2. When the pregnancy is a result of a criminal act, or
3. When the foetus is seriously malformed"

Then replace 'Poland' with 'Lithuania'.

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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:59 am

Catholic Federalized States wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Having a Muslim Minority increases the number of Muslims you have. Not more. Muslims are not born Terrorists; there are a few insane ones out there, and a vast majority of moderate ones who suffer due to the insane ones.

See, what you use is what I call Icelandic logic: Iceland has an overwhelming Icelandic majority. The majority of crimes in Iceland are committed by Icelandics. No coincidence.

You have brought up a point that is, quite frankly, insulting to Muslims, because it states that Muslims are more 'ebul' and 'warlike' than other religions.

Crimes committed by Muslims do indeed grow when a Muslim minority grows. The same logic can be applied to Catholics. And Protestants. And Hindus. And Shintos. And Rastafarians. Muslims are no more likely to be Terrorists than any other religion.

Bosnia doesn't even apply in this scenario. It's war was caused due to Serb-Croat tensions.


France has 10% Muslims. 65% of the prison population is Muslim.

Are you telling me that crime increases in the same proportion as the population? Because this is clearly wrong.

And terrorist attacks increasing at a dramatic rate the more muslims you have is not a coincidence.

I need a source on that prison population.

Yes, you have more criminals as the population increases. He didn't say it increases disproportionately.
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Quintium
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Postby Quintium » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:09 pm

New Jordslag wrote:Right. Just like how Christians commuting the most Abortion Bombings is not a coincidence.


What is it with people bringing abortion clinic bombings into this? The moment abortion clinic bombings in America kill thousands of people a month, I might start to consider the idea that Islam isn't the worst. Until then, know this: last year alone, more people were killed in the name of Islam than were killed by the Spanish Inquisition in four centuries. Yes, there's no black and white, just different (and a bit more than fifty) shades of grey. But Islam is by far the darkest of all the shades of grey we have in the world today.

New Jordslag wrote:Please don't tell me that you are one of those people who think that Islam is inherently violent.


I have read the Quran and looked into the stories behind some of the verses, and I can tell you that the theology of Islam is inherently violent.
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Eldslandet
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Postby Eldslandet » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:09 pm

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Catholic Federalized States wrote:
France has 10% Muslims. 65% of the prison population is Muslim.

Are you telling me that crime increases in the same proportion as the population? Because this is clearly wrong.

And terrorist attacks increasing at a dramatic rate the more muslims you have is not a coincidence.

I need a source on that prison population.

Yes, you have more criminals as the population increases. He didn't say it increases disproportionately.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... isons.html

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Catholic Federalized States
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Postby Catholic Federalized States » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:13 pm

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Catholic Federalized States wrote:
France has 10% Muslims. 65% of the prison population is Muslim.

Are you telling me that crime increases in the same proportion as the population? Because this is clearly wrong.

And terrorist attacks increasing at a dramatic rate the more muslims you have is not a coincidence.

I need a source on that prison population.

Yes, you have more criminals as the population increases. He didn't say it increases disproportionately.


Image

The number of mosques also disproportionately correlate with the number of violent crimes. The population density does not explain the disproportionate number of crimes committed by muslim-heavy départements.

And don't bother about "profiling" arguments.
Last edited by Catholic Federalized States on Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:35 pm

Lovely to see this has gone from a discussion about shootings to "BAN MUSLIMS."
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The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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Eastfield Lodge
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10010
Founded: May 23, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Eastfield Lodge » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:Lovely to see this has gone from a discussion about shootings to "BAN MUSLIMS."

T'was an inevitable transition my friend. If anything, I'm surprised it didn't occur sooner.
Economic Left/Right: -5.01 (formerly -5.88)
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Alyakia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18422
Founded: Jul 12, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Alyakia » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:39 pm

Catholic Federalized States wrote:
New Jordslag wrote:Having a Muslim minority does not necessarily mean an increase in terrorism.

By that logic, any nation with a significant Christian minority will experience a spike in Abortion bombings.


Having a Muslim minority increases terrorism without an argument.

The more muslims you have, the more terrorist attacks you have.

Finland? Zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks. Coincidence? No.

Poverty?

Poland? Poor, lots of poverty, zero muslims, zero terrorist attacks.

Abortion bombings?

Poland? 97% Catholic, zero abortion bombings, abortion legal.

France? 10% Muslims - terrorist attacks.
UK? 10% Muslim - terrorist attacks.
Denmark? Sweden? terrorist attacks.

Bosnia? 50% Muslim - war.


the UK was pretty much free of terrorism until the muslims came
pro: good
anti: bad

The UK and EU are Better Together

"Margaret Thatcher showed the world that women are not too soft or the weaker sex, and can be as heartless, horrible, and amoral as any male politician."

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