Copenhagen shooting during debate on Islam

[The Alma Mater]

Mostly Muslims. They really, REALLY suck at PR.

"Convert or die" does tend to scare people.

Actually, most people care little about occasional shootings and such - it just confirms the negative image they already have of muslims.
The cause of the negative image is more formed by day to day annoyances, like having your purse stolen by a muslim, being sexually harassed by groups of muslims, being shoved aside in the supermarket because the muslim does not wish to wait in line etc. etc.

It is of course a minority of muslims who does this - but such day to day occurences tend to leave a negative impression - especially if one has no other dealings with muslims. Then turn on the tv and see this type of news - and the conclusion is formed.

[Distruzio]

"Convert or die" does tend to scare people.

Actually, most people care little about occasional shootings and such - it just confirms the negative image they already have of muslims.
The cause of the negative image is more formed by day to day annoyances, like having your purse stolen by a muslim, being sexually harassed by groups of muslims, being shoved aside in the supermarket because the muslim does not wish to wait in line etc. etc.

It is of course a minority of muslims who does this - but such day to day occurences tend to leave a negative impression - especially if one has no other dealings with muslims. Then turn on the tv and see this type of news - and the conclusion is formed.

*sigh*

Such conclusions could be dispelled if more folk tried Halal meats. So damned good.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Or they do, and then everyone ignores them in favor of pretending that "ALL ADHERENTS ARE SHIT" and so they end up saying "look we already said we disown those fuckers, we aren't saying it again" and then everyone ignores them in favor of "MODERATE ADHERENTS DON'T CONDEMN thE FUNDIES."

Achieving fundamental reform in your religion takes a lot more than "we condemn the attacks and not all of us are like that, they aren't true followers". It takes an actual, cohesive effort.


Islam is in dire need of something akin to the Protest Reformation.

Except that maybe we're tired of being blamed for fucking everything at all times. As an individual, I do the best that I can through education of other Muslims. What do you want me to do, single-handedly blow ISIS a new asshole? I can't do that, clearly. Nor am I going to go join the military that has done countless things to innocent people in the name of ~tha wurr on turrism~ just so that I can die and be labeled as someone who died to propagate their Islamic ideology.

[American California]

Islam is in dire need of something akin to the Protest Reformation.

Because the Reformation solved the issues with Christianity and indeed, the Church as a whole. For the most part, the Catholic Church only grew in size and influence, with corruption and abuse only coming to the surface in recent decades.

It was vastly weakened in Northern Europe. And pointing out how corrupt the popes were was a good thing.

Sure, the Protestants don't have as many issues as they once did, but partially sectarian conflicts like the one that tore apart Northern Ireland are evidence that even reform to a more purist form of Christianity that isn't as inherently prone to severe abuses of power cannot make religion inherently peaceful.

Quakers and Anabaptists seem pretty peaceful. And the conflict in Northern Ireland, while it did start as a religious conflict, was more of a nationalist and political struggle, and religion was just a part of that.

Islam has already seen a split between the Sunnis and Shia. Sectarian violence between the two has already cost thousands of innocent people their lives. What needs to happen is for people to ask themselves why extremism is so desirable, both Muslims and non-Muslims.

But the split didn't come from a massive questioning of Islamic doctrine, but rather from a dispute over who should be Caliph. That's what Islam needs: questioning.

[United Provinces of Swaziland]

"Convert or die" does tend to scare people.

Actually, most people care little about occasional shootings and such - it just confirms the negative image they already have of muslims.
The cause of the negative image is more formed by day to day annoyances, like having your purse stolen by a muslim, being sexually harassed by groups of muslims, being shoved aside in the supermarket because the muslim does not wish to wait in line etc. etc.

It is of course a minority of muslims who does this - but such day to day occurences tend to leave a negative impression - especially if one has no other dealings with muslims. Then turn on the tv and see this type of news - and the conclusion is formed.

Precisely. When given reasons to do so our evolutionary tendency to fear foreign ''things'' is activated for the lack of a better word.

[Master Shake]

Maybe after this, then an Enlightenment will come.

Sadly that won't happen in our lifetimes...

I remember a christian telling me that Christianity used to have the same issues, but different weapons. Also since Christianity has about 800 years on Islam that it will take about that long before Islam is as mellow as Christianity...

It is an interesting point. I guess we should be happy these lands don't have nukes yet...

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Actually, most people care little about occasional shootings and such - it just confirms the negative image they already have of muslims.
The cause of the negative image is more formed by day to day annoyances, like having your purse stolen by a muslim, being sexually harassed by groups of muslims, being shoved aside in the supermarket because the muslim does not wish to wait in line etc. etc.

It is of course a minority of muslims who does this - but such day to day occurences tend to leave a negative impression - especially if one has no other dealings with muslims. Then turn on the tv and see this type of news - and the conclusion is formed.

*sigh*

Such conclusions could be dispelled if more folk tried Halal meats. So damned good.

Why can I not figure out what the sauce from the Halal vendors was

Also idk how prevalent the idea of "halal" meat is, but afaik most meats you buy at the grocery store are already halal. I don't think that it has to be ritually slaughtered or whatever to "be halal," but my ex-husband did.

[American California]

Achieving fundamental reform in your religion takes a lot more than "we condemn the attacks and not all of us are like that, they aren't true followers". It takes an actual, cohesive effort.


Islam is in dire need of something akin to the Protest Reformation.

Except that maybe we're tired of being blamed for fucking everything at all times.

Then maybe you joined the wrong club.

As an individual, I do the best that I can through education of other Muslims.

Which is about all you can do. But it is not something that happens enough.

[American California]

"Convert or die" does tend to scare people.

Actually, most people care little about occasional shootings and such

Occasional?

[Costa Fierro]

I highly doubt that especially when you are in Paris and see that most of the muslims have big money and fast cars...

Except that is a load of shit. The vast majority of Muslims in France live in the disadvantaged and poor suburbs of the major cities. 60% of all prisoners in France are Muslim.

That's not having lot's of money and fast cars. That's having no money and no cars.

[Master Shake]

Not all muslims are bad. Just the ones who pick up an AK47 and demand that you convert or die...

Basically they are like communists after WW2....

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Except that maybe we're tired of being blamed for fucking everything at all times.

Then maybe you joined the wrong club.

As an individual, I do the best that I can through education of other Muslims.

Which is about all you can do. But it is not something that happens enough.

I didn't join the club, the club joined me.

[Distruzio]

*sigh*

Such conclusions could be dispelled if more folk tried Halal meats. So damned good.

Why can I not figure out what the sauce from the Halal vendors was

I know!

Also idk how prevalent the idea of "halal" meat is, but afaik most meats you buy at the grocery store are already halal. I don't think that it has to be ritually slaughtered or whatever to "be halal," but my ex-husband did.

I believe it does have to be ritually slaughtered. Either way, I won't purchase meat except from the local Muslim butcher. He knows his shit. Not to mention his wife is always pushing fantastic recipes on me.

...maybe one day I'll take the time to visit service with them?

[Master Shake]

I highly doubt that especially when you are in Paris and see that most of the muslims have big money and fast cars...

Except that is a load of shit. The vast majority of Muslims in France live in the disadvantaged and poor suburbs of the major cities. 60% of all prisoners in France are Muslim.

That's not having lot's of money and fast cars. That's having no money and no cars.

Here we go...Maybe it is due to poor education and bad parenting?

[Costa Fierro]

It was vastly weakened in Northern Europe. And pointing out corrupt the popes were was a good thing.

Did it change anything? No. For all intents and purposes, the Catholic Church is still an inherently corrupt organization.

[Distruzio]

Except that is a load of shit. The vast majority of Muslims in France live in the disadvantaged and poor suburbs of the major cities. 60% of all prisoners in France are Muslim.

That's not having lot's of money and fast cars. That's having no money and no cars.

Here we go...Maybe it is due to poor education and bad parenting?

...wait... which is it? Are they privileged or under-privileged?

... or are you conceding?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Why can I not figure out what the sauce from the Halal vendors was

I know!

Also idk how prevalent the idea of "halal" meat is, but afaik most meats you buy at the grocery store are already halal. I don't think that it has to be ritually slaughtered or whatever to "be halal," but my ex-husband did.

I believe it does have to be ritually slaughtered. Either way, I won't purchase meat except from the local Muslim butcher. He knows his shit. Not to mention his wife is always pushing fantastic recipes on me.

...maybe one day I'll take the time to visit service with them?

Going to a masjid is a very nice experience. It's so serene and warm.
Which one do they go to? I haven't been to the one down here in GA where I am living.

[The Alma Mater]

*sigh*

Such conclusions could be dispelled if more folk tried Halal meats. So damned good.

Why can I not figure out what the sauce from the Halal vendors was

Also idk how prevalent the idea of "halal" meat is, but afaik most meats you buy at the grocery store are already halal. I don't think that it has to be ritually slaughtered or whatever to "be halal," but my ex-husband did.

It is likely that almost none of the meat found in western grocery stores is halal. Not only because the method of slaughter, but also because being halal officially requires the animal to have had a decent life. The overwhelming majority of meat is from the bio-industry and produced through intensive animal farming.

[Costa Fierro]

Here we go...Maybe it is due to poor education and bad parenting?

No. Systematic racism and alienation. An African immigrant in France who is Christian is twice as likely to get a job as someone who is Muslim. The vast majority of those living in France's banlieues are Arabs. High unemployment and large amount of poverty do very little to endear the current generations of Muslims living in France to completely integrate into mainstream society.

And this is before we get to the widespread belief of Muslims that laïcité is being used to attack Islam. Not only this, 70% of French people believe that Islam is not compatible with French society.

[American California]

It was vastly weakened in Northern Europe. And pointing out corrupt the popes were was a good thing.

Did it change anything? No. For all intents and purposes, the Catholic Church is still an inherently corrupt organization.

What do you mean? It started a whole Counter-Reformation to purge the Church of a lot of the bad stuff. Don't get me wrong, I am pretty anti-Catholic, but surely you must recognize that the Reformation was a net good for both Protestants and Catholics (at least morally). The Church lost power, and wasn't as corrupt as it was, the Protestant questioning of Church doctrine would serve as precedents for later questioning of religious authority.

[The Alma Mater]

Here we go...Maybe it is due to poor education and bad parenting?

No. Systematic racism and alienation. An African immigrant in France who is Christian is twice as likely to get a job as someone who is Muslim. The vast majority of those living in France's banlieues are Arabs. High unemployment and large amount of poverty do very little to endear the current generations of Muslims living in France to completely integrate into mainstream society.

And this is before we get to the widespread belief of Muslims that laïcité is being used to attack Islam. Not only this, 70% of French people believe that Islam is not compatible with French society.

How do other minorities fare ? Similar crime and poverty figures, or do the muslims really stand out ?
In the Netherlands it is the latter. More specifically - the Moroccans stand out. The Turks do relatively fine.

[Master Shake]

Here we go...Maybe it is due to poor education and bad parenting?

...wait... which is it? Are they privileged or under-privileged?

... or are you conceding?

To be precise not all muslims in France are poor. What about the muslims doctors and other people of the privileged ...?

To be fair I'm not conceding, but I am ignorant about French society....

[Sun Wukong]

Then maybe you joined the wrong club.



Which is about all you can do. But it is not something that happens enough.

I didn't join the club, the club joined me.

Sounds painful.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

...wait... which is it? Are they privileged or under-privileged?

... or are you conceding?

To be precise not all muslims in France are poor. What about the muslims doctors and other people of the privileged ...?

To be fair I'm not conceding, but I am ignorant about French society....

Then why the fuck did you make a statement that all Muslims in France are rich and drive nice cars

[West Aurelia]

Yes, Fundamentalists are the problem. Fundamentalists of ALL faiths are a problem.

I think faith in general is the problem. Moderates of religion have a history of not necessarily condemning their own fundamentalists.

Why do moderates have a responsibilty for condemning fundamentalists?