Are All Men Created Equal?

[Flyover]

The term "equal" was never meant to be literal.
Obviously, some people were born with things that will make their life easier or harder compared to others. Pointing this out is not clever. Everybody knows that.

"Equal" was always meant to mean they were equal in society and before the law, so that the kid born with cancer isn't treated worse by the law for some arbitrary reason; or being born a girl isn't equal to being a 2nd class citizen.

Still working on getting there.

[Nuwe Suid Afrika]

1) Or, as the other person said, there is hopelessly inadequate education infrastructure in their area, or they had no ability for education; take, for instance, countries where child-labor is common; these children are unable to get any education at all.

If there is a school in the area, they can receive proper education. However, in places where there is child labor, it is understandable if a child can not get the education he or she needs.

2) You don't get to hand-pick groups in the real world, so the example is silly.

Two families competing? Or two schools?

You can hand-pick groups in surveys. It's done all the time.

[United Marxist Nations]

1) Or, as the other person said, there is hopelessly inadequate education infrastructure in their area, or they had no ability for education; take, for instance, countries where child-labor is common; these children are unable to get any education at all.

If there is a school in the area, they can receive proper education. However, in places where there is child labor, it is understandable if a child can not get the education he or she needs.

2) You don't get to hand-pick groups in the real world, so the example is silly.

Two families competing? Or two schools?

You can hand-pick groups in surveys. It's done all the time.

1) Not all education is equal; schools can have shit funding, shit teachers, etc.

2) Two groups. You were talking about the 'aspects' of each group, which seems to imply culture. Moreover, any large group has subgroups within it that are less or more skilled. For example, Country A has a higher GDP than Country B, but both still have a large amount of poverty.

[Othelos]

We're equal under the law, which is what Thomas Jefferson was referring to.

[Hladgos]

Stephen Hawking was born physically ill to the point where doctors thought he wouldn't make it a year. Now look at him. One of the most intelligent human beings who has ever lived on this planet. Every person is born with the same capability to be great, maybe not in the same way, but everyone can be amazing in their own way.

[Nuwe Suid Afrika]

If there is a school in the area, they can receive proper education. However, in places where there is child labor, it is understandable if a child can not get the education he or she needs.



Two families competing? Or two schools?

You can hand-pick groups in surveys. It's done all the time.

1) Not all education is equal; schools can have shit funding, shit teachers, etc.

But if a student from Group A and Group B attend the same school with poor funding and poor teachers, the student from Group A is more likely to prosper.

2) Two groups. You were talking about the 'aspects' of each group, which seems to imply culture. Moreover, any large group has subgroups within it that are less or more skilled. For example, Country A has a higher GDP than Country B, but both still have a large amount of poverty.

The groups are implied to have the same upbringing in the same country, with the same age, sex, and race. These people from the selected groups would grow up in the same country, whether it be a crime ridden hole with child labor, or one of the richest countries in the world in one of the richest cities. The only difference is genetic, which defines why they are not equal.

[United Marxist Nations]

1) Not all education is equal; schools can have shit funding, shit teachers, etc.

But if a student from Group A and Group B attend the same school with poor funding and poor teachers, the student from Group A is more likely to prosper.

2) Two groups. You were talking about the 'aspects' of each group, which seems to imply culture. Moreover, any large group has subgroups within it that are less or more skilled. For example, Country A has a higher GDP than Country B, but both still have a large amount of poverty.

The groups are implied to have the same upbringing in the same country, with the same age, sex, and race. These people from the selected groups would grow up in the same country, whether it be a crime ridden hole with child labor, or one of the richest countries in the world in one of the richest cities. The only difference is genetic, which defines why they are not equal.

1) How do you know that a student from Group B won't do better?

2) You haven't even defined what this group is, so you can't say the difference is simply genetic.

[Sun Wukong]

You're all equally inferior to monkeys.

[-Ebola-]

All men are created equal in the sense that they are entitled to equal rights, but they are not equal in the sense of their abilities or usefulness. Some people have a genetic disorder that prevents me from infecting them.

[Infected Mushroom]

No.

We are not created equal.

Some people are smarter, faster, stronger, healthier, more beautiful, more gifted, more privileged.

The US Constitution authors were full of it...

[Infected Mushroom]

Some people are just bad at everything. Some men are just better than others.

Some people hardly need to work at all and they easily become as skilled as Jaime Lannister.

Others can work all they want and they'll still never become more then Lancel Lannisters.

People are not equal. Its not fair.

[The Conez Imperium]

All men are created equal in the sense that they are entitled to equal rights, but they are not equal in the sense of their abilities or usefulness. Some people have a genetic disorder that prevents me from infecting them.

Its not a disorder, its a gift.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Of course not. As has already been stated, the phrase refers to equal treatment under the law, and equal rights under the law.

[New DeCapito]

Biologically, we are not equal. We are different because we have different genes and live in different environments and so forth.
Socially, we are equal. We have equal rights, and should be treated the same under the eyes of the law. Don't give me that 'some are more equal than others' shit.

[Aurinsula]

In the Declaration of Independence, it states that all men were created equal, and those words illustrated by Jefferson would have a lasting effect on America, and to a larger extent, the entire world. The idea that we are all born equal has been ingrained in numerous societies across the world, and many people indeed believe such a value. Many people today believe that we are all born equal, and that nobody is inherently superior or inferior to another.

However, are we really born equal? Some people are born with heritable diseases, which puts them at a disadvantage, others are born with defects, which puts them at a disadvantage, some are born with genes that makes them taller, or genes that better pertain to modern beauty standards than others. Does that make humans unequal?

No, the notion that all men were created equal is fallacious. When we were born, we are given a set of genes which will determine our future, and that would make us susceptible to some things, resilient to others, and give us a set of advantages and disadvantages. Some people are born taller than others, others are born smarter than others, and all of these will inevitably create differences and genetic inequality. If one was born with down syndrome, how are they equal when they have a set of disadvantages, such as a very high chance of low IQ, or lack of many interpersonal skills that are persistent in those without the syndrome. That child with down syndrome, as sad and harsh as it is, is unequal to those without down syndrome.

In conclusion, we are not created equal, we are not born on the same level. Some are better than us, and some are worse than us, but that does not warrant for laws that treat people differently, as it is tyrannical and morally repugnant to undertake such actions.

Will you do me a favor, Coldwater, since it seems you believe that some people are better than others? I want you to write the following phrase, honestly.

"I am not as good as other people - people who are smarter, stronger, swifter, taller, better-looking, and of sounder mind than me. These people are better than I am, deserve better things than I do, deserve more respect than I do, and am more worthy of love than I am."

Write that for me, since you seem to believe that it's true. Otherwise, explain how it isn't true.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

We're all pretty much equal when we're born. We each spend like two years completely powerless and dependent.

I like the moral model where you should try to design a world that you would be OK with living in, if you didn't know where you would fit into society.

[Maldovania]

We were born equal, not idendical. .

A child born to a king and queen is not equal to a child born to a peasant.

[Halnatorum]

Some are born just to die minutes/days later (not counting death as the result of human intervention).

Some are born so severely handicapped that they will be dependent on other people for the rest of their lives.

Some are born with an addiction they will have to fight for the rest of their life.

Some are born with an inherent gift for music, sports, intellectual pursuits.

Some are born that will never have the intellectual capacity of more than a child.

Some are born to parents so wealthy that they never have to worry about finances ever, nor will thier children, or grandchildren barring stupidity destroying the wealth.

Some are born to parents so poor that the child will starve more than it won't and will be forced to drop out of school just to provide the basic necessities such as food.

Are all humans are created equal? If you can yes then, I have a billion dollar land deal for you. It is beach front property in the middle of the Sahara.

[The Wolven League]

Haha, the answer to the title is a definite "no". There are peasants and commoners who have no power whatsoever who must do common work, and there are statesmen who control the government. Not everyone is equal; the common people have a ruler that they follow.

[Halnatorum]

'some are more equal than others' shit.

You are correct, some are not more equal. That is as logically flawed as a person being half-caucasian, half-indian, and half-asian.

The fact is some people are better than others be it biological, financial, or whatever superiority and others are inferior.

[Republic of Coldwater]

In the Declaration of Independence, it states that all men were created equal, and those words illustrated by Jefferson would have a lasting effect on America, and to a larger extent, the entire world. The idea that we are all born equal has been ingrained in numerous societies across the world, and many people indeed believe such a value. Many people today believe that we are all born equal, and that nobody is inherently superior or inferior to another.

However, are we really born equal? Some people are born with heritable diseases, which puts them at a disadvantage, others are born with defects, which puts them at a disadvantage, some are born with genes that makes them taller, or genes that better pertain to modern beauty standards than others. Does that make humans unequal?

No, the notion that all men were created equal is fallacious. When we were born, we are given a set of genes which will determine our future, and that would make us susceptible to some things, resilient to others, and give us a set of advantages and disadvantages. Some people are born taller than others, others are born smarter than others, and all of these will inevitably create differences and genetic inequality. If one was born with down syndrome, how are they equal when they have a set of disadvantages, such as a very high chance of low IQ, or lack of many interpersonal skills that are persistent in those without the syndrome. That child with down syndrome, as sad and harsh as it is, is unequal to those without down syndrome.

In conclusion, we are not created equal, we are not born on the same level. Some are better than us, and some are worse than us, but that does not warrant for laws that treat people differently, as it is tyrannical and morally repugnant to undertake such actions.

Will you do me a favor, Coldwater, since it seems you believe that some people are better than others? I want you to write the following phrase, honestly.

"I am not as good as other people - people who are smarter, stronger, swifter, taller, better-looking, and of sounder mind than me. These people are better than I am, deserve better things than I do, deserve more respect than I do, and am more worthy of love than I am."

Write that for me, since you seem to believe that it's true. Otherwise, explain how it isn't true.

I am not as good as other people - people who are smarter, stronger, swifter, taller, better-looking, and of sounder mind than me. These people are better than I am. However, this does not mean that they should get any special privilege before the law, or that I should be discriminated before the law nor does it mean that I should be marginalized and not given an opportunity to compete with them, or that I should be barred from working and befriending them, or that they should deserve more respect for having better genes, or deserving of more love for having better genes.

[The Archregimancy]

Have we really built a five page thread out of a misrepresentation of the US Declaration of Independence's statement that 'all men are created equal'?

Does anyone really think that Jefferson and Franklin*, of all people, were making a literal statement that all men are wholly equal as opposed to a figurative statement about equality of certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - and that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Compare this to the 1789 French Declaration of Rights:

"Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only upon the general good"

And George Mason's May 1776 draft of the Virginia Declaration of Rights:

"all Men are born equally free and independant, and have certain inherent natural Rights, of which they can not by any Compact, deprive or divest their Posterity; among which are the Enjoyment of Life and Liberty, with the Means of acquiring and possessing Property, and pursueing and obtaining Happiness and Safety".


Really, there's absolutely no ambiguity here. Jefferson and his supporting committee were clearly making a statement about equality of rights and equality under the law. not that all men are literally equal. Any attempt to argue from a premise that in some way assumes otherwise has to rate among the more depressing historical misunderstandings and/or misrepresentations I've seen on NSG.


*The specific phrasing 'all men are created equal' is a Franklin edit of Jefferson's original draft.

[Libacur]

Not all men are created equal though.
Some are born rich.
Some born poor etc.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Have we really built a five page thread out of a misrepresentation of the US Declaration of Independence's statement that 'all men are created equal'?

Does anyone really think that Jefferson and Franklin*, of all people, were making a literal statement that all men are wholly equal as opposed to a figurative statement about equality of certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - and that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Compare this to the 1789 French Declaration of Rights:

"Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only upon the general good"

And George Mason's May 1776 draft of the Virginia Declaration of Rights:

"all Men are born equally free and independant, and have certain inherent natural Rights, of which they can not by any Compact, deprive or divest their Posterity; among which are the Enjoyment of Life and Liberty, with the Means of acquiring and possessing Property, and pursueing and obtaining Happiness and Safety".


Really, there's absolutely no ambiguity here. Jefferson and his supporting committee were clearly making a statement about equality of rights and equality under the law. not that all men are literally equal. Any attempt to argue from a premise that in some way assumes otherwise has to rate among the more depressing historical misunderstandings and/or misrepresentations I've seen on NSG.


*The specific phrasing 'all men are created equal' is a Franklin edit of Jefferson's original draft.

Fair enough, what Franklin/Jefferson wrote was that it was we were equal under the law, but the question still remains: Are we all equal, and should we view others as equals.

[Halnatorum]

Fair enough, what Franklin/Jefferson wrote was that it was we were equal under the law, but the question still remains: Are we all equal, and should we view others as equals.

In theory everyone is equal when it comes to the law.

In practice no one is equal under the law.

People can buy their freedom by paying a fancy lawyer to confuse the jurors.

People are treated differently based on another's personal prejudices.

A gay black male athiest is caught embezzling $50,000.
A straight white male Christian is caught embezzling $50,000.

They committed the exact same crime but do you honestly think that a juror who is straight white male Christian and homophobic will treat them equally?