The Afterlife

[Memell]

There is an afterlife, but definitely not for all, and definitely not the same for all.

[Esternial]

Science has no limits, thus I believe it is a possibility.

It actually does. That's sort of the thing with science.

It tends to strive for pretty well-defined limits.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

But my point is, when life ceases (brain function stops, heart stops, decay begins and all that), there's no evidence of our conscience existing still? Am I right?

Yes, most definitely.

When a computer dies a lot of data is lost too. Maybe, like computers, it's possible to recover a good chunk of data, but brains have the added downside of rotting and we don't yet possess the tech to salvage our own fleshy hard drives, nor do we fully understand how this data - our consciousness - can be interpreted.

That was my understanding, yes. Since perhaps one could say that our consciousness is very much tied to our brain function, once there ceases to be such, once there's death and decay, our thoughts cease to exist too.

[Pensalum]

It is very confusing, yes. Trying to mix some of the philosophical ruminations said here with the biochemical background is leaving my brain in a state of existential angst.

I understand

As for the philosophical rumination, I think a lot of it stems from Dualism. Many people tend to think that the body has a physical and non-physical aspect. Personally, it seems like cognitive dissonance. Consciousness can seem non-physical at times, but once scientists began to explore cognition and neurology, and how the brain produces consciousness, Dualism lost its credibility.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It is very confusing, yes. Trying to mix some of the philosophical ruminations said here with the biochemical background is leaving my brain in a state of existential angst.

I understand

As for the philosophical rumination, I think a lot of it stems from Dualism. Many people tend to think that the body has a physical and non-physical aspect. Personally, it seems like cognitive dissonance. Consciousness can seem non-physical at times, but once scientists began to explore cognition and neurology, and how the brain produces consciousness, Dualism lost its credibility.

Could it be this whole notion of the soul? The idea that we have a physical body and then a non-corporeal one called the soul? Could that account for the dualism?

[Esternial]

It is very confusing, yes. Trying to mix some of the philosophical ruminations said here with the biochemical background is leaving my brain in a state of existential angst.

I understand :p

As for the philosophical rumination, I think a lot of it stems from Dualism. Many people tend to think that the body has a physical and non-physical aspect. Personally, it seems like cognitive dissonance. Consciousness can seem non-physical at times, but once scientists began to explore cognition and neurology, and how the brain produces consciousness, Dualism lost its credibility.

I think a lot of people underestimate the complexity of our brain.

[Herargon]

Science has no limits, thus I believe it is a possibility.

It actually does. That's sort of the thing with science.

It tends to strive for pretty well-defined limits.

It does not have limits. There could be a parallel universe where there are no psychical laws or something like that. But I was more talking about the idea of science being able to become that advanced that it is possible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Last time I recently thought about this and found that we could try to remake literally every human possible (includes all possible saved brain pulses AKA memories), and someday we then could end up seeing Obama reappearing, including all his memories feom his campaigns, speeches and wars. This is a way of how we could end up simply re-existing/respawning again due to science.

Thanks, Obama, I guess.

/europeanbtw

[Pensalum]

The energy associated with consciousness is chemical energy that is converted into electrical energy which carries signals from neuron to neuron, and then is converted to heat energy. The energy is not lost, but it also is not the consciousness in the same way that the paint is not the painting. If a painting is soaked in water all of the paint can still be present, but the painting is destroyed.

You are a pattern of things, not a single indivisible thing. When the energy stops flowing in that pattern, that's it. There's no evidence of anything preserving the patterns of our minds after we die.

Hopefully they'll invent some sort of way to preserve our brains consciousnesses within my lifetime. Preferably in jars filled with a green liquid.

[Auroya]

Give me some proper scientific evidence that there's an afterlife, then I'll believe there is one.

I know it's a comforting thought for us, but our preferences don't count.

[Pensalum]

I understand

As for the philosophical rumination, I think a lot of it stems from Dualism. Many people tend to think that the body has a physical and non-physical aspect. Personally, it seems like cognitive dissonance. Consciousness can seem non-physical at times, but once scientists began to explore cognition and neurology, and how the brain produces consciousness, Dualism lost its credibility.

Could it be this whole notion of the soul? The idea that we have a physical body and then a non-corporeal one called the soul? Could that account for the dualism?

That's basically what Dualism is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)

It's a way of explaining 'souls' pseudo-scientifically. Rene Descartes believed there was a part of the brain which transmitted sensory information into a non-corporeal form.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Could it be this whole notion of the soul? The idea that we have a physical body and then a non-corporeal one called the soul? Could that account for the dualism?

That's basically what Dualism is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)

It's a way of explaining 'souls' pseudo-scientifically. Rene Descartes believed there was a part of the brain which transmitted sensory information into a non-corporeal form.

I will admit that when I took philosophy at uni and we covered Descartes, I was ready to defenestrate my professor. I found Descartes hard to understand.

[Esternial]

It actually does. That's sort of the thing with science.

It tends to strive for pretty well-defined limits.

It does not have limits. There could be a parallel universe where there are no psychical laws or something like that. But I was more talking about the idea of science being able to become that advanced that it is possible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Last time I recently thought about this and found that we could try to remake literally every human possible, and someday we then could end up seeing Obama reappearing.

Thanks, Obama, I guess.

/europeanbtw

It's a nice idea, but still just an idea.

[Solaray]

I dunno. I believe there is an afterlife.

[Pensalum]

That's basically what Dualism is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)

It's a way of explaining 'souls' pseudo-scientifically. Rene Descartes believed there was a part of the brain which transmitted sensory information into a non-corporeal form.

I will admit that when I took philosophy at uni and we covered Descartes, I was ready to defenestrate my professor. I found Descartes hard to understand.

I agree, though I think he has a very pleasant name.

[Liriena]

I do not believe in an afterlife, but I do sometimes find myself wishing that there was one, either in the form of reincarnation, or as a spirit of some sort that could remain in this Universe, because I'd love to have more time to explore the Universe around me, and I'd like to get the chance to experience human life again.

[United Russian Soviet States]

I believe in the afterlife.

[Mavorpen]

What's intriguing about NDEs is not so much what people say, but how universally similar it is to the stories of other people who experience NDEs.

And this automatically discredits them. Notice how you didn't use the word "identical." Rather, you used the word "similar" there. There's a reason for that.

There's always a white light and an "outer-body" feeling which most people describe as the soul temporarily leaving the body. Yes, this could be discredited as a final bought of dopamine-induced semi-consciousness as the many chemicals comprising the brain begin to coagulate, but I think it's something more.[ You could ask a Canadian and an Indian about the NDE they experienced, and both would mention the white light and outer-body experience.

So to expand upon what I said above, this is actually pretty damning evidence this whole NDE thing is bullshit from a supernatural standpoint. Most people's brains are going to react the same on the fundamental level given certain stimuli. That includes dying. Thus it's natural that there are core threads that are pervasive in people's experiences with NDE's. The problem though is that if there's an actual afterlife, it'd be pretty weird for people's experiences to differ so significantly past a basic "I saw a white light and it felt like I was lifted out of my body." Some people see a tunnel, some people don't. Some people see "Jesus," some people don't. Some people find themselves in random places like in helicopters floating up into the sky, and others don't. If there was an afterlife, it isn't very consistent.

And that's why scientists don't take supernatural explanations seriously, because we have a simpler explanation that actually makes more sense. If it's nothing more than the brain reacting to death, then it makes sense for most people to have the same core experience while all of the layers on top of that being significantly different, because while our brains are very much similar, they're also fairly different as well. It also explains why some people who "come back from death" don't have an NDE at all. Sure, you can make up excuses for these problems, like "Gawd just didn't want them to see Heaven," or "Gawd wants us to have our own unique experiences," but you're just piling assumptions upon assumptions to save an idea that you've already convinced yourself is true. It's not scientific and frankly it's a sign that there's no actual legitimate basis for this stuff.

What's even more intriguing is that in some cases, people describe watching their own surgery take place, but from a bird's-eye view. After their operations, some have even described the entire layout of the operation room,

This is of course interesting, but again, this is actually pretty damning evidence that the supernatural experience is bogus. If it were true, one would expect there to be more than "some cases." Regardless, there was an interesting study that researched this, but unfortunately, it didn't provide any actual evidence of there being an actual soul or afterlife. To quickly summarize their methodology, what they basically did was place an image hidden from a normal view that they couldn't have possibly seen unless they actually did leave their body and "float" out of their body with their soul.

The kicker? Not a single person actually saw or reported seeing or having a memory of the image that was hidden from normal view. Basically what this meant is that despite these people having a NDE and supposedly being removed from their body and seeing the operating room with their "soul," not a single one of them could identify an image that they should have been able to see.

right down to the medical equipment that was used, things they could not possibly have known during their comatose state.

Actually, the medical equipment used is extremely easy to explain. Most people have a decent idea of what goes on in a medical room from television shows and other experiences that allows them to essentially "guess" as to what happened. You could of course ask why they would have a memory of seeing the emergency room in the first place, but that also isn't that difficult to explain. The human brain is actually pretty easy to trick.

For example, ask someone to spell "stop" 10 times fast, then ask them "what does a green light mean?" Chances are they will say "stop." That's called priming, and is basically when you stimulate someone's brain in a certain way that affects future reactions to future stimuli. Memory works in a similar way because it's reconstructive. If you've watched medical related shows or even movies where people are taken to emergency rooms, when you've actually been in one yourself and been the one being operated on, it's very possible for those memories of watching those events on a screen to be reconstructed into actual memories that you believe you've experienced.

The only way you could begin to attribute this to any supernatural explanation would be if people recollected these things on the order of perfect accuracy with a 100% success rate. Given that the accuracy rates aren't large at all, it's much simpler, and more likely, that there is no supernatural activity going on,

Things they could not possibly have known, unless, of course, they had a soul, and the afterlife truly does exist.

Like I just said, you'd need a pretty much perfect accuracy rate for this claim to even be remotely be taken seriously.

I could add more evidence aside from NDEs to explain why I believe in an afterlife, but I'm curious about your opinions. So, what do you think?

You haven't really added any "evidence." You've only made claims with utterly no actual substantiation, which is funny because there is a good bit of scientific research that's studying this topic. Heck, I even referred to one above that you likely heard about through a random site that misrepresented the study's findings. The fact that you've made claims without any grounds leads me to believe that this is nothing more than a case of someone pretending like they know enough about this topic through silly pseudoscientific sites to actually draw a conclusion that the best explanation is a supernatural one.

Sorry, but you're a long way from providing anything close to evidence that's enough to actually draw such a conclusion.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I will admit that when I took philosophy at uni and we covered Descartes, I was ready to defenestrate my professor. I found Descartes hard to understand.

I agree, though I think he has a very pleasant name.

Heh, sort of, yes.

Now, he thought our brains fed information to a non-corporeal form of ourselves? Like backups of information we save into the hard drive of a computer?

[Ostroeuropa]

No, but I occasionally hope.

*banking on equestria.*

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

No, but I occasionally hope.

*banking on equestria.*

Honestly, I see Equestria as more like what the world would be like if it was run by an actual benevolent deity.

It works as a rather interesting juxtaposition.

[Herargon]

It does not have limits. There could be a parallel universe where there are no psychical laws or something like that. But I was more talking about the idea of science being able to become that advanced that it is possible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Last time I recently thought about this and found that we could try to remake literally every human possible, and someday we then could end up seeing Obama reappearing.

Thanks, Obama, I guess.

/europeanbtw

It's a nice idea, but still just an idea.

An interesting thought for me, nonetheless. I hope we will once be able to undo the death if these people want it... for the sake of love and to let people who were killed young due to horrible diseases, awful wars or any of those miserable things, live their life without that again.. In peace.

[Ostroeuropa]

No, but I occasionally hope.

*banking on equestria.*

Honestly, I see Equestria as more like what the world would be like if it was run by an actual benevolent deity.

It works as a rather interesting juxtaposition.

I dunno dude. Theres some fucked up stuff in Equestria.

[Herargon]

Honestly, I see Equestria as more like what the world would be like if it was run by an actual benevolent deity.

It works as a rather interesting juxtaposition.

I dunno dude. Theres some fucked up stuff in Equestria.

Who or what is Equestria if I may ask?

[Esternial]

It's a nice idea, but still just an idea.

An interesting thought for me, nonetheless. I hope we will once be able to undo the death if these people want it...

Most certainly, but don't get your hopes up too high. Live your life in the present and spend it well, either for yourself, others or by contributing to humanity as a whole.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I dunno dude. Theres some fucked up stuff in Equestria.

Who or what is Equestria if I may ask?

The world of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic.