The Afterlife

[Margno]

I don't usually take NDE's into consideration that much, my belief in an afterlife is more so based on philosophy. I mean, one or two very close friends of mine have had NDE's and base their beliefs on them, and it's clearly real to them, but I guess I don't know how many implications those experiences have for a third party.

[Eastern Equestria]

Consciousness is Information which is energy and thus eternal

if conciousness is eternal then upon death of the body that information necessarily persists, it may become unstable and suffer entropy but it does not suddenly cease to exist

Which it isn't. Consciousness basically boils down to certain chemical and electrical reactions, which stop when we die. Game over, enter initials.

Yep. This.

[Sanctissima]

Yes, this could be discredited as a final bought of dopamine-induced semi-consciousness as the many chemicals comprising the brain begin to coagulate, but I think it's something more. You could ask a Canadian and an Indian about the NDE they experienced, and both would mention the white light and outer-body experience.

If you asked a Canadian and an Indian that have both had the flu what they experienced they would both mention a similar account. There's no argument here.

What's even more intriguing is that in some cases, people describe watching their own surgery take place, but from a bird's-eye view. After their operations, some have even described the entire layout of the operation room, right down to the medical equipment that was used, things they could not possibly have known during their comatose state. Things they could not possibly have known, unless, of course, they had a soul, and the afterlife truly does exist.

Even if, theoretically, an out-of-body experience exists and is scientifically validated, it wouldn't prove the existence of an afterlife. There are claims of OBE's during one's lifetime, thus there is no direct correlated between an OBE and an afterlife. For all we know this "soul" leaves the body and withers away like the warmth left by a flame that has just died.

Ah, but one hippy on LSD probably won't have the same hallucinations as another hippy on LSD. Yes, a bad analogy, but you get the point. NDEs are peculiar in that they have such universally similar elements. At a time when the brain is going haywire, the probability that every single human's brain is evolved to portray a white light and outer-body experience seems unlikely.

As for OBEs, the thing about them is that, although we could assume it's just energy slowly dissipating, what doesn't make sense is that some people can remember their OBE so clearly, like recounting all the medical instruments in an operation room. This hardly sounds like an unstable manifestation of energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_%28author%29

Here's a wikipedia article on a neurosurgeon who experienced an NDE (and an OBE for that matter). Basically, he suffered a massive influx of E-Coli bacteria to his brain, which by all means, should have reduced all neural activity to a near zero. Instead, he experienced something akin to his soul leaving his body.

[Wisconsin9]

If you asked a Canadian and an Indian that have both had the flu what they experienced they would both mention a similar account. There's no argument here.


Even if, theoretically, an out-of-body experience exists and is scientifically validated, it wouldn't prove the existence of an afterlife. There are claims of OBE's during one's lifetime, thus there is no direct correlated between an OBE and an afterlife. For all we know this "soul" leaves the body and withers away like the warmth left by a flame that has just died.

Ah, but one hippy on LSD probably won't have the same hallucinations as another hippy on LSD. Yes, a bad analogy, but you get the point. NDEs are peculiar in that they have such universally similar elements. At a time when the brain is going haywire, the probability that every single human's brain is evolved to portray a white light and outer-body experience seems unlikely.

As for OBEs, the thing about them is that, although we could assume it's just energy slowly dissipating, what doesn't make sense is that some people can remember their OBE so clearly, like recounting all the medical instruments in an operation room. This hardly sounds like an unstable manifestation of energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_%28author%29

Here's a wikipedia article on a neurosurgeon who experienced an NDE (and an OBE for that matter). Basically, he suffered a massive influx of E-Coli bacteria to his brain, which by all means, should have reduced all neural activity to a near zero. Instead, he experienced something akin to his soul leaving his body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_%28author%29#Criticism_and_reaction
"In a wide-ranging investigation of Alexander's story and medical background, Esquire magazine reported (August 2013 issue) that prior to the publication of Proof of Heaven, Alexander had been terminated or suspended from multiple hospital positions, and had been the subject of several malpractice lawsuits, including at least two involving the alteration of medical records to cover up a medical error."

He sounds like an incompetent liar who should have his license revoked.

[Esternial]

Ah, but one hippy on LSD probably won't have the same hallucinations as another hippy on LSD. Yes, a bad analogy, but you get the point. NDEs are peculiar in that they have such universally similar elements. At a time when the brain is going haywire, the probability that every single human's brain is evolved to portray a white light and outer-body experience seems unlikely.

We're not talking about LSD or any kind of drugs. We're talking about a symptom. For some reason, you're surprised that people exhibited the same symptom triggered by the same underlying cause, especially when these people are so deprived of stimuli. It's almost the perfect closed environment, so why wouldn't they both experience the same thing? Think of it as the default response to that internal chemical stimuli.

When you take drugs you've still very conscious, so your response varies heavily because you can still perceive external stimuli and are still capable of conscious thought. When going through a NDE those influences are virtually absent.

As for OBEs, the thing about them is that, although we could assume it's just energy slowly dissipating, what doesn't make sense is that some people can remember their OBE so clearly, like recounting all the medical instruments in an operation room. This hardly sounds like an unstable manifestation of energy.

You're building upon the assumption that it's just energy, while frankly we don't know anything about an OBE, let alone if it's really something that exists. At the end of the day, what we're left with are a lot of assumptions and vague shreds of evidence that can support quite a few hypotheses, and all of them are shady at best.

[Threlizdun]

No, I don't believe in an afterlife as there is no evidence for one. NDE's cannot be taken into consideration since we are well aware that such experiences often result in hallucinations. You are not seeing angels or gods; you're tripping balls. I have had an NDE, and it completely altered my perception of time and gave me an out of body experience, but considering I've had the same effect with extreme anxiety and drugs, there is no reason for me to think of them as anything other than what they were, altered states of consciousness.

[Cetacea]

Consciousness is Information which is energy and thus eternal

if conciousness is eternal then upon death of the body that information necessarily persists, it may become unstable and suffer entropy but it does not suddenly cease to exist

Interesting. So you believe that one's consciousness persists after death, but it would be too unstable without the body to remain fully intact?

yes. E=MC2 has already established that everything is energy including information.
Studies of the brain indicate that a single thought triggers multiple parts of the brain architecture. I believe that our neurons generate an electromagnetic network- a field- and it is here that "consciousness" resides. Our consciousness carries information that is generated both by the chemical-electrical messages of our nervous system and also picked up from the world around us -we are all nodes within a vast continuous flow of information.

This Consciousness-field is what we call the Mind and it is distinct from the brain/nervous system. Nonetheless it is the nervous systems architecture and neuron activity that creates patterns and keeps our conciousness stable. Upon death these brain patterns are no longer available so our conciousness becomes unstable.

Thats where things get really interesting for although it might just dissipates into the cosmos - oblivion - we must account for other conscious minds and their interaction. Thats where issues of quantum entanglement and persistence come into play. In otherwords there may be ties which cause a conciousness to persist in an area - it may be ancestral memories, but sometimes it could be hauntings or even reincarnation (which I have no opinion on). Really what the afterlife looks like I don't know, but I do beleive that conciousness persist and although unstable and generally formless can still affect living minds

Consciousness basically boils down to certain chemical and electrical reactions, which stop when we die. Game over, enter initials.

a cell can process information using basic chemical transfer. It therefore makes no sense for cells to form neurons which are far more complex but far slower than cell proteins.
The mechanical view of neurons also fails to account for non-computational processes in the brain ie emotion, imagination and unpredicatability

[Esternial]

a cell can process information using basic chemical transfer. It therefore makes no sense for cells to form neurons which are far more complex but far slower than cell proteins.
The mechanical view of neurons also fails to account for non-computational processes in the brain ie emotion, imagination and unpredicatability

Pray do tell how action potentials are slower at transferring a signal.

Please add as much detail as you feel comfortable with. I know a thing or two about cellular biology.

[Pensalum]

Consciousness is Information which is energy and thus eternal

if conciousness is eternal then upon death of the body that information necessarily persists, it may become unstable and suffer entropy but it does not suddenly cease to exist

You're right, the energy involved in the neural processes that generate our concept of consciousness won't be destroyed after death, it will leave our bodies and travel out into the atmosphere, or wherever else it goes.

The consciousness will be destroyed, however. Consciousness, as we understand it (and I'm no neurologist) occurs as neurons fire in the brain, triggering chemical and electrical reactions or whatever. I think it may be in the frontal lobe, the part of the brain dedicated to personality, but don't quote me on that. After death, the neural processes cease, and so too would conscious along with the rest of the brain. Consciousness is no different than sensation, perception, locomotion, etc. It's just a part of the body.

I know it's hard to understand. I have trouble understanding. I think that has to do with the nature of consciousness, we perceive our mind and thoughts being separate from the body, when really they aren't.

[Esternial]

Consciousness is Information which is energy and thus eternal

if conciousness is eternal then upon death of the body that information necessarily persists, it may become unstable and suffer entropy but it does not suddenly cease to exist

You're right, the energy involved in the neural processes that generate our concept of consciousness won't be destroyed after death, it will leave our bodies and travel out into the atmosphere, or wherever else it goes.

The consciousness will be destroyed, however. Consciousness, as we understand it (and I'm no neurologist) occurs as neurons fire in the brain, triggering chemical and electrical reactions or whatever. I think it may be in the frontal lobe, the part of the brain dedicated to personality, but don't quote me on that. After death, the neural processes cease, and so too would conscious along with the rest of the brain. Consciousness is no different than sensation, perception, locomotion, etc. It's just a part of the body.

I know it's hard to understand. I have trouble understanding. I think that has to do with the nature of consciousness, we perceive our mind and thoughts being separate from the body, when really they aren't.

Whu.

What even?

Guys, everyone. The "energy" that is generated within our brains is the result of an elektrochemical potential that is actively established through ion pumps. This signal travels through subsequently activated ion pumps further down the line and thus propagating that signal.

Elektrochemical signals in our brains vanish when these ions travel back and establish an equilibrium between the exterior and the cell's interior environment. We're talking concentrations of positively charged ions. Not some jedi-midicholorians magical and incredibly vague term such as "energy"

I get the impression some of you base your theories on some very unstable assumptions.

[Metapolis]

Given that people have personality changes when they suffer brain damage I think disproves the notion of an ethereal soul. If there is no soul there is no afterlife.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You're right, the energy involved in the neural processes that generate our concept of consciousness won't be destroyed after death, it will leave our bodies and travel out into the atmosphere, or wherever else it goes.

The consciousness will be destroyed, however. Consciousness, as we understand it (and I'm no neurologist) occurs as neurons fire in the brain, triggering chemical and electrical reactions or whatever. I think it may be in the frontal lobe, the part of the brain dedicated to personality, but don't quote me on that. After death, the neural processes cease, and so too would conscious along with the rest of the brain. Consciousness is no different than sensation, perception, locomotion, etc. It's just a part of the body.

I know it's hard to understand. I have trouble understanding. I think that has to do with the nature of consciousness, we perceive our mind and thoughts being separate from the body, when really they aren't.

Whu.

What even?

Guys, everyone. The "energy" that is generated within our brains is the result of an elektrochemical potential that is actively established through ion pumps. This signal travels through subsequently activated ion pumps further down the line and thus propagating that signal.

Elektrochemical signals in our brains vanish when these ions travel back and establish an equilibrium between the exterior and the cell's interior environment. We're talking concentrations of positively charged ions. Not some jedi-midicholorians magical and incredibly vague term such as "energy"

I get the impression some of you base your theories on some very unstable assumptions.

Sounds a bit science fiction-ey too. (not what you said but the post you quoted)

[Esternial]

Whu.

What even?

Guys, everyone. The "energy" that is generated within our brains is the result of an elektrochemical potential that is actively established through ion pumps. This signal travels through subsequently activated ion pumps further down the line and thus propagating that signal.

Elektrochemical signals in our brains vanish when these ions travel back and establish an equilibrium between the exterior and the cell's interior environment. We're talking concentrations of positively charged ions. Not some jedi-midicholorians magical and incredibly vague term such as "energy"

I get the impression some of you base your theories on some very unstable assumptions.

Sounds a bit science fiction-ey too. (not what you said but the post you quoted)

We know quite a bit about the basic cellular biology of our brains, but when you zoom out it gets sketchier. Psychology has historically been a "stab-in-the-dark" kind of science, so studying our own brains and learning more about it is certainly a worthwhile avenue of research, one I hope to pursue if the next two-three years go well enough.

[Pensalum]

You're right, the energy involved in the neural processes that generate our concept of consciousness won't be destroyed after death, it will leave our bodies and travel out into the atmosphere, or wherever else it goes.

The consciousness will be destroyed, however. Consciousness, as we understand it (and I'm no neurologist) occurs as neurons fire in the brain, triggering chemical and electrical reactions or whatever. I think it may be in the frontal lobe, the part of the brain dedicated to personality, but don't quote me on that. After death, the neural processes cease, and so too would conscious along with the rest of the brain. Consciousness is no different than sensation, perception, locomotion, etc. It's just a part of the body.

I know it's hard to understand. I have trouble understanding. I think that has to do with the nature of consciousness, we perceive our mind and thoughts being separate from the body, when really they aren't.

Whu.

What even?

Guys, everyone. The "energy" that is generated within our brains is the result of an elektrochemical potential that is actively established through ion pumps. This signal travels through subsequently activated ion pumps further down the line and thus propagating that signal.

Elektrochemical signals in our brains vanish when these ions travel back and establish an equilibrium between the exterior and the cell's interior environment. We're talking concentrations of positively charged ions. Not some jedi-midicholorians magical and incredibly vague term such as "energy"

I get the impression some of you base your theories on some very unstable assumptions.

I guess I wasn't clear, sorry.

I'm saying that consciousness dies. That the "energy" associated with consciousness isn't destroyed, but it doesn't matter because the body is dead. without the brain, the neurological processes that produce consciousness are nonexistent, regardless of "energy".

I think a lot of the posters have a Dualistic philosophy, which, while interesting, isn't very scientific. Consciousness is not separate from the body.

[Fanosolia]

I generally I'm a person that believes in the afterlife yes, but I'm not sure of it's existence. I adorably won't know until I die or reincarnate or what not or if I can get an obe. I like the astral/ethereal plane theory myself.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Sounds a bit science fiction-ey too. (not what you said but the post you quoted)

We know quite a bit about the basic cellular biology of our brains, but when you zoom out it gets sketchier. Psychology has historically been a "stab-in-the-dark" kind of science, so studying our own brains and learning more about it is certainly a worthwhile avenue of research, one I hope to pursue if the next two-three years go well enough.

But my point is, when life ceases (brain function stops, heart stops, decay begins and all that), there's no evidence of our conscience existing still? Am I right?

[Esternial]

Whu.

What even?

Guys, everyone. The "energy" that is generated within our brains is the result of an elektrochemical potential that is actively established through ion pumps. This signal travels through subsequently activated ion pumps further down the line and thus propagating that signal.

Elektrochemical signals in our brains vanish when these ions travel back and establish an equilibrium between the exterior and the cell's interior environment. We're talking concentrations of positively charged ions. Not some jedi-midicholorians magical and incredibly vague term such as "energy"

I get the impression some of you base your theories on some very unstable assumptions.

I guess I wasn't clear, sorry.

I'm saying that consciousness dies. That the "energy" associated with consciousness isn't destroyed, but it doesn't matter because the body is dead. without the brain, the neurological processes that produce consciousness are nonexistent, regardless of "energy".

I think a lot of the posters have a Dualistic philosophy, which, while interesting, isn't very scientific. Consciousness is not separate from the body.

It is very confusing, yes. Trying to mix some of the philosophical ruminations said here with the biochemical background is leaving my brain in a state of existential angst.

[Pensalum]

~snip~

Sounds a bit science fiction-ey too. (not what you said but the post you quoted)

No. I wasn't clear.

I am saying that consciousness cannot live on after death, because consciousness is a bodily process. When you die, your brain dies, and by extension, your consciousness dies.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Sounds a bit science fiction-ey too. (not what you said but the post you quoted)

No. I wasn't clear.

I am saying that consciousness cannot live on after death, because consciousness is a bodily process. When you die, your brain dies, and by extension, your consciousness dies.

Ok, now that is more like it. Thanks for clarifying.

[The Conez Imperium]

There's no sex in heaven so I'm a bit saddened there. However I will get to see all my friends for all eternity so I can finally play xbox like the good old days

[Pensalum]

We know quite a bit about the basic cellular biology of our brains, but when you zoom out it gets sketchier. Psychology has historically been a "stab-in-the-dark" kind of science, so studying our own brains and learning more about it is certainly a worthwhile avenue of research, one I hope to pursue if the next two-three years go well enough.

But my point is, when life ceases (brain function stops, heart stops, decay begins and all that), there's no evidence of our conscience existing still? Am I right?

Yes, I think.

Consciousness is produced by neurological activity. How can we have neurological activity with a dead brain?

[Sparunica]

“I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” - Banksy

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

The energy associated with consciousness is chemical energy that is converted into electrical energy which carries signals from neuron to neuron, and then is converted to heat energy. The energy is not lost, but it also is not the consciousness in the same way that the paint is not the painting. If a painting is soaked in water all of the paint can still be present, but the painting is destroyed.

You are a pattern of things, not a single indivisible thing. When the energy stops flowing in that pattern, that's it. There's no evidence of anything preserving the patterns of our minds after we die.

[Herargon]

[Serious answer]

Yes, and I trust in it.

If there is a God in the christian sense it exists too.

If there is no god, we will become one in the far future.
Then we might be able to remake everyone that lived up to that point then.
Science has no limits, thus I believe it is a possibility.

[Esternial]

We know quite a bit about the basic cellular biology of our brains, but when you zoom out it gets sketchier. Psychology has historically been a "stab-in-the-dark" kind of science, so studying our own brains and learning more about it is certainly a worthwhile avenue of research, one I hope to pursue if the next two-three years go well enough.

But my point is, when life ceases (brain function stops, heart stops, decay begins and all that), there's no evidence of our conscience existing still? Am I right?

Yes, most definitely.

When a computer dies a lot of data is lost too. Maybe, like computers, it's possible to recover a good chunk of data, but brains have the added downside of rotting and we don't yet possess the tech to salvage our own fleshy hard drives, nor do we fully understand how this data - our consciousness - can be interpreted.