NATION

PASSWORD

Can Religion and Rational thought coexist?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Can Religion and Rational thought coexist?

Yes of course. Faith supports and is supported by rational thought.
137
46%
Yes, but it is a delicate balance. Most cannot be both faithful and rational.
83
28%
Wat?
10
3%
No, faith and rational thought cannot coexist.
25
8%
No, Religious types are by nature irrational.
23
8%
Other, and I will explain in mah Post!
17
6%
 
Total votes : 295

User avatar
Blasted Craigs
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1123
Founded: May 31, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Can Religion and Rational thought coexist?

Postby Blasted Craigs » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:43 pm

My question in plain English.
Religion usually requires one to have faith, to believe in things that are not proven. To have it proven and believe requires no faith, and thus the proven requires no faith, and faith is a cornerstone to almost all religious practices. Rational thought requires one to have proof to state something is true or false, and on a lack of proof, a thing can only be referred to as probable or improbable, specifically that it may or may not be true.

So, can they both coexist in the same mind? If you say it can or cannot, how likely would you say it does exist, or not exist? And bonus question, is there a benefit or detriment to both existing at the same time, and why?

//////////////////////////////////////////////////
My answer.
So, can they both coexist in the same mind?
Yes.
If you say it can or cannot, how likely would you say it does exist, or not exist?
It is not very common for people to have both qualities without one or the other being suppressed, whether a rational person rejecting faith or a faithful person rejecting rationality.
Is there a benefit or detriment to both existing at the same time, and why?
Yes there is a benefit. Being rational keeps one grounded in reality, and ensures one makes hopefully well informed decisions based on critical thinking skills. Faith may seem detrimental, but gives one clear advantage in my opinion. It can give one hope. When rational thought tells one that a situation is hopeless, faith, or hope, can be utilized to keep on moving and trying.

//////////////////
What say you? This is not an effort to attack or criticize, even though I am a profound critic of the religious right in politics, but a discussion on peoples thoughts on whether these two qualities can coexists in a person at one time.
Last edited by Blasted Craigs on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The government in America can best be described with an analogy. The two political parties are two cats, the elite is a rat, power is the cheese, and the common people is the floor. The floor feels two cats can guard the cheese better than one. But the cats fight each other, and the rat makes off with the cheese in glee. The floor cannot leave, and soon both cats serve the rat, because the rat has the all powerful cheese, and gives the cats a small bit of it. So the floor gets crapped on by all three, as they eat the cheese together.

User avatar
Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:49 pm

Yes it can.

All of us have a belief or some sort of knowledge that is nothing but fantastical bullshit. All. Of. Us.

We declare ourselves rational but the fact is that you and me both have at least one irascible belief. That's perfectly natural. It happens.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

User avatar
Herrebrugh
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15137
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Herrebrugh » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:50 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:Yes it can.

All of us have a belief or knowledge that is nothing but fantastical bullshit. All. Of. Us.

We declare ourselves rational but the fact is that you and me both have at least one irascible belief. That's perfectly natural. It happens.


This, pretty much exactly.
Geteekendt, Jozef III, bij den gratiën Godts, Koningh der Herrebrugheylanden ende Prins van Rheda
Unterzeichnet, Joſeph III., von Gottes Gnaden König der Herrenbrückinſeln und Prinz von Rheda

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------Factbook------------------------------------
-------------Kingdom of the---------------------Herrebrugh Iſlands----------

User avatar
Gothex
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 14
Founded: Jan 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Gothex » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:13 pm

People who say you can't generally haven't tried either.
I'm the same as Diopolis. Nation mostly reflects actual views.

User avatar
Marxist-Leninist Germany
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 45
Founded: Dec 06, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Marxist-Leninist Germany » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:15 pm

Yes, of course they can.
DeutscheDemokratischeRepublik
Economic Left/Right: -7.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.23
Until I can get around to making a factbook, this nations is very much just the DDR but in modern day, and encompasses all of present day Germany. NS Stats are to be considered canon until further notice.
Tears for Fears wrote:Everybody wants to rule the world

User avatar
The New Sea Territory
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16992
Founded: Dec 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The New Sea Territory » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:10 pm

Nope. Rational people who are religious are ones who identify as a religious person but don't actually follow their religious texts, or they just don't apply their rational thought to their religion.
| Ⓐ | Anarchist Communist | Heideggerian Marxist | Vegetarian | Bisexual | Stirnerite | Slavic/Germanic Pagan | ᛟ |
Solntsa Roshcha --- Postmodern Poyltheist
"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
-Renzo Novatore, Verso il Nulla Creatore

User avatar
Old Tyrannia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 14890
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:13 pm

History is littered with examples of cultures and individuals who prove they can and do.
Ascended to Modhood on the 14th September 2016
The Grand Fascist Empire of Old Tyrannia
⚜ IMPERIVM MAGNVM FASCISTICVM TYRANNIAE ANTIQVAE
Factbook | Tyrannian Empire | Tyrannian Fascism
Everything for Queen and Country.

User avatar
Sosi
Diplomat
 
Posts: 560
Founded: Jan 24, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Sosi » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:16 pm

It has & if not, "hanging on in desperation is the english way".
Have you seen my poetry?

User avatar
Russels Orbiting Teapot
Senator
 
Posts: 4024
Founded: Jan 20, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:17 pm

If you partition correctly, yes. Tons of scientists do this already: they assume that the greater mysteries are too great for them to comprehend, and focus on the things they can comprehend.

Of course, you can't be a fundamentalist about religion and still be a good scientist if what you're investigating in any way crosses the territory of what your religion claims.

User avatar
Skappola
Minister
 
Posts: 2063
Founded: May 12, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Skappola » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:18 pm

Isn't saying "no" to this suggesting that true religious are incapable of rational thought? If so, that would actually be really offensive, and can be disproven by the numerous religious scientists throughout history - unless I'm misunderstanding the question.
Last edited by Skappola on Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Political Compass: Economic: 1.63 Social: -6.72
Political Ideology: Neoliberal Civil Libertarian
I Enjoy: Blues, Paradox Games and Sci-fi

User avatar
Nuwe Suid Afrika
Diplomat
 
Posts: 935
Founded: Oct 21, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Nuwe Suid Afrika » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:22 pm

Of course they can. There's many theories that suggest that there are Gods that set scientific movements into process.

Just because you have faith in a creator does not mean that you can not be rational thinker when it comes to science. For example, when I was 11, I had theorized that there was a God that had initially set forth the big bang and let everything happen from there. I've met other people who have had similar theories.

However, some people who have too much faith can be impaired by it. Having too much faith, i.e. following the bible word for word, would seriously throw off your scientific rationing/reasoning.
Last edited by Nuwe Suid Afrika on Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Economic Left/Right: -8.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 6.56

This nation supports my real life views.
Pro:
Stalinism, Authoritarianism, National Bolshevism, Palestine,

Anti:
Liberalism, Marxism, Anarchism, Israel, Zionism, LGBTBBQABC Rights
If you still believe the holocaust actually happened, you need to see this.

User avatar
Zottistan
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14854
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zottistan » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:25 pm

Of course. Reason is more of a tool than a fundamental quality of how somebody is. Some people just don't apply it to the same areas or in the same ways as others.

User avatar
Great Nepal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28677
Founded: Jan 11, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Great Nepal » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:26 pm

Not without cognitive dissonance and ignoring internal consistency, no. Quite often however there is cognitive dissonance and it is simply ignored - individuals remain rational when it comes to every thing else however give special pass to religion because 'faith'.
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


User avatar
Mavorpen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63266
Founded: Dec 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mavorpen » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:27 pm

Nuwe Suid Afrika wrote: There's many theories that suggest that there are Gods that set scientific movements into process.

No there aren't.
Nuwe Suid Afrika wrote:Just because you have faith in a creator does not mean that you can not be rational thinker when it comes to science. For example, when I was 11, I had theorized that there was a God that had initially set forth the big bang and let everything happen from there. I've met other people who have had similar theories.

Those aren't theories. Those are guesses and ideas and aren't scientific in the slightest.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

User avatar
Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:37 pm

Great Nepal wrote:Not without cognitive dissonance and ignoring internal consistency, no. Quite often however there is cognitive dissonance and it is simply ignored - individuals remain rational when it comes to every thing else however give special pass to religion because 'faith'.


You've never met conspiracy theorists have you?
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

User avatar
Great Nepal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28677
Founded: Jan 11, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Great Nepal » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:46 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:Not without cognitive dissonance and ignoring internal consistency, no. Quite often however there is cognitive dissonance and it is simply ignored - individuals remain rational when it comes to every thing else however give special pass to religion because 'faith'.


You've never met conspiracy theorists have you?

Actually I was friends with a guy who thought tesla power coil exists and could be used to give everyone free power but the government are hiding it because they want campaign funds from electricity companies. I pointed out that if that was true, one of electricity companies would buy it off the greedy government, monopolize electricity and take over the world... He never spoke to me after that.
I think they are example of what happens when we use Occam razor in reverse: anything which makes fewest assumption is lie by the powerful group and anyone who points that out is either part of the conspiracy or too dumb to see it.
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76669
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:47 pm

Yes. But a lot of people haven't any interest in reconciling them. Well-thought theology doesn't seem to be the mainstream anymore.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Skappola
Minister
 
Posts: 2063
Founded: May 12, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Skappola » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:57 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Yes. But a lot of people haven't any interest in reconciling them. Well-thought theology doesn't seem to be the mainstream anymore.

I blame the evangelicals :p

But really, what ever happened to Martin Luther-esque thinkers creating new religious doctrines based on complex reinterpretations of the bible? Not to suggest that this was the norm in the past, but it seems as though religion has somewhat regressed in complexity among many churches.
Political Compass: Economic: 1.63 Social: -6.72
Political Ideology: Neoliberal Civil Libertarian
I Enjoy: Blues, Paradox Games and Sci-fi

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76669
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:59 pm

Skappola wrote:I blame the evangelicals :p

But really, what ever happened to Martin Luther-esque thinkers creating new religious doctrines based on complex reinterpretations of the bible? Not to suggest that this was the norm in the past, but it seems as though religion has somewhat regressed in complexity among many churches.

Ugh, Martin Luther is where this nonsense started.
Martin Luther wrote:But since the devil's bride, Reason, that pretty whore, comes in and thinks she's wise, and what she says, what she thinks, is from the Holy Spirit, who can help us, then? Not judges, not doctors, no king or emperor, because [reason] is the Devil's greatest whore.

...

Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but--more frequently than not--struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Skappola
Minister
 
Posts: 2063
Founded: May 12, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Skappola » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:03 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Skappola wrote:I blame the evangelicals :p

But really, what ever happened to Martin Luther-esque thinkers creating new religious doctrines based on complex reinterpretations of the bible? Not to suggest that this was the norm in the past, but it seems as though religion has somewhat regressed in complexity among many churches.

Ugh, Martin Luther is where this nonsense started.
Martin Luther wrote:But since the devil's bride, Reason, that pretty whore, comes in and thinks she's wise, and what she says, what she thinks, is from the Holy Spirit, who can help us, then? Not judges, not doctors, no king or emperor, because [reason] is the Devil's greatest whore.

...

Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but--more frequently than not--struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.

Lovely.
Let me change the "Martin Luther" to "Nestorius and Arius" and my post will still stand. Coincidentally, I'm not part of a religion which follows the principles of either of these thinkers, but I still recognize their significance in theology.
Political Compass: Economic: 1.63 Social: -6.72
Political Ideology: Neoliberal Civil Libertarian
I Enjoy: Blues, Paradox Games and Sci-fi

User avatar
Imperium Sidhicum
Senator
 
Posts: 4324
Founded: May 28, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperium Sidhicum » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:58 pm

It can and it does. How else would many reputable scientists openly profess to be religious believers?

Most religious authorities these days too agree that religious faith and scientific rationalism do not inherently conflict each other. Both are but different methods of exploring reality, each complementing the other. The rational science seeks to explain and understand how things work and why, while religion seeks to explain their purpose.
Freedom doesn't mean being able to do as one please, but rather not to do as one doesn't please.

A fool sees religion as the truth. A smart man sees religion as a lie. A ruler sees religion as a useful tool.

The more God in one's mouth, the less in one's heart.

User avatar
Nuwe Suid Afrika
Diplomat
 
Posts: 935
Founded: Oct 21, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Nuwe Suid Afrika » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:58 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Nuwe Suid Afrika wrote: There's many theories that suggest that there are Gods that set scientific movements into process.

No there aren't.


Theistic Evolution. Creationism.

Nuwe Suid Afrika wrote:Just because you have faith in a creator does not mean that you can not be rational thinker when it comes to science. For example, when I was 11, I had theorized that there was a God that had initially set forth the big bang and let everything happen from there. I've met other people who have had similar theories.

Those aren't theories. Those are guesses and ideas and aren't scientific in the slightest.[/quote]

Theory:
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

Religious ideas can be considered theories, just as the Big Bang can be.


Economic Left/Right: -8.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 6.56

This nation supports my real life views.
Pro:
Stalinism, Authoritarianism, National Bolshevism, Palestine,

Anti:
Liberalism, Marxism, Anarchism, Israel, Zionism, LGBTBBQABC Rights
If you still believe the holocaust actually happened, you need to see this.

User avatar
Imyoji
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1080
Founded: Oct 22, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Imyoji » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:59 pm

One can balance it if they try hard enough. But a lack of faith allows some ease if one so chooses, I'd say.
The Republic of Imyoji ― Emüryürü-ju Miinju
The Harmonious Northern Island


What do you get when you combine pursuits of technological advancements, an appreciation and strong conservation of the natural environment, and a harmony between altruistic communitarianism and state sponsored capitalism?
i am the globalization shill the left and the right warned you about

User avatar
Mavorpen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63266
Founded: Dec 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mavorpen » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:02 pm

Nuwe Suid Afrika wrote:
Theistic Evolution. Creationism.

Neither are scientific theories. They don't even qualify as hypotheses.
Nuwe Suid Afrika wrote:Theory:
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

That's nice, now how about using the definition of theory as it actually applies to science?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

Nuwe Suid Afrika wrote:Religious ideas can be considered theories, just as the Big Bang can be.

No they can't. The fact that you're not using official scientific terminology for the term "theory" is indicative that you have utterly no clue what you're talking about.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

User avatar
United Russian Soviet States
Minister
 
Posts: 3327
Founded: Jan 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby United Russian Soviet States » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:04 pm

They can easily coexist.
This nation does not represent my views.
I stand with Rand.
_[' ]_
(-_Q) If you support Capitalism put this in your Sig.
:Member of the United National Group:

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Australian rePublic, Dumb Ideologies, ECKU, Forsher, Ghost Land, Google Adsense [Bot], GrarG, J4Quantopia, Nanatsu no Tsuki, Necroghastia, Risastorstein, Saciu, Sodoran Alesia, Souseiseki, Tarsonis, The Blaatschapen, The Holy Therns, The New California Republic, Vassenor, Walkerfort

Advertisement

Remove ads