Race and Racism in The United States

[Mavorpen]

All you have done to support it falling upon institutionalized racism is a bunch of theory, and claiming that without proof otherwise (which, by your demands cannot literally not be obtained) your explanation must be correct.

Stop fucking lying.

Oh, and no, there is actually something that could convince me otherwise: that racism and profiling doesn't exist. There's no evidence of that being true though.

You're welcome to provide evidence of racism not existing, or at least that it isn't significant. Oh, and stop avoiding posts you don't like.

Never did I say that wealth disparity among the races didn't exist.

That's nice for you, but neither did I claim that you said that.

It most definitely exists, and that urban poverty is what leads to the disparity in crimes commited, and the disparity in crimes commited leads to an inherent disparity in arrests/convictions (only to be expected that more arrests come alongside more crimes).

The cause of that disparity was not something we were discussing at the time.

Bullshit. It's a necessary part of the discussion that is inseparable if you're going to argue that poverty contributes to something. The next question is INEVITABLY going to be "well then what causes that poverty?" because we have to get to the root of the problem. It isn't that we weren't discussing it, it's that you're clearly avoiding it because you don't have a damn clue of any legitimate answer except racism.

[The Cobalt Sky]

I know, and I'm saying that's not the case. I highly doubt a whole race of people is just naturally barbaric, and there's a good chance you're a racist for insinuating that. I'm saying that the justice system is the source of the problem, and also huge bigots, not the general populace.

Ooo, I'm so scared. The thing is, I'm pretty sure I'm winning.

I was not chalking the greater likelihood of crime to 'natural barbarism'.

Didn't really make that too clear.

Urban poverty has and likely always will lead to crime. It happened with the Irish mob and Italian mafia, its been happening with blacks in the inner city for decades. It's not their-being-black that leads to more crime, it's the being-poor-with-few-options that does. It isn't difficult to see that the urban poor of today are mostly black or hispanic.

But the profiling clearly proves that there's racism, along with the 20% longer average prison sentences for similar crimes. As Mavorpen has already stated, bigotry has been around longer than the general system, and the bias and hate was synthesized into the system.
"Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found. "
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3789858002

[The Cobalt Sky]

Hi there. This is my first real discussion thread, so if it comes out lopsided, I’ll work on a new one and come back later. I hope that there isn't another thread out there that covers this one, and I looked but I didn't see one. In case you’re wondering, I’m 14, one half black, and one half white. Apparently, there is some Native American in there somewhere, but I’m not really Native American, and I do not claim to understand their experience in America whatsoever and I do not know what it is like to be one at all. But anyway, I think that lately, people have been saying racism is not a problem. But I think that it is, and a very serious one at that. I point to the criminal justice system, which a lot of people apparently don’t think has any racial problems.

“The survey, which was mostly conducted before the shooting of NYPD Officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos in New York over the weekend, found similar results on perceptions of the justice system as a whole. While 41% of Americans say the criminal justice system treats blacks fairly, far more whites - 50% - see equity. Among non-whites, that figure drops to just 21%. Two-thirds of non-whites said that the criminal justice system favors whites over blacks.”
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/22/politics/ ... e-justice/

But it definitely seems to have problems.

“Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found.”
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3789858002
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war ... minorities

“Approximately 12%-13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 40% of the almost 2.1 million male inmates in jail or prison (U.S. Department of Justice, 2009).[1]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics ... ican_males

There are also many issues with racial profiling.

“For every 10,000 residents, about 3,400 more black people are stopped than whites, and 360 more Latinos are stopped than whites. Stopped blacks are 127% more likely to be frisked -- and stopped Latinos are 43% more likely to be frisked -- than stopped whites. Stopped blacks are 76% more likely to be searched, and stopped Latinos are 16% more likely to be searched than stopped whites.
Stopped blacks are 29% more likely to be arrested, and stopped Latinos are 32% more likely to be arrested than stopped whites.
Now consider this: Although stopped blacks were 127% more likely to be frisked than stopped whites, they were 42.3% less likely to be found with a weapon after they were frisked, 25% less likely to be found with drugs and 33% less likely to be found with other contraband. We found similar patterns for Latinos.
Not only did we find that African Americans and Latinos were subjected to more stops, frisks, searches and arrests than whites, we also found that these additional police actions aren't because of the fact that people of color live in higher-crime areas or because they more often carry drugs or weapons, or any other legitimate reason that we can discern from the rich set of data we examined.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/23 ... oe-ayres23

And, with the advent of DNA technology, tons of people were exonerated. The vast majority of the wrongfully convicted were black.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content ... onwide.php
A few other links to consider:
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues ... ed-states/
http://www.sentencingproject.org/templa ... cfm?id=122

After looking through this, I’d say race is still a pretty serious problem in the US, and not talking about it won’t solve anything, just make it worse. I think people are touchy and uncomfortable when it comes to talking about race, because there’s a chance they could be called racist, and a racist is something that society at large generally says is bad, although I think tons of people are still racist. But this wouldn’t be much of a thread if I didn’t ask: what do you think? What racist experiences have you gone through?

EDIT:
Let me revise this, so people can post a little bit more.
A problem, but how serious a problem? Who do you think is its source? How ingrained is it? Are you a racist? (I want a little more than the generic statement, 'yes, it's a problem')

Yes its a problem.
Its a complex problem, deeply complex.
I want to give you more, but I can't.

Yes, in spite of being wholeheartedly against ethnocentric bigotry, I am guilty of prejudices based on ethnicity. Illogical prejudices, stereotyping, and basically contributing to what I believe is a serious problem.

I agree. Admitting it, I think, is the first step to purging it. And I'm pretty sure we all have those biases in some way, no matter how not racist some of us claim to be.

[Atlanticatia]

Institutional racism is still a huge problem in the US. Just 50-60 years ago, there was essentially legal Apartheid in some places. There won't be equality between whites and blacks until institutions change.

[-United Islamic Emirate-]

I'd deffinatly say racism is a problem in this country.

[Patridam]

All you have done to support it falling upon institutionalized racism is a bunch of theory, and claiming that without proof otherwise (which, by your demands cannot literally not be obtained) your explanation must be correct.

Stop fucking lying.

Oooh, watch out, this tough guy's using bad words.

You said that to prove that the crime disparity was not a result of racial profiling, you would have to compare our disparity between races in regards to criminal arrest/conviction to a control group without racial profiling

By your own admission, no such place without racial profiling so as to provide control group has existed, or will exist. Without the control group, no comparison can be made, therefore your demand can never be met.

You are literally asking for evidence that can never exist to prove you wrong.

[Mavorpen]

Oooh, watch out, this tough guy's using bad words.

You said that to prove that the crime disparity was not a result of racial profiling, you would have to compare our disparity between races in regards to criminal arrest/conviction to a control group without racial profiling

Yes, that's because every single other explanation so far has utterly no standing or substantiation, and your refusal to provide evidence for those other explanations demonstrates this fact. I GAVE you other scenarios where you could demonstrate to me that I'm wrong in another post. You chose to ignore it and latch onto your downright asinine and dishonest straw man of my argument because let's face it, you have utterly no damn clue what you're talking about. You have utterly NO evidence to support your stance, and your only final recourse is to ignore all of my arguments while attacking caricatures you've erected to knock over easily with a simple tap. It's wearing thin.

By your own admission, no such place without racial profiling so as to provide control group has existed, or will exist. Without the control group, no comparison can be made, therefore your demand can never be met.

Yeah, that's nice, now actually read the rest of my damn post instead of childishly ignoring it, because I EXPLICITLY explained to you this is a shitty straw man. Me asking you for evidence for God is asking for evidence that can probably never be met because, surprise surprise, there isn't any. That in no way makes my argument any less valid. It just means you have no damn evidence to substantiate your position. That's not a fault in my argument. That just means I'm right.

You are literally asking for evidence that can never exist to prove you wrong.

Once a-fucking-gain, read the rest of my post and quit being intellectually dishonest as hell. It's pathetically annoying at this point. Don't bother responding if you aren't even going to TRY to respond to what I actually post.

Oh, and no, there is actually something that could convince me otherwise: that racism and profiling doesn't exist. There's no evidence of that being true though.

Never did I say that wealth disparity among the races didn't exist.

That's nice for you, but neither did I claim that you said that.

It most definitely exists, and that urban poverty is what leads to the disparity in crimes commited, and the disparity in crimes commited leads to an inherent disparity in arrests/convictions (only to be expected that more arrests come alongside more crimes).

The cause of that disparity was not something we were discussing at the time.

Bullshit. It's a necessary part of the discussion that is inseparable if you're going to argue that poverty contributes to something. The next question is INEVITABLY going to be "well then what causes that poverty?" because we have to get to the root of the problem. It isn't that we weren't discussing it, it's that you're clearly avoiding it because you don't have a damn clue of any legitimate answer except racism.

[Nebalon]

If black people followed the law, black people would not fill our prisons.

[Romalae]

If black people followed the law, black people would not fill our prisons.

There's no excuse for racist generalizations.

[Mike the Progressive]

If black people followed the law, black people would not fill our prisons.

There's no excuse for racist generalizations.

ha! what is ignorance? What is stupidity?

[Gauthier]

If black people followed the law, black people would not fill our prisons.

The black/white marijuana arrest gap, in nine charts

So... if black and white marijuana use is roughly the same rate, can you explain how blacks are magically able to break the law more than whites smoking marijuana?

[Sosi]

If black people followed the law, black people would not fill our prisons.

Rather, the law ought to lessen its following of black people.

[Mavorpen]

Before people further waste their time, I want to post this for context:

Slaves are not another species. Separate species are not capable of miscegenation.

Explain how humans came from different species of animal then

Just think about this. Really think about whether it's worth shortening your life span.

[Tayrona]

I don't know if you heard, but we've elected Obama. Twice. We're living in a post-racial society now.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Gauthier]

Before people further waste their time, I want to post this for context:

Explain how humans came from different species of animal then

Just think about this. Really think about whether it's worth shortening your life span.

Hey, I enjoy Cthulhu Mythos literature.

[Mike the Progressive]

I don't know if you heard, but we've elected Obama. Twice. We're living in a post-racial society now.

Exactly my thoughts.

well your thoughts must be sacrastic bromeister because i was being fucking sarcastic

[Nebalon]

If black people followed the law, black people would not fill our prisons.

There's no excuse for racist generalizations.

It's not a generalization but a really simple fact.

Black person +breaking law = prison

So...

Black person + not breaking law = no black person in prison

Honestly I've solved your entire problem

[Edgy Opinions]

There's no excuse for racist generalizations.

It's not a generalization but a really simple fact.

Black person +breaking law = prison

So...

Black person + not breaking law = no black person in prison

Honestly I've solved your entire problem

Except people are punished differently for the same crime, crimes that are actually similar in nature are punished in different scales because they're associated with certain parts of the population, people are more stopped, more frisked and more searched without explanation further than race, and people are far more like to be arrested due to the same things also according to race. Not to mention that it harms socioeconomic agency for ex-convicts more.

I mean, you can explain 1 in 5 black males. It's obviously too many innocents. Wake up.

[Romalae]

There's no excuse for racist generalizations.

It's not a generalization but a really simple fact.

Black person +breaking law = prison

So...

Black person + not breaking law = no black person in prison

Honestly I've solved your entire problem

Your post said "if black people followed the law...", which is a generalization because it assumes that black people don't all follow the law.

[Gauthier]

It's not a generalization but a really simple fact.

Black person +breaking law = prison

So...

Black person + not breaking law = no black person in prison

Honestly I've solved your entire problem

Your post said "if black people followed the law...", which is a generalization because it assumes that black people don't all follow the law.

Obviously every single black person in the United States is either a Blood or a Crip. Bonus points if he replies with something in the neighborhood of "That's right."

[Divitaen]

There's no excuse for racist generalizations.

It's not a generalization but a really simple fact.

Black person +breaking law = prison

So...

Black person + not breaking law = no black person in prison

Honestly I've solved your entire problem

You claimed that black people "filling the prisons" is somehow a sign of African-Americans not being law-abiding rather than racial issues. And of course African-Americans who commit crimes should be punished for them, no question, but you ignore the underlying social inequalities and unfair treatment that causes a disproprotionate number of African-Americans to be in prison. Previously I gave a few examples of this. Blacks and whites use marijuana at the same rates, yet African-Americans are arrested, prosecuted and jailed much more often. Stop and Frisk searches target African-Americans and Hispanics. And a study of the justice system shows that African-Americans are given higher sentences for the same crime they are convicted of as white people, so all these factors need to be considered rather than making such a racist hasty generalisation.

[Escasia]

On the "black people are filling up our jails" thing:

Black people are likely to be poorer than white people due to the circumstances which brought many of their families to the United States. The average person isn't going to be much richer or poorer than their parents, and most of the African-American population was forced to start at the bottom of the system. Segregation and slavery were still in place until fairly recently (in terms of generations) and affected huge amounts of people as well as their descendants indirectly. it's not really surprising that those things still have effects today.

Poorer people are more likely to commit crime out of desperation, frustration or necessity and more likely to get convicted than richer people because they lack the resources to defend themselves as effectively in court.

Institutional racism compounds the likelihood of black people being convicted for a crime and getting a harsher sentence. It also produces a feeling of resentment among young black people which may also lead to more crime.

That's why black people are more likely to end up in jail than white people. It's important not to view people in isolation from their circumstances or we end up attributing all sorts of unreasonable things to race/genetics. The problem's systemic, not racial as some would claim.

[The Cobalt Sky]

I don't know if you heard, but we've elected Obama. Twice. We're living in a post-racial society now.

Exactly my thoughts.

I hope you're not serious.

[The Cobalt Sky]

There's no excuse for racist generalizations.

It's not a generalization but a really simple fact.

No, it's not. The system is biased.

Black person +breaking law = prison

Not to mention 20% LONGER prison sentences for black people after committing SIMILAR crimes as white people. That's clearly bias.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3789858002

So...

Black person + not breaking law = no black person in prison

Honestly I've solved your entire problem

You don't get it, do you? The system is already biased, so there's a stronger focus on African Americans, and that's why we fill the prisons more than whites. And did you NOT read the part about how many of us were exonerated by DNA? We're clearly discriminated against in the courtrooms, too. Maybe some of us going to prison are actually innocent.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Exactly my thoughts.

I hope you're not serious.

I know Mike's not serious,