Race and Racism in The United States

[Mavorpen]

If you don't feel that I'm correct then attack what I actually posted rather than straw men.

Which is evidently impossible, because if I apply your statements to their logical implications, then you just spout 'that's not what I said', and refuse to address anything.

You'd first need to actually apply my statements to logical implications first for this to be a valid complaint.

You are stating that the greater amount of arrests among blacks vs whites is due to racial profiling. Racial profiling is institutionalized racism on the part of the police and the legal system. Therefore, institutional racism *must* be the cause of the arrest disparity.

Well no it's not the cause. It's certainly the largest root cause though. You're at least a lot closer this time though. Was it really that difficult?

Have you considered that blacks are arrested for more crimes because they commit more crimes?

Yes, but that's bullshit. It's true for some categories of crime when it comes to conviction though.

[Scyobayrynn]

No. You can try again if you like, but I'd prefer if you really read what I posted.

Mav, the only thing I can glean is that you believe everything is the fault of continued systematic racism (presumably committed by hordes of bigoted whites in power of the legal system), and the only thing that could ever potentially convince you otherwise would be a comparison/test that requires circumstances that are likely impossible.

I dont know about Mav.
But there is a serious problem it is the result of systemic bigotry, stereotyping, and prejudice. Its not hordes of White people, its hordes of people. Blacks are as guilty of Bigotry and stereotyping of Black as Whites are...thats what makes the systemic bigotry so prominent. You can have Blacks unconsciously maintaining the system.

It is a method of thinking we are trying to pry from the national psychology, our identity as a society is one of bigotry. As I said I dont know Mav's point, but I would dare say he is somewhere in there with it.

I used to vehemently deny systemic bigotry, then one day-- it was like an epiphany. Or rather it was like an instructor having me do some research on a specific subject which just lead from one thing to the next.
It was a moment of introspection where I realized that I was bigoted and prejudicial, where my black friends were too-- and not just towards white people, but towards blacks as well.
Then I realized that the very notion that I thought "they" should be "sticking together" was itself bigoted.
My sister is fucking black, doesnt change a line of thinking that is so deep in our social consciousness most people dont view bigoted shit as being bigoted. They view it as "normal thinking".

[Mavorpen]

Mav, the only thing I can glean is that you believe everything is the fault of continued systematic racism (presumably committed by hordes of bigoted whites in power of the legal system), and the only thing that could ever potentially convince you otherwise would be a comparison/test that requires circumstances that are likely impossible.

I dont know about Mav.
But there is a serious problem it is the result of systemic bigotry, stereotyping, and prejudice. Its not hordes of White people, its hordes of people. Blacks are as guilty of Bigotry and stereotyping of Black as Whites are...thats what makes the systemic bigotry so prominent. You can have Blacks unconsciously maintaining the system.

It is a method of thinking we are trying to pry from the national psychology, our identity as a society is one of bigotry. As I said I dont know Mav's point, but I would dare say he is somewhere in there with it.

I used to vehemently deny systemic bigotry, then one day-- it was like an epiphany. Or rather it was like an instructor having me do some research on a specific subject which just lead from one thing to the next.
It was a moment of introspection where I realized that I was bigoted and prejudicial, where my black friends were too-- and not just towards white people, but towards blacks as well.
Then I realized that the very notion that I thought "they" should be "sticking together" was itself bigoted.
My sister is fucking black, doesnt change a line of thinking that is so deep in our social consciousness most people dont view bigoted shit as being bigoted. They view it as "normal thinking".

No, no, you got it completely. I'm waiting for Patridam to understand it.

[Scyobayrynn]

In the matter of Blacks and criminal profiling, Blacks do in fact commit more minor drug offenses than Whites.
If one profiles on ethnic lines, you will consistently arrest blacks more often for minor drug offenses...because you are checking blacks more often.
Whites in terms of profiling tend to commit more felonious drug offenses. So why arent we checking whites more often? They are the ones committing the more major crime on average?

Or federal sentencing guidelines that nearly double the sentence for being arrested with a quantity of crack cocaine versus being arrested with the same quantity of powered cocaine...care to wager which group is more likely to have rock cocaine in their possession and which group is more likely to have powdered cocaine?

Why is black man statistically more likely in this country to do his entire sentence?
Why is a black man in this country statistically more likely to be given a longer sentence for a given offense?


Our system is broken.

It of course goes deeper than this, and extends far beyond the criminal justice system.

IM not a white apologist by the way. Ive never owned a slave or oppressed a Black man. But I fucking get it, I see it, its there. Im not an apologist, but Im not a denier anymore either.

[Patridam]

Well no it's not the cause. It's certainly the largest root cause though. You're at least a lot closer this time though. Was it really that difficult?

Considering it's pretty much exactly the same thing that you vehemently denied before...

Mav, the only thing I can glean is that you believe everything is the fault of continued systematic racism (presumably committed by hordes of bigoted whites in power of the legal system), and the only thing that could ever potentially convince you otherwise would be a comparison/test that requires circumstances that are likely impossible.

Have you considered that blacks are arrested for more crimes because they commit more crimes?

Yes, but that's bullshit. It's true for some categories of crime when it comes to conviction though.

I think that the biggest cause of all this is urban poverty among blacks and Hispanics. It's no secret they make up most of the urban poor, and sometimes a life of crime seems like a very good option. These communities perpetuate the same culture that accepts illegal guns and demonizes police. I feel that's the chief cause, rather than institutional racism - which still exists, obviously, but I don't think it's as common/widespread a problem as many make it out to be.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Well no it's not the cause. It's certainly the largest root cause though. You're at least a lot closer this time though. Was it really that difficult?

Considering it's pretty much exactly the same thing that you vehemently denied before...

Mav, the only thing I can glean is that you believe everything is the fault of continued systematic racism (presumably committed by hordes of bigoted whites in power of the legal system), and the only thing that could ever potentially convince you otherwise would be a comparison/test that requires circumstances that are likely impossible.

Yes, but that's bullshit. It's true for some categories of crime when it comes to conviction though.

I think that the biggest cause of all this is urban poverty among blacks and Hispanics. It's no secret they make up most of the urban poor, and sometimes a life of crime seems like a very good option. These communities perpetuate the same culture that accepts illegal guns and demonizes police. I feel that's the chief cause, rather than institutional racism - which still exists, obviously, but I don't think it's as common/widespread a problem as many make it out to be.

As a Hispanic I can say this is a load of bullshit.

The real reason why many choose to join a gang is not poverty, is the helplessness and peer pressure.

[Patridam]

As a Hispanic I can say this is a load of bullshit.

The real reason why many choose to join a gang is not poverty, is the helplessness and peer pressure.

Would those gangs have formed anywhere else but poor areas in the city, though?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

As a Hispanic I can say this is a load of bullshit.

The real reason why many choose to join a gang is not poverty, is the helplessness and peer pressure.

Would those gangs have formed anywhere else but poor areas in the city, though?

Perhaps. Although the problem here is that you're attributing the fact that hispanics are poor with the fact that hispanics are gangsters.

Immigrant farmers are poor and yet you don't see them joining in gangs. In fact, most Latinos would be dead before committing a crime just to have money. We're more proud than you think, and we have a communal philosophy, so it's hardly the fact that we're poor. There's more to it than that which you are not addressing.

[Mavorpen]

Well no it's not the cause. It's certainly the largest root cause though. You're at least a lot closer this time though. Was it really that difficult?

Considering it's pretty much exactly the same thing that you vehemently denied before...

Mav, the only thing I can glean is that you believe everything is the fault of continued systematic racism (presumably committed by hordes of bigoted whites in power of the legal system), and the only thing that could ever potentially convince you otherwise would be a comparison/test that requires circumstances that are likely impossible.

Only if you aren't only not reading my posts but you aren't reading your own either. Racism isn't committed by hoards of bigoted whites in power. It's committed by average people who subconsciously develop schemas based on racist stereotypes. Oh, and no, there is actually something that could convince me otherwise: that racism and profiling doesn't exist. There's no evidence of that being true though.

Yes, but that's bullshit. It's true for some categories of crime when it comes to conviction though.

I think that the biggest cause of all this is urban poverty among blacks and Hispanics. It's no secret they make up most of the urban poor, and sometimes a life of crime seems like a very good option. These communities perpetuate the same culture that accepts illegal guns and demonizes police. I feel that's the chief cause, rather than institutional racism - which still exists, obviously, but I don't think it's as common/widespread a problem as many make it out to be.

Then you haven't put much thought into this. You're stopping at poverty why,exactly? You're fine with answering the question of why blacks are profiled with blacks committing more crime. You're fine with answering the question of why they commit more crime with poverty. You're not fine with answering the question of why there is a racial wealth and income disparity. And of course that cognitive dissonance is a natural result when you deny facts about racism being an actually significant problem.

[Scyobayrynn]

As a Hispanic I can say this is a load of bullshit.

The real reason why many choose to join a gang is not poverty, is the helplessness and peer pressure.

Would those gangs have formed anywhere else but poor areas in the city, though?

Are you suggesting that violent groups are singularly an urban minority phenomenon?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Considering it's pretty much exactly the same thing that you vehemently denied before...

Only if you aren't only not reading my posts but you aren't reading your own either. Racism isn't committed by hoards of bigoted whites in power. It's committed by average people who subconsciously develop schemas based on racist stereotypes. Oh, and no, there is actually something that could convince me otherwise: that racism and profiling doesn't exist. There's no evidence of that being true though.

I think that the biggest cause of all this is urban poverty among blacks and Hispanics. It's no secret they make up most of the urban poor, and sometimes a life of crime seems like a very good option. These communities perpetuate the same culture that accepts illegal guns and demonizes police. I feel that's the chief cause, rather than institutional racism - which still exists, obviously, but I don't think it's as common/widespread a problem as many make it out to be.

Then you haven't put much thought into this. You're stopping at poverty why,exactly? You're fine with answering the question of why blacks are profiled with blacks committing more crime. You're fine with answering the question of why they commit more crime with poverty. You're not fine with answering the question of why there is a racial wealth and income disparity. And of course that cognitive dissonance is a natural result when you dent facts about racism being an actually significant problem.

What's funny about his assertion is that he chose Hispanics to compare.

Our culture is severely different than American culture, except for perhaps Chicanos and Chicano culture, but Hispanic/Latino culture is literally communal. The good name of a person is more in relation to how well they are seen in our community, and by that you have to be the kind of person who ingratiates the community, which is why Cruz and Rubio are not well liked. They're Latinos, but they don't understand us because they're pretty boys raised in the North where the culture is more individualistic.

Basically, if you think North America's culture is harsh, you've never grown up as a Latino kid.

[Mavorpen]

Would those gangs have formed anywhere else but poor areas in the city, though?

Perhaps. Although the problem here is that you're attributing the fact that hispanics are poor with the fact that hispanics are gangsters.

Immigrant farmers are poor and yet you don't see them joining in gangs. In fact, most Latinos would be dead before committing a crime just to have money. We're more proud than you think, and we have a communal philosophy, so it's hardly the fact that we're poor. There's more to it than that which you are not addressing.

That's because he's not willing to explore the cause for the poverty disparity while he's perfectly happy to talk about the things that poverty contributes to.

[Patridam]

Then you haven't put much thought into this. You're stopping at poverty why,exactly? You're fine with answering the question of why blacks are profiled with blacks committing more crime. You're fine with answering the question of why they commit more crime with poverty. You're not fine with answering the question of why there is a racial wealth and income disparity. And of course that cognitive dissonance is a natural result when you deny facts about racism being an actually significant problem.

Never did I say that wealth disparity among the races didn't exist. It most definitely exists, and that urban poverty is what leads to the disparity in crimes commited, and the disparity in crimes commited leads to an inherent disparity in arrests/convictions (only to be expected that more arrests come alongside more crimes).

The cause of that disparity was not something we were discussing at the time.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Then you haven't put much thought into this. You're stopping at poverty why,exactly? You're fine with answering the question of why blacks are profiled with blacks committing more crime. You're fine with answering the question of why they commit more crime with poverty. You're not fine with answering the question of why there is a racial wealth and income disparity. And of course that cognitive dissonance is a natural result when you deny facts about racism being an actually significant problem.

Never did I say that wealth disparity among the races didn't exist. It most definitely exists, and that urban poverty is what leads to the disparity in crimes commited, and the disparity in crimes commited leads to an inherent disparity in arrests/convictions (only to be expected that more arrests come alongside more crimes).

The cause of that disparity was not something we were discussing at the time.

Not really. It only provides context for violent crimes.

Same as higher wealth gives you access to commit white-collar crimes and being tech savvy opens the doors to become a cyber-criminal. And yet not all rich people are white-collar criminals and tech savvy people are not hackers/script kiddies.

[Mavorpen]

Never did I say that wealth disparity among the races didn't exist.

That's nice for you, but neither did I claim that you said that.

It most definitely exists, and that urban poverty is what leads to the disparity in crimes commited, and the disparity in crimes commited leads to an inherent disparity in arrests/convictions (only to be expected that more arrests come alongside more crimes).

The cause of that disparity was not something we were discussing at the time.

Bullshit. It's a necessary part of the discussion that is inseparable if you're going to argue that poverty contributes to something. The next question is INEVITABLY going to be "well then what causes that poverty?" because we have to get to the root of the problem. It isn't that we weren't discussing it, it's that you're clearly avoiding it because you don't have a damn clue of any legitimate answer except racism.

[Patridam]

Would those gangs have formed anywhere else but poor areas in the city, though?

Are you suggesting that violent groups are singularly an urban minority phenomenon?

Criminal gangs are primarily an urban poor phenomenon, formed among people with a shared characteristic - almost always ethnic/racial. In the past, there were Italian and Irish gangs because they were common and impoverished groups. Today, Hispanics and blacks are in similar situations.

[Scyobayrynn]

Then you haven't put much thought into this. You're stopping at poverty why,exactly? You're fine with answering the question of why blacks are profiled with blacks committing more crime. You're fine with answering the question of why they commit more crime with poverty. You're not fine with answering the question of why there is a racial wealth and income disparity. And of course that cognitive dissonance is a natural result when you deny facts about racism being an actually significant problem.

Never did I say that wealth disparity among the races didn't exist. It most definitely exists, and that urban poverty is what leads to the disparity in crimes commited, and the disparity in crimes commited leads to an inherent disparity in arrests/convictions (only to be expected that more arrests come alongside more crimes).

The cause of that disparity was not something we were discussing at the time.

Please forgive me, but we've asked Mav what his point was.
I may have missed it.

But what position exactly are you arguing?

[Patridam]

Never did I say that wealth disparity among the races didn't exist. It most definitely exists, and that urban poverty is what leads to the disparity in crimes commited, and the disparity in crimes commited leads to an inherent disparity in arrests/convictions (only to be expected that more arrests come alongside more crimes).

The cause of that disparity was not something we were discussing at the time.

Please forgive me, but we've asked Mav what his point was.
I may have missed it.

But what position exactly are you arguing?

That the disparity in arrests/convictions/imprisonment between blacks and whites has much more to do with the blacks actually commiting more crimes than it does institutionalized racism on the part of the legal system.

[Scyobayrynn]

Are you suggesting that violent groups are singularly an urban minority phenomenon?

Criminal gangs are primarily an urban poor phenomenon, formed among people with a shared characteristic - almost always ethnic/racial. In the past, there were Italian and Irish gangs because they were common and impoverished groups. Today, Hispanics and blacks are in similar situations.

See what you did there?
I used the words "Violent Groups".
You changed it back to the buzz word associated with urban areas. You altered the question.

So Ill ask it again, are you suggesting that Violent Groups are singularly an urban minority phenomenon? That white participation/formation/involvement in these groups is anomalous?

[Mavorpen]

Only if you aren't only not reading my posts but you aren't reading your own either. Racism isn't committed by hoards of bigoted whites in power. It's committed by average people who subconsciously develop schemas based on racist stereotypes. Oh, and no, there is actually something that could convince me otherwise: that racism and profiling doesn't exist. There's no evidence of that being true though.

Then you haven't put much thought into this. You're stopping at poverty why,exactly? You're fine with answering the question of why blacks are profiled with blacks committing more crime. You're fine with answering the question of why they commit more crime with poverty. You're not fine with answering the question of why there is a racial wealth and income disparity. And of course that cognitive dissonance is a natural result when you dent facts about racism being an actually significant problem.

What's funny about his assertion is that he chose Hispanics to compare.

Our culture is severely different than American culture, except for perhaps Chicanos and Chicano culture, but Hispanic/Latino culture is literally communal. The good name of a person is more in relation to how well they are seen in our community, and by that you have to be the kind of person who ingratiates the community, which is why Cruz and Rubio are not well liked. They're Latinos, but they don't understand us because they're pretty boys raised in the North where the culture is more individualistic.

Basically, if you think North America's culture is harsh, you've never grown up as a Latino kid.

Blacks are similar, though that's because we've had to become that way due to segregation. Ironically, if it weren't for white gangs, black gangs probably wouldn't exist in current numbers. When you get a combination of poverty and segregation/discrimination, you're going to get gangs, because these people believe that it's how they can unify and bring themselves together. They have developed a concept that the gang is their second family. They've developed a concept that it's "us versus them," and therefore they need to unify. And that doesn't come out of thin air simply from poverty. It requires something more disturbing. An actual differentiation between "us versus them" that's caused by things like profiling.

[Mavorpen]

Please forgive me, but we've asked Mav what his point was.
I may have missed it.

But what position exactly are you arguing?

That the disparity in arrests/convictions/imprisonment between blacks and whites has much more to do with the blacks actually commiting more crimes than it does institutionalized racism on the part of the legal system.

And you've still done jack shit to do anything to substantiate that.

[Patridam]

Criminal gangs are primarily an urban poor phenomenon, formed among people with a shared characteristic - almost always ethnic/racial. In the past, there were Italian and Irish gangs because they were common and impoverished groups. Today, Hispanics and blacks are in similar situations.

See what you did there?
I used the words "Violent Groups".
You changed it back to the buzz word associated with urban areas. You altered the question.

So Ill ask it again, are you suggesting that Violent Groups are singularly an urban minority phenomenon? That white participation/formation/involvement in these groups is anomalous?

I changed it from 'violent groups' because that can mean literally anything. The military, packs of wolves, angry mobs. Violence is something fairly common among humans in general, so no, it is not something specific to minorities.

[Patridam]

That the disparity in arrests/convictions/imprisonment between blacks and whites has much more to do with the blacks actually commiting more crimes than it does institutionalized racism on the part of the legal system.

And you've still done jack shit to do anything to substantiate that.

All you have done to support it falling upon institutionalized racism is a bunch of theory, and claiming that without proof otherwise (which, by your demands cannot literally not be obtained) your explanation must be correct.

[Scyobayrynn]

Please forgive me, but we've asked Mav what his point was.
I may have missed it.

But what position exactly are you arguing?

That the disparity in arrests/convictions/imprisonment between blacks and whites has much more to do with the blacks actually commiting more crimes than it does institutionalized racism on the part of the legal system.

The you havnt actually done any research on profiling or crimes statistics, or sentencing because frankly the supposition that blacks are just more prone to criminal behavior is utter bullshit.
Additionally, committing more crimes still would increase the sentencing % now would it?
It wouldnt increase the first offensive incarceration rate--which is absurdly lopsided, I mean I assume you know its lopsided because you checked, and you have an explanation for that.

You also can explain why blacks receive longer sentences and tend to do more of their full sentence than their Hispanic and White counterparts?
Thats right, Hispanics and Latinos enjoy far less stress under the legal system than Blacks, as a matter of fact their numbers in those terms are much closer to those we find with Whites.
Which is why its funny you keep lumping latinos with blacks, its almost like you didnt really research anything.

[Scyobayrynn]

And you've still done jack shit to do anything to substantiate that.

All you have done to support it falling upon institutionalized racism is a bunch of theory, and claiming that without proof otherwise (which, by your demands cannot literally not be obtained) your explanation must be correct.

So poverty makes Blacks more likely to be incarcerated on non-violent first offense felonies than Whites or Latinos?