Race and Racism in The United States

[Independent Republic of Not My Problem]

The DOJ has run through this crap numerous times.
Riddle me this mr stats man:
Of those arrests, who and how many resisted without violence? With violence?
Do they have prior run ins with the law?
Prior convictions? Plea bargains?
What were the extenuating circumstances?
What led to the initial contact with the officers?
Once in custody, were they cooperative?
Were they on parole or have pending charges?

All these, and more, have a significant impact in how your case gets handled by the system. Compounding issues of repeat arrests and convictions also tend to skew statistics done by lazy statisticians as they frequently, sometimes intentionally, ignore the number of unique events, in favor of bulk numbers.

Did you miss this part?
“For every 10,000 residents, about 3,400 more black people are stopped than whites, and 360 more Latinos are stopped than whites. Stopped blacks are 127% more likely to be frisked -- and stopped Latinos are 43% more likely to be frisked -- than stopped whites. Stopped blacks are 76% more likely to be searched, and stopped Latinos are 16% more likely to be searched than stopped whites.
Stopped blacks are 29% more likely to be arrested, and stopped Latinos are 32% more likely to be arrested than stopped whites.
Now consider this: Although stopped blacks were 127% more likely to be frisked than stopped whites, they were 42.3% less likely to be found with a weapon after they were frisked, 25% less likely to be found with drugs and 33% less likely to be found with other contraband. We found similar patterns for Latinos.
Not only did we find that African Americans and Latinos were subjected to more stops, frisks, searches and arrests than whites, we also found that these additional police actions aren't because of the fact that people of color live in higher-crime areas or because they more often carry drugs or weapons, or any other legitimate reason that we can discern from the rich set of data we examined.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/23 ... oe-ayres23
Stopped and searched more. That's clearly bias.
And there is clearly a disparity with drug sentencing:
""The race issue isn't just that the judge is going, 'Oh, black man, I'm gonna sentence you higher,'" she said. "The police go into low-income minority neighborhoods and that's where they make most of their drug arrests. If they arrest you, now you have a 'prior,' so if you plead or get arrested again, you're gonna have a higher sentence. There's a kind of cumulative effect.""
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/1 ... 41346.html
You also have yet to provide a legitimate counterexample.

I've providing criticisms, your stats still don't answer the questions. That's great that you can show they get stopped more frequently, but you still fail to provide any details other than race and now income. You can't make claims of racial bias based solely on the fact that they get stopped more often, arrested more often, or have harsher sentences based solely on their race. The data has to show, that all things being equal, that a non-white will receive harsher treatment. That is not demonstrated in the evidence.

[Mavorpen]

Did you miss this part?
“For every 10,000 residents, about 3,400 more black people are stopped than whites, and 360 more Latinos are stopped than whites. Stopped blacks are 127% more likely to be frisked -- and stopped Latinos are 43% more likely to be frisked -- than stopped whites. Stopped blacks are 76% more likely to be searched, and stopped Latinos are 16% more likely to be searched than stopped whites.
Stopped blacks are 29% more likely to be arrested, and stopped Latinos are 32% more likely to be arrested than stopped whites.
Now consider this: Although stopped blacks were 127% more likely to be frisked than stopped whites, they were 42.3% less likely to be found with a weapon after they were frisked, 25% less likely to be found with drugs and 33% less likely to be found with other contraband. We found similar patterns for Latinos.
Not only did we find that African Americans and Latinos were subjected to more stops, frisks, searches and arrests than whites, we also found that these additional police actions aren't because of the fact that people of color live in higher-crime areas or because they more often carry drugs or weapons, or any other legitimate reason that we can discern from the rich set of data we examined.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/23 ... oe-ayres23
Stopped and searched more. That's clearly bias.
And there is clearly a disparity with drug sentencing:
""The race issue isn't just that the judge is going, 'Oh, black man, I'm gonna sentence you higher,'" she said. "The police go into low-income minority neighborhoods and that's where they make most of their drug arrests. If they arrest you, now you have a 'prior,' so if you plead or get arrested again, you're gonna have a higher sentence. There's a kind of cumulative effect.""
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/1 ... 41346.html
You also have yet to provide a legitimate counterexample.

I've providing criticisms, your stats still don't answer the questions. That's great that you can show they get stopped more frequently, but you still fail to provide any details other than race and now income. You can't make claims of racial bias based solely on the fact that they get stopped more often, arrested more often, or have harsher sentences based solely on their race. The data has to show, that all things being equal, that a non-white will receive harsher treatment. That is not demonstrated in the evidence.

Then you aren't actually reading his posts.

Not only did we find that African Americans and Latinos were subjected to more stops, frisks, searches and arrests than whites, we also found that these additional police actions aren't because of the fact that people of color live in higher-crime areas or because they more often carry drugs or weapons, or any other legitimate reason that we can discern from the rich set of data we examined.”

They DO control for everything you've mentioned. So yes, all things being equal, minorities get stopped, frisked, have unnecessary force used against them, etc. more often.

[Thermodolia]

Did you miss this part?
“For every 10,000 residents, about 3,400 more black people are stopped than whites, and 360 more Latinos are stopped than whites. Stopped blacks are 127% more likely to be frisked -- and stopped Latinos are 43% more likely to be frisked -- than stopped whites. Stopped blacks are 76% more likely to be searched, and stopped Latinos are 16% more likely to be searched than stopped whites.
Stopped blacks are 29% more likely to be arrested, and stopped Latinos are 32% more likely to be arrested than stopped whites.
Now consider this: Although stopped blacks were 127% more likely to be frisked than stopped whites, they were 42.3% less likely to be found with a weapon after they were frisked, 25% less likely to be found with drugs and 33% less likely to be found with other contraband. We found similar patterns for Latinos.
Not only did we find that African Americans and Latinos were subjected to more stops, frisks, searches and arrests than whites, we also found that these additional police actions aren't because of the fact that people of color live in higher-crime areas or because they more often carry drugs or weapons, or any other legitimate reason that we can discern from the rich set of data we examined.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/23 ... oe-ayres23
Stopped and searched more. That's clearly bias.
And there is clearly a disparity with drug sentencing:
""The race issue isn't just that the judge is going, 'Oh, black man, I'm gonna sentence you higher,'" she said. "The police go into low-income minority neighborhoods and that's where they make most of their drug arrests. If they arrest you, now you have a 'prior,' so if you plead or get arrested again, you're gonna have a higher sentence. There's a kind of cumulative effect.""
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/1 ... 41346.html
You also have yet to provide a legitimate counterexample.

I've providing criticisms, your stats still don't answer the questions. That's great that you can show they get stopped more frequently, but you still fail to provide any details other than race and now income. You can't make claims of racial bias based solely on the fact that they get stopped more often, arrested more often, or have harsher sentences based solely on their race. The data has to show, that all things being equal, that a non-white will receive harsher treatment. That is not demonstrated in the evidence.

While there may be a Great disparity in petty crime between blacks and whites the majority of most serial killers are white. Just saying.

[Mavorpen]

I've providing criticisms, your stats still don't answer the questions. That's great that you can show they get stopped more frequently, but you still fail to provide any details other than race and now income. You can't make claims of racial bias based solely on the fact that they get stopped more often, arrested more often, or have harsher sentences based solely on their race. The data has to show, that all things being equal, that a non-white will receive harsher treatment. That is not demonstrated in the evidence.

While there may be a Great disparity in petty crime between blacks and whites the majority of most serial killers are white. Just saying.

School shooters are the biggest example, the overwhelming majority of which are white males.

I await white people to start calling for white male teens to be discriminated against for the safety of high schools everywhere.

[Thermodolia]

While there may be a Great disparity in petty crime between blacks and whites the majority of most serial killers are white. Just saying.

Let's not get into school shooters, the overwhelming majority of which are white males.

I await white people to start calling for white male teens to be discriminated against for the safety of high schools everywhere.

In your dreams buddy. I personally think no one should be discriminate against based on race. I think people should be looked at more closely if they trend towards psychopathic issues

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Al. Al Sharpton.

And while he's hardly the spokesperson I'd personally choose, I'm not sure exactly what you want black people to do when major racial issues come up. Not have someone who is willing to call for attention and say "This needs to be seen and discussed"? Not have someone lead the outcry against brutality or senseless killing? Or is it okay to do that if the person doesn't make a living through his work in the area?

Not saying that. What I'm saying is Al Sharpton tends to go about it in a not so great way kinda trying to stir up some things. Yes I know his name is Al. I'm just writing this on the go

If things don't get stirred up, they tend to go unnoticed by the media. So long as he's not calling for violence--and, indeed, he's consistently called for peaceful demonstrations and denounced violence while understanding the motivations for it--he's doing what he sees as necessary to draw attention to police abuse and systemic racism. He's a bit gauche for my tastes, but then again, he's not representing me personally, so I don't really have a say in the matter.

[Independent Republic of Not My Problem]

There seems to be an implication that the answers to these questions would somehow support your point. Rather than have others do your research to make your arguments for you, how about you find out the information, and present it to us with an explanation of how it reinforces whatever you're trying to say?

My point is that the stats lack sufficient evidence to indicate racial bias in the justice system. As such, the arrest and sentencing statistics show that they commit crimes more frequently. It is on the person presenting a claim of bias to demonstrate, that all things being equal, whites will receive preferential treatment compared to non-whites. I don't need to do additional research as the numbers are right there. These crap claims pop up all the damn time and have never once shown anything other than peoples' desire to sensationalize incomplete data that they don't understand. So until you can show me that the DOJ statistics, published yearly, demonstrate racial biases against minorities rather than simply higher instances of criminal behavior among said groups.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The solution to your problem of course, isn't to fight against racism but rather- to accept it as what is natural and true. Learn what racial/ethnic group you belong to and do not feel any shame in embracing that. I choose to keep to my own as much as possible and couldn't be happier.

I hope you realize stoicism is a frankly stupid way to govern.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

There seems to be an implication that the answers to these questions would somehow support your point. Rather than have others do your research to make your arguments for you, how about you find out the information, and present it to us with an explanation of how it reinforces whatever you're trying to say?

My point is that the stats lack sufficient evidence to indicate racial bias in the justice system. As such, the arrest and sentencing statistics show that they commit crimes more frequently. It is on the person presenting a claim of bias to demonstrate, that all things being equal, whites will receive preferential treatment compared to non-whites. I don't need to do additional research as the numbers are right there. These crap claims pop up all the damn time and have never once shown anything other than peoples' desire to sensationalize incomplete data that they don't understand. So until you can show me that the DOJ statistics, published yearly, demonstrate racial biases against minorities rather than simply higher instances of criminal behavior among said groups.

The statistics are absolutely suggestive of bias, especially since they were controlled for various factors like the ones you mentioned (see above). The onus is on you to show that they don't say what they seem to say.

[Mavorpen]

My point is that the stats lack sufficient evidence to indicate racial bias in the justice system.

You haven't even demonstrated that you've read any of the relevant research on that topic.

As such, the arrest and sentencing statistics show that they commit crimes more frequently.

No it doesn't.

It is on the person presenting a claim of bias to demonstrate, that all things being equal, whites will receive preferential treatment compared to non-whites.

And one person has. You repeated your claim that their source didn't account for things that the he explicitly quoted the source controlling and accounting for.

I don't need to do additional research as the numbers are right there. These crap claims pop up all the damn time and have never once shown anything other than peoples' desire to sensationalize incomplete data that they don't understand. So until you can show me that the DOJ statistics, published yearly, demonstrate racial biases against minorities rather than simply higher instances of criminal behavior among said groups.

Yeah, we're not the ones that don't understand the data.

[Gothex]

Racism won't truly become a thing of the past until many people first discard the childish notion that you can't hold beliefs that are ground in racism without being an evil KKK white supremacist.

Indeed. I probably would have difficulty with finding anyone who would refuse to do business with a black man, but not someone who would have some difficulty with the idea of letting his daughter marry one, although not quite easy, per se. Someone who would simply be a bit disinclined to give blacks the benefit of the doubt would likely be easier to find than not.

[Thermodolia]

Not saying that. What I'm saying is Al Sharpton tends to go about it in a not so great way kinda trying to stir up some things. Yes I know his name is Al. I'm just writing this on the go

If things don't get stirred up, they tend to go unnoticed by the media. So long as he's not calling for violence--and, indeed, he's consistently called for peaceful demonstrations and denounced violence while understanding the motivations for it--he's doing what he sees as necessary to draw attention to police abuse and systemic racism. He's a bit gauche for my tastes, but then again, he's not representing me personally, so I don't really have a say in the matter.

I agree with you on that. Was trying to say something like that, just couldn't.

[The Cobalt Sky]

Did you miss this part?
“For every 10,000 residents, about 3,400 more black people are stopped than whites, and 360 more Latinos are stopped than whites. Stopped blacks are 127% more likely to be frisked -- and stopped Latinos are 43% more likely to be frisked -- than stopped whites. Stopped blacks are 76% more likely to be searched, and stopped Latinos are 16% more likely to be searched than stopped whites.
Stopped blacks are 29% more likely to be arrested, and stopped Latinos are 32% more likely to be arrested than stopped whites.
Now consider this: Although stopped blacks were 127% more likely to be frisked than stopped whites, they were 42.3% less likely to be found with a weapon after they were frisked, 25% less likely to be found with drugs and 33% less likely to be found with other contraband. We found similar patterns for Latinos.
Not only did we find that African Americans and Latinos were subjected to more stops, frisks, searches and arrests than whites, we also found that these additional police actions aren't because of the fact that people of color live in higher-crime areas or because they more often carry drugs or weapons, or any other legitimate reason that we can discern from the rich set of data we examined.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/23 ... oe-ayres23
Stopped and searched more. That's clearly bias.
And there is clearly a disparity with drug sentencing:
""The race issue isn't just that the judge is going, 'Oh, black man, I'm gonna sentence you higher,'" she said. "The police go into low-income minority neighborhoods and that's where they make most of their drug arrests. If they arrest you, now you have a 'prior,' so if you plead or get arrested again, you're gonna have a higher sentence. There's a kind of cumulative effect.""
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/1 ... 41346.html
You also have yet to provide a legitimate counterexample.

I've providing criticisms, your stats still don't answer the questions. That's great that you can show they get stopped more frequently,

And if we're getting stopped more frequently, that clearly shows there's at least some basic level of bias. If that is present, then it's not much of a stretch that other aspects of the system may not be fair and balanced.

You can't make claims of racial bias based solely on the fact that they get stopped more often, arrested more often, or have harsher sentences based solely on their race.

Unless you're saying that black people are just 20% more violent, then yes, you can make those claims. These are similar crimes we're talking about.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3789858002

The data has to show, that all things being equal, that a non-white will receive harsher treatment.

I've already proved that we're searched more so again, it shouldn't be such a wild idea that other aspects of the system are also skewed. If the police are searching and stopping black people more, then that means there's more focus on black people in general. Therefore, the notion that black people just generally commit more crimes than white people is ridiculous, because the system clearly tends to persecute black people.

[Thermodolia]

Racism won't truly become a thing of the past until many people first discard the childish notion that you can't hold beliefs that are ground in racism without being an evil KKK white supremacist.

Indeed. I probably would have difficulty with finding anyone who would refuse to do business with a black man, but not someone who would have some difficulty with the idea of letting his daughter marry one, although not quite easy, per se. Someone who would simply be a bit disinclined to give blacks the benefit of the doubt would likely be easier to find than not.

I would base my ideas about the man my daughter would marry on the quality and character of the person. But then again it's not my choice but hers.

[Turmenista]

The system is rigged to SPECIFICALLY target black males and other minorities, keep them oppressed and down, and keep the whites superior, as usual.

Take it from me. My mom got stopped by a cop in the middle of a road trip right in the middle of racistville North Carolina, to visit my grandmother's grave.

He said, "Ma'am, in the state of North Carolina, law requires that you stop at a red light" or some other idiotic bullshit in his southern accent.

He gave my mom a warning. If it wasn't so late, and if we weren't in the car, she'd probably have gotten a ticket by Mr. Copper, or who knows.

Now, I'm not saying that I hate whites. Not all whites are racists, but most racists in America are white. On the contrary, Not all blacks are gun-toting illiterate gangsters, just most blacks are, in my area (atlanta).

Also, Blacks can be racist too. -points to self-

[Thermodolia]

The system is rigged to SPECIFICALLY target black males and other minorities, keep them oppressed and down, and keep the whites superior, as usual.

Take it from me. My mom got stopped by a cop in the middle of a road trip right in the middle of racistville North Carolina, to visit my grandmother's grave.

He said, "Ma'am, in the state of North Carolina, law requires that you stop at a red light" or some other idiotic bullshit in his southern accent.

He gave my mom a warning. If it wasn't so late, and if we weren't in the car, she'd probably have gotten a ticket by Mr. Copper, or who knows.

Now, I'm not saying that I hate whites. Not all whites are racists, but most racists in America are white. On the contrary, Not all blacks are gun-toting illiterate gangsters, just most blacks are, in my area (atlanta).

Also, Blacks can be racist too. -points to self-

Atlanta's problem is mostly gang violence related. Maybe she might have gotten a ticket, maybe not. I have known the North Carolina PD's to be very strict in following the law.

[The Cobalt Sky]

Seems like a lot of the criminal justice system needs changing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1 ... af0QPhJ22s

[Saiwania]

If we learn to accept each other more, the world will become a better place. If we break down the barriers of wanting to avoid each other, things will get better. I've found that it's the people who want to segregate themselves from the rest of America are actually the source of a lot of America's problems, and quite possibly a majority of the world's problems.

Or maybe certain communities want to be mostly left alone and aren't interested in any outsiders?

[Kelinfort]

If we learn to accept each other more, the world will become a better place. If we break down the barriers of wanting to avoid each other, things will get better. I've found that it's the people who want to segregate themselves from the rest of America are actually the source of a lot of America's problems, and quite possibly a majority of the world's problems.

Or maybe certain communities want to be mostly left alone and aren't interested in any outsiders?

Seems odd that groups of people have intermingled throughout all of history then...

[Big Jim P]

Learn what racial/ethnic group you belong to and do not feel any shame in embracing that.

What?

So are you going to tell some poor person of darker-toned skin to embrace the fact he was racially abused in the 50's America?

Only if they are 56 years old or older.

[The Cobalt Sky]

If we learn to accept each other more, the world will become a better place. If we break down the barriers of wanting to avoid each other, things will get better. I've found that it's the people who want to segregate themselves from the rest of America are actually the source of a lot of America's problems, and quite possibly a majority of the world's problems.

Or maybe certain communities want to be mostly left alone and aren't interested in any outsiders?

I think those communities need to remember that we aren't living in the dark ages anymore...

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If we learn to accept each other more, the world will become a better place. If we break down the barriers of wanting to avoid each other, things will get better. I've found that it's the people who want to segregate themselves from the rest of America are actually the source of a lot of America's problems, and quite possibly a majority of the world's problems.

Or maybe certain communities want to be mostly left alone and aren't interested in any outsiders?

Well, unless you can stop globalization in its tracks that's not happening.

We're becoming a global culture now, to wind back the clock to where communities are sheltered from outside influence is a pipe dream.

[The Cobalt Sky]

This may also help to clarify things:
http://userscontent2.emaze.com/images/3 ... ea8b0a.png

[Distruzio]

Learn what racial/ethnic group you belong to and do not feel any shame in embracing that.

What?

So are you going to tell some poor person of darker-toned skin to embrace the fact he was racially abused in the 50's America?

Was he alive then?

[Arcanda]

A country founded in white nationalist beliefs that had a 90% white population at the peak of its racist sentiment not many decades ago has major problems of white supremacist portions of populace oppressing the disadvantaged minorities? Color me shocked!

Abolitionnists existed back then, and if you consider this factor, then all of Europe should be racist.
Also, the US have come a long way since 1776.No more slavery or segregation, women can vote, etc...


On the subject of racism, yes it is a problem and yes it needs to be adressed.I wouldn't say it is engrained very deep for that America always received new kinds of immigrants and thus at every "wave" of immigrants the previous one became racist toward the new one.As an influx of minorities come, I think there won't be any majority in the country soon, for that white people will "only" be the dominant minority.

I think that in order to have less racial profiling there needs to be some more diversity in the police force.Have a majority African-American police precinct for African-American areas and the problem will be gone, for exemple.But that may look like segregation and the "separate and equal" stuff which is also a problem.