NATION

PASSWORD

Evolution (and abiongenesis, Cosmology, etc) vs ID, again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
Post a reply
User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 40533
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Evolution (and abiongenesis, Cosmology, etc) vs ID, again

Postby Neutraligon » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:45 pm

So once again we started getting into evolution and ID in another thread. The claim in that thread was the evolutionists (whatever that means) never look at the flaws of evolution and ruthlessly attack "other viewpoints" The person further claim that there is evidence of ID. So I am making this thread instead of having another thread derailed.

What is your opinion on ID and evolution?

Me I believe the Theory of evolution through natural selection is the best model to explain the current facts. It is different from abiogenesis which explain how the first living thing came to be. I have not seen any evidence that ID holds true.

Some sources (thanks Benuty)
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=ev ... sdt=0%2C41
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... 1&as_sdtp=
Last edited by Neutraligon on Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though
Top
User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:47 pm

Why Gon, why?
*wails in despair—realizes A&B's no longer around—gets slightly happier*
Top
User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 40533
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:48 pm

Merizoc wrote:Why Gon, why?
*wails in despair—realizes A&B's no longer around—gets slightly happier*


Because it is already threadjacking another thread.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though
Top
User avatar
Geilinor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41328
Founded: Feb 20, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Geilinor » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:49 pm

ID is still religion, so evolution.
Last edited by Geilinor on Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Member of the Free Democratic Party. Not left. Not right. Forward.
Economic Left/Right: -1.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41
Top
User avatar
The Nuclear Fist
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33214
Founded: May 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nuclear Fist » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:49 pm

ID is a crock of religious horseshit masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is (IIRC) the best evidenced and most accepted origin theory for life and evolution is the best supported theory for how life came to arrive in its modern form.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE
Top
User avatar
Threlizdun
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15623
Founded: Jun 14, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Threlizdun » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:51 pm

I accept the scientific fact that evolution occurs and understand that the theory of evolution via natural selection offers the best explanation of how this phenomenon occurs in nature.
Communalist, Social Ecologist, Bioregionalist,
Sex-Positive Feminist, Queer, Trans-woman, Polyamorous

This site stresses me out, so I rarely come on here anymore. I'll try to be civil and respectful towards those I'm debating on here. If you don't extend the same courtesy then I'll probably just ignore you.

If we've been friendly in the past and you want to keep in touch, shoot me a telegram
Top
User avatar
Sebastianbourg
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5717
Founded: Apr 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Sebastianbourg » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:54 pm

Evolution.
Top
User avatar
Killdash
Minister
 
Posts: 3249
Founded: Feb 03, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Killdash » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:55 pm

Threlizdun wrote:I accept the scientific fact that evolution occurs and understand that the theory of evolution via natural selection offers the best explanation of how this phenomenon occurs in nature.


"Fact". At least give me some proof of your theory, and recognize the difference between Natural selection and evolution.
How do you take your tea?: Seriously, very seriously.
Who the hell do you think you are?: I see myself as a mix of Don Quixote, Stephen Fry and 12 year old boy mixed into one very strange mind.
Are you always so modest?: Yes, though it takes a man of some character to pull it off.
Hey, your insensitive remark/insult/racial slur has me in a tizzy: Well, if you wish to cyber insult me, then do your worst.
Auremenas bitch
Roguishly good looking gentleman
Nationstates premier assassin for hire
For a small fee, of course.
5th spouse of Kannap (for 48 hours, but still counts)
Top
User avatar
Geilinor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41328
Founded: Feb 20, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Geilinor » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:56 pm

Killdash wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:I accept the scientific fact that evolution occurs and understand that the theory of evolution via natural selection offers the best explanation of how this phenomenon occurs in nature.


"Fact". At least give me some proof of your theory, and recognize the difference between Natural selection and evolution.

Natural selection is just one part of evolution.
Member of the Free Democratic Party. Not left. Not right. Forward.
Economic Left/Right: -1.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41
Top
User avatar
Trevor Phillip Enterprises
Minister
 
Posts: 2280
Founded: Oct 30, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Trevor Phillip Enterprises » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:56 pm

Evolution through natural selection is so far the best model as it has the plenty of scientific observation to back it up.
Last edited by Trevor Phillip Enterprises on Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Currently being edited by Pablo Escobar since Thu Jul 09, 1983 10:37 am.
CALLING ALL ANTI-PONYISTS!
-∮ The Crumpet Cult ∮-
Top
User avatar
Othelos
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12729
Founded: Feb 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Othelos » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:57 pm

Killdash wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:I accept the scientific fact that evolution occurs and understand that the theory of evolution via natural selection offers the best explanation of how this phenomenon occurs in nature.


"Fact". At least give me some proof of your theory, and recognize the difference between Natural selection and evolution.

natural selection is a component of evolutionary theory........
American & German, ich kann auch Deutsch. I have a B.S. in finance.
Pro: Human rights, equality, LGBT rights, socialized healthcare, the EU in theory, green energy, public transportation, the internet as a utility
Anti: Authoritarian regimes and systems, the Chinese government, identity politics, die AfD, populism, organized religion, Erdogan, assault weapon ownership
Free Tibet and Hong Kong | Keep Taiwan Independent
Top
User avatar
Killdash
Minister
 
Posts: 3249
Founded: Feb 03, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Killdash » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:57 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:ID is a crock of religious horseshit masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is (IIRC) the best evidenced and most accepted origin theory for life and evolution is the best supported theory for how life came to arrive in its modern form.



Show me an example of life appearing from non living chemicals, in direct violation of biological standards.
How do you take your tea?: Seriously, very seriously.
Who the hell do you think you are?: I see myself as a mix of Don Quixote, Stephen Fry and 12 year old boy mixed into one very strange mind.
Are you always so modest?: Yes, though it takes a man of some character to pull it off.
Hey, your insensitive remark/insult/racial slur has me in a tizzy: Well, if you wish to cyber insult me, then do your worst.
Auremenas bitch
Roguishly good looking gentleman
Nationstates premier assassin for hire
For a small fee, of course.
5th spouse of Kannap (for 48 hours, but still counts)
Top
User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 40533
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:58 pm

Killdash wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:I accept the scientific fact that evolution occurs and understand that the theory of evolution via natural selection offers the best explanation of how this phenomenon occurs in nature.


"Fact". At least give me some proof of your theory, and recognize the difference between Natural selection and evolution.


THere is a difference between a theory and fact. Facts are things that are demonstrable, and the fact of evolution is that living things change over time, all we have to do is look at wolves evolution to dogs, or the changes different dog breeds have undergone, or drug resistant bacteria and viruses. A theory is an explanation for facts. Thus evolution, or the change in living things over successive generations is fact while the Theory of Evolution through natural selection is a theory that explains that fact.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though
Top
User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:58 pm

Killdash wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:I accept the scientific fact that evolution occurs and understand that the theory of evolution via natural selection offers the best explanation of how this phenomenon occurs in nature.


"Fact". At least give me some proof of your theory, and recognize the difference between Natural selection and evolution.

You are aware that natural selection is the mechanism through which evolution occurs, right?

….

Ah, who am I kidding?
Top
User avatar
Geilinor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41328
Founded: Feb 20, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Geilinor » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:58 pm

Killdash wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:ID is a crock of religious horseshit masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is (IIRC) the best evidenced and most accepted origin theory for life and evolution is the best supported theory for how life came to arrive in its modern form.



Show me an example of life appearing from non living chemicals, in direct violation of biological standards.

DNA and RNA are like any other molecule, only larger.
Member of the Free Democratic Party. Not left. Not right. Forward.
Economic Left/Right: -1.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41
Top
User avatar
Alyakia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18422
Founded: Jul 12, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Alyakia » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:58 pm

Killdash wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:I accept the scientific fact that evolution occurs and understand that the theory of evolution via natural selection offers the best explanation of how this phenomenon occurs in nature.


"Fact". At least give me some proof of your theory, and recognize the difference between Natural selection and evolution.


no really what is the difference

natural selection is one of the keystones of evolution

i feel like from your posts in the other thread, you are confusing evolution with the creation of the universe. while evolution and a non-belief in god are commonly paired, they are not mutually exclusive. this is how the catholic church gets away with saying yeah evolution is basically right. what i think you're actually trying to say is not to forget the difference between evolution and the creation of the universe, but you're just using the wrong terms.
pro: good
anti: bad

The UK and EU are Better Together

"Margaret Thatcher showed the world that women are not too soft or the weaker sex, and can be as heartless, horrible, and amoral as any male politician."
Top
User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:59 pm

Killdash wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:ID is a crock of religious horseshit masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is (IIRC) the best evidenced and most accepted origin theory for life and evolution is the best supported theory for how life came to arrive in its modern form.



Show me an example of life appearing from non living chemicals, in direct violation of biological standards.

Show me an example of a bearded sky fairy.
Top
User avatar
Killdash
Minister
 
Posts: 3249
Founded: Feb 03, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Killdash » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:00 pm

Othelos wrote:
Killdash wrote:
"Fact". At least give me some proof of your theory, and recognize the difference between Natural selection and evolution.

natural selection is a component of evolutionary theory........



As well as in integral part of ID. In ID, it is used as evidence of a thinking designer, who added a adaptation toggle to his species. Note that variation in a species does not prove species changing into other species, a concept that has never been observed.
How do you take your tea?: Seriously, very seriously.
Who the hell do you think you are?: I see myself as a mix of Don Quixote, Stephen Fry and 12 year old boy mixed into one very strange mind.
Are you always so modest?: Yes, though it takes a man of some character to pull it off.
Hey, your insensitive remark/insult/racial slur has me in a tizzy: Well, if you wish to cyber insult me, then do your worst.
Auremenas bitch
Roguishly good looking gentleman
Nationstates premier assassin for hire
For a small fee, of course.
5th spouse of Kannap (for 48 hours, but still counts)
Top
User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 40533
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:00 pm

Killdash wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:ID is a crock of religious horseshit masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is (IIRC) the best evidenced and most accepted origin theory for life and evolution is the best supported theory for how life came to arrive in its modern form.



Show me an example of life appearing from non living chemicals, in direct violation of biological standards.


We can show that the building blocks of life are capable of coming from non-living material. And no abiogenesis is not the same thing as spontaneous generation. Give me evidence that an intelligent designer made everything.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though
Top
User avatar
Confederate Ramenia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1939
Founded: Mar 29, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Confederate Ramenia » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:00 pm

Everyone here agrees with evolution, and so do I. No debate is occuring, so I must activate my contrarian powers!

Threlizdun wrote:I accept the scientific fact that evolution occurs and understand that the theory of evolution via natural selection offers the best explanation of how this phenomenon occurs in nature.

How is evolution a scientific fact? Scientific facts must be completely, guaranteed proven. And how is the theory of evolution superior to other theories?

The Nuclear Fist wrote:ID is a crock of religious horseshit masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is (IIRC) the best evidenced and most accepted origin theory for life and evolution is the best supported theory for how life came to arrive in its modern form.

Care to share some of that evidence? And just because something is most accepted doesn't make it true. In medieval times the theory that the sun revolved around the earth was most accepted, and it isn't true!

Geilinor wrote:ID is still religion, so evolution.

How does something be religious automatically validate one of many other options?
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a genuine workers' state in which all the people are completely liberated from exploitation and oppression. The workers, peasants, soldiers and intellectuals are the true masters of their destiny and are in a unique position to defend their interests.
The Flutterlands wrote:Because human life and dignity is something that should be universally valued above all things in society.

Benito Mussolini wrote:Everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable.

I disown most of my previous posts
Top
User avatar
Russels Orbiting Teapot
Senator
 
Posts: 4024
Founded: Jan 20, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:00 pm

Killdash wrote:Show me an example of life appearing from non living chemicals, in direct violation of biological standards.


What biological standards are you speaking of, exactly?
Top
User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 40533
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:01 pm

Killdash wrote:
Othelos wrote:natural selection is a component of evolutionary theory........



As well as in integral part of ID. In ID, it is used as evidence of a thinking designer, who added a adaptation toggle to his species. Note that variation in a species does not prove species changing into other species, a concept that has never been observed.


We have observed speciation events
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though
Top
User avatar
Geilinor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41328
Founded: Feb 20, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Geilinor » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:01 pm

Killdash wrote:
Othelos wrote:natural selection is a component of evolutionary theory........



As well as in integral part of ID. In ID, it is used as evidence of a thinking designer, who added a adaptation toggle to his species. Note that variation in a species does not prove species changing into other species, a concept that has never been observed.

Speciation follows from adaptation.
Image
Last edited by Geilinor on Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Member of the Free Democratic Party. Not left. Not right. Forward.
Economic Left/Right: -1.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41
Top
User avatar
Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11902
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:01 pm

Killdash wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:ID is a crock of religious horseshit masquerading as science.

Abiogenesis is (IIRC) the best evidenced and most accepted origin theory for life and evolution is the best supported theory for how life came to arrive in its modern form.



Show me an example of life appearing from non living chemicals, in direct violation of biological standards.


Evolution does not consider abiogenesis. I can pull up links for you though if you would like.
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
A 0.076 (or 0.067) civilization, according to THIS Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
Post responsibly.
Top
User avatar
Killdash
Minister
 
Posts: 3249
Founded: Feb 03, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Killdash » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:02 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Killdash wrote:

Show me an example of life appearing from non living chemicals, in direct violation of biological standards.

DNA and RNA are like any other molecule, only larger.



Completly ignoring their mind boggling complexity.
How do you take your tea?: Seriously, very seriously.
Who the hell do you think you are?: I see myself as a mix of Don Quixote, Stephen Fry and 12 year old boy mixed into one very strange mind.
Are you always so modest?: Yes, though it takes a man of some character to pull it off.
Hey, your insensitive remark/insult/racial slur has me in a tizzy: Well, if you wish to cyber insult me, then do your worst.
Auremenas bitch
Roguishly good looking gentleman
Nationstates premier assassin for hire
For a small fee, of course.
5th spouse of Kannap (for 48 hours, but still counts)
Top
Next
Post a reply

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aldygast, Dimetrodon Empire, El Lazaro, Enormous Gentiles, Eurocom, Forsher, Maryland-Delaware, Orcuo, Thermodolia, Yasuragi

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

Advertisement

Remove ads