Communism and Socialism megathread

[Slobozhanshchyna]

Why can't there be a leftist-only thread ;_;

[Constantinopolis]

But yes, I do agree that the two world wars will probably be regarded as the most significant aspects of the 20th century. Although, with the benefit of several centuries of historical distance, they might be regarded as a single event with a short interruption in the middle.

A bit like the thing we call "The 30 Years' War", which could more accurately be described as "That 30 Year Period with Lots of Wars in It".

[Arkolon]

My thoughts exactly. There's also the founding of the modern European Union, the 1960s cultural revolution, the insane amount of music genres and cultures that saw the light of day, first man on the moon. . . I mean the only way I could see M-L being relevant in a history book 100 years from today is a small subsection on a 'Did You Know?' side-column on the Cold War.

You... think that the largest political movement of the century is less important than music genres? Because, after all, when talking about the 18th century we totally devote more attention to Haydn and Mozart than to the American and French revolutions, right? Oh wait...

Might depend on where you live, but yeah, music genres, and music in general, played a huge role in the cultural revolutions in the 20th century. M-L would be a subsection, juxtaposed against McCarthyism or the American capitalist model. There is no reason why M-L would receive more or less attention than, say, Keynes and Hayek in the 1930s, Kuznets in the 60s, Monetarism and Friedman in the 70s, economic liberalism and globalisation in the 80s, the Internet in the 90s. . . Faced against its competition, M-L as a topic would rank pretty low. If anything, the history book will just badly label it 'Communism', as if it's the only form of communism, and maybe 'Communism vs Capitalism' in the Cold War.

I'm also curious about how you imagine that history books can cover the aftermath of WW1, the Chinese Civil War, WW2 and the Cold War without mentioning M-L.

You could mention it. My point is that the mention would be unimportant; M-L hardly played the most pivotal, decisive role in the 20th century.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Why can't there be a leftist-only thread ;_;

Because no thread ownership.

But yes, I do agree that the two world wars will probably be regarded as the most significant aspects of the 20th century. Although, with the benefit of several centuries of historical distance, they might be regarded as a single event with a short interruption in the middle.

A bit like the thing we call "The 30 Years' War", which could more accurately be described as "That 30 Year Period with Lots of Wars in It".

I actually could see that happening at some point later down the line. There'll be a lot from the 20th century for people to remember, that much I know.

[Dremovia]

The Reds have their value to keep NWO out of my nation, but on the otherhand no. Keeping your friends close is good but your enemies closer is even better

[Arkolon]

Might as well add the sentence on history book mislabeling: "[...] badly label it 'Communism', as if it's the only form of communism, and maybe 'Communism vs Capitalism' in the Cold War-- as it is now." We study WW2 and the Cold War extensively in the last year of our school system, and there was more attention granted to communism when we studied the 1860s rather than the 1960s.

[Slobozhanshchyna]

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a Capitalist Society.

Discuss.

[Lytenburgh]

Might as well add the sentence on history book mislabeling: "[...] badly label it 'Communism', as if it's the only form of communism, and maybe 'Communism vs Capitalism' in the Cold War-- as it is now." We study WW2 and the Cold War extensively in the last year of our school system, and there was more attention granted to communism when we studied the 1860s rather than the 1960s.

Uh-huh. Suddenly, your suggestion that Music genres would be covered more in future then various forms of communism makes sense.

How old are you?

[Jinwoy]

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a Capitalist Society.

Discuss.

200% bollocks.
The USSR certainly wasn't socialist, but it was no where near capitalist.
For lack of a better term, it was a "Degenerative Worker's State" by Trotskyist definition.

[Old Tyrannia]

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a Capitalist Society.

Discuss.

Capitalism requires the private ownership of the means of production. This was not the case in the USSR, where the means of production were communally owned and operated by the State. Therefore, the USSR is an example of a socialist state, even if most modern socialists criticise the actual form of socialism the USSR possessed.

[Arkolon]

Might as well add the sentence on history book mislabeling: "[...] badly label it 'Communism', as if it's the only form of communism, and maybe 'Communism vs Capitalism' in the Cold War-- as it is now." We study WW2 and the Cold War extensively in the last year of our school system, and there was more attention granted to communism when we studied the 1860s rather than the 1960s.

Uh-huh. Suddenly, your suggestion that Music genres would be covered more in future then various forms of communism makes sense.

Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, Rockers, Punks, through to Jazz, Ska, and Rock'n'Roll all played crucial roles in the cultural revolution, which was a defining part of the 20th century. The 60s cultural revolution without its requisite and respective music and art simply wouldn't have been. No single subculture would be singled out, but there is no way you can talk about the 1960s and the sociological revolutions that occurred in the Western world without referencing its surrounding art.

M-L made an appearance during the Cold War. It will not be, and is far from being now, the defining political movement of the 20th century. Its role in the Cold War will be similar to that of art in the cultural revolution; there, referenced, mostly symbolic, but minor.

[Traditional Heavy Metal]

Uh-huh. Suddenly, your suggestion that Music genres would be covered more in future then various forms of communism makes sense.

Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, Rockers, Punks, through to Jazz, Ska, and Rock'n'Roll all played crucial roles in the cultural revolution, which was a defining part of the 20th century. The 60s cultural revolution without its requisite and respective music and art simply wouldn't have been. No single subculture would be singled out, but there is no way you can talk about the 1960s and the sociological revolutions that occurred in the Western world without referencing its surrounding art.

M-L made an appearance during the Cold War. It will not be, and is far from being now, the defining political movement of the 20th century. Its role in the Cold War will be similar to that of art in the cultural revolution; there, referenced, mostly symbolic, but minor.

Don't forget heavy metal and metalheads

[Lytenburgh]

Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, Rockers, Punks, through to Jazz, Ska, and Rock'n'Roll all played crucial roles in the cultural revolution, which was a defining part of the 20th century. The 60s cultural revolution without its requisite and respective music and art simply wouldn't have been. No single subculture would be singled out, but there is no way you can talk about the 1960s and the sociological revolutions that occurred in the Western world without referencing its surrounding art.

M-L made an appearance during the Cold War. It will not be, and is far from being now, the defining political movement of the 20th century. Its role in the Cold War will be similar to that of art in the cultural revolution; there, referenced, mostly symbolic, but minor.

If you ask people in any village throught ex-USSR "what role did Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, Rockers, Punks, through to Jazz, Ska, and Rock'n'Roll play in your life" they would answer something along the "#%&@, and your mother too!" line.

If you ask them "How did Lenin and October Revolution affected you and your village?" be raedy for a very long lecture.

I find your approach too "teenage" and Western Arkolon.

[Conscentia]

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a Capitalist Society.
Discuss.

Capitalism requires the private ownership of the means of production. This was not the case in the USSR, where the means of production were communally owned and operated by the State. Therefore, the USSR is an example of a socialist state, even if most modern socialists criticise the actual form of socialism the USSR possessed.

Are you not aware of state capitalism?

[Arkolon]

Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, Rockers, Punks, through to Jazz, Ska, and Rock'n'Roll all played crucial roles in the cultural revolution, which was a defining part of the 20th century. The 60s cultural revolution without its requisite and respective music and art simply wouldn't have been. No single subculture would be singled out, but there is no way you can talk about the 1960s and the sociological revolutions that occurred in the Western world without referencing its surrounding art.

M-L made an appearance during the Cold War. It will not be, and is far from being now, the defining political movement of the 20th century. Its role in the Cold War will be similar to that of art in the cultural revolution; there, referenced, mostly symbolic, but minor.

If you ask people in any village throught ex-USSR "what role did Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, Rockers, Punks, through to Jazz, Ska, and Rock'n'Roll play in your life" they would answer something along the "#%&@, and your mother too!" line.

If you ask them "How did Lenin and October Revolution affected you and your village?" be raedy for a very long lecture.

I find your approach too "teenage" and Western Arkolon.

Const's point was: "You know, on a related note, I wonder if future generations will consider the art, architecture and general style of Marxist-Leninist states to be emblematic of the 20th century. Several hundred years into the future, when people will hear the term "20th century", what will be the first thing to come to mind? It may well be something related to Marxism-Leninism, since it was arguably the defining political movement of the 20th century." which, as I explained, is far from it, especially considering not only the varying other political movements in the 20th century, of which M-L was just one, but also the varying art, architectural and general styles of the 20th century, of which M-L hardly comes close to being a relevant one. In 700 years from now, a history student would learn just as much about M-L in itself as they would the countercultures of the 1960s.

As a Westerner with Western history books and Western culture, defined by Western history and preceding a Western future, it shouldn't come to surprise you that I take a Western perspective.

[Lytenburgh]

As a Westerner with Western history books and Western culture, defined by Western history and preceding a Western future, it shouldn't come to surprise you that I take a Western perspective.

Since when did "the West" equals the world?

[New Terricon]

M-L made an appearance during the Cold War. It will not be, and is far from being now, the defining political movement of the 20th century. Its role in the Cold War will be similar to that of art in the cultural revolution; there, referenced, mostly symbolic, but minor.

Perhaps in our tiny Western World the Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, and whatnot were very important and remain so today as the defining 20th century movement. But for the rest of the planet, Communism and its offshoots were very much important to the majority. The better part of the Eurafroasian supercontinent had directly expirenced the Socialist or Communistic governments that the Soviet Union encouraged. Even with a lot of those governments and their implications now gone, many people will go on to have a lasting impression of their old regimes. So I will maintain that M-L and its dogmas were the most important ideas of the 20th century.

[Draakonite]

Capitalism requires the private ownership of the means of production. This was not the case in the USSR, where the means of production were communally owned and operated by the State. Therefore, the USSR is an example of a socialist state, even if most modern socialists criticise the actual form of socialism the USSR possessed.

Are you not aware of state capitalism?

Saying that the Soviet union was capitalist because it was state capitalist, might be no better than saying that it was socialist because it had socialist in its name...

[Arkolon]

As a Westerner with Western history books and Western culture, defined by Western history and preceding a Western future, it shouldn't come to surprise you that I take a Western perspective.

Since when did "the West" equals the world?

I don't know. Who told you that?

[Arkolon]

M-L made an appearance during the Cold War. It will not be, and is far from being now, the defining political movement of the 20th century. Its role in the Cold War will be similar to that of art in the cultural revolution; there, referenced, mostly symbolic, but minor.

Perhaps in our tiny Western World the Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, and whatnot were very important and remain so today as the defining 20th century movement. But for the rest of the planet, Communism and its offshoots were very much important to the majority. The better part of the Eurafroasian supercontinent had directly expirenced the Socialist or Communistic governments that the Soviet Union encouraged. Even with a lot of those governments and their implications now gone, many people will go on to have a lasting impression of their old regimes. So I will maintain that M-L and its dogmas were the most important ideas of the 20th century.

USSR population, 1991: 293 million
US/EU population, 1991: 630 million

It's not a 'tiny Western world'.

[United Marxist Nations]

Perhaps in our tiny Western World the Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, and whatnot were very important and remain so today as the defining 20th century movement. But for the rest of the planet, Communism and its offshoots were very much important to the majority. The better part of the Eurafroasian supercontinent had directly expirenced the Socialist or Communistic governments that the Soviet Union encouraged. Even with a lot of those governments and their implications now gone, many people will go on to have a lasting impression of their old regimes. So I will maintain that M-L and its dogmas were the most important ideas of the 20th century.

USSR population, 1991: 293 million
US/EU population, 1991: 630 million

It's not a 'tiny Western world'.

Not adding in China (though, more of a derivitive and not actually Marxism-Leninism), Vietnam, or the Eastern Bloc?

[Conscentia]

Are you not aware of state capitalism?

Saying that the Soviet union was capitalist because it was state capitalist, might be no better than saying that it was socialist because it had socialist in its name...

lolwut?

[Lytenburgh]

I don't know. Who told you that?

You, with yours:

There is no reason why M-L would receive more or less attention than, say, Keynes and Hayek in the 1930s, Kuznets in the 60s, Monetarism and Friedman in the 70s, economic liberalism and globalisation in the 80s, the Internet in the 90s. . . Faced against its competition, M-L as a topic would rank pretty low. If anything, the history book will just badly label it 'Communism', as if it's the only form of communism, and maybe 'Communism vs Capitalism' in the Cold War.

and

Beatniks, Hipsters, Mods, Rockers, Punks, through to Jazz, Ska, and Rock'n'Roll all played crucial roles in the cultural revolution, which was a defining part of the 20th century. The 60s cultural revolution without its requisite and respective music and art simply wouldn't have been. No single subculture would be singled out, but there is no way you can talk about the 1960s and the sociological revolutions that occurred in the Western world without referencing its surrounding art.

M-L made an appearance during the Cold War. It will not be, and is far from being now, the defining political movement of the 20th century. Its role in the Cold War will be similar to that of art in the cultural revolution; there, referenced, mostly symbolic, but minor.

[Arkolon]

USSR population, 1991: 293 million
US/EU population, 1991: 630 million

It's not a 'tiny Western world'.

Not adding in China (though, more of a derivitive and not actually Marxism-Leninism), Vietnam, or the Eastern Bloc?

China wasn't M-L, and unless you can find 337 million people living in the Eastern Bloc I won't consider it necessary to add them.

[Arkolon]

I don't know. Who told you that?

You:

Since when does ex-Communist equal the world?