Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

It's not meant to be an analogy, it's meant to be two situations that I'm putting side-by-side and saying, "This is why this system of thinking is not consistent. It's also quite dangerous, because if you say you can do whatever you want with your body, even allowing harm to come to others or yourself, then by this line of thinking, there are no limits to what you can do, (ex: the movie "The Purge"). But there are limits to what you can do, and that is why we have laws." Something like that.

The Purge?! The Purge has shit to do with bodily sovereignty. Hurting another autonomous being is fundamentally against personal sovereignty. Oh and I do support legalising all narcotics.

Thus I am forced to laugh with you.

[Luminesa]

1.) Well, what do you think of, when you hear 'inherent dignity' and 'should protect'?
2.) By that same line of thinking, couldn't a baby outside the womb be considered the same thing?

1) Not sure hence why I said it depends.
2) nope since they are not directly removing nutrients from the body of the "host"

What do you mean it depends, exactly?

I dunno, babies remove sleep from their parents. That's something.

[Lost heros]

1: Dignity? And there's a very big distinction between a fetus and a baby. Specifically, one survives solely on the nutrients of someone else as a parasite, one isn't.
2: So does a parasite.
3: There's a difference between personal autonomy and bodily autonomy.

1.) Well, do you not believe that each person is born with some sort of inherent dignity that we should protect?
2.) And you could argue that both do that, just in different ways. A baby in the womb will take some of the nutrients from inside the mother, through the placenta. A baby out the womb will wake up momma at two in the morning because she wants her bottle, or because her diaper is full.
3.) Wouldn't 'personal autonomy' be a branch off the subject of 'bodily autonomy'?

1: What are you even saying.
2: The key difference is that the mother has a choice but the pregnant woman doesn't.
3: No. Personal Autonomy refers to our actions in a society, while bodily autonomy refers to our actions within our bodies.

[Liberusy]

I am pro-life and pro-choice. I support the right to life and the fetuses choice [which if given the choice they would choose to live]. In seriousness though I hate it when I am called [by pro-choicers] anti-choice or even anti-women. No I am pro-life, If you call me anti-choice then likewise I will call you pro-abortion, anti-life or pro-child murder.

[Luminesa]

The Purge?! The Purge has shit to do with bodily sovereignty. Hurting another autonomous being is fundamentally against personal sovereignty. Oh and I do support legalising all narcotics.

Thus I am forced to laugh with you.

The reason I put "The Purge" was, again, to use an extreme to explain my point. In "The Purge", there are no limits to what the characters can do. Of course, it might not have been the best example, but it all comes back to the idea "Hey, it's our bodies, we can do what we want with them." Bodily sovereignty effectively says, then, "I can do whatever I want without limits."

A better example might be "Crime And Punishment", which obviously hits more of the philosophical spectrum than "The Purge".

And legalizing heroin wouldn't stop all the deaths from happening. People would still overdose on it. Thus, bad idea. But that's another discussion.

[Wawakanatote]

This'll end well.

No, a fetus is not a person. Yes, a fetus is made of human cells. No, it does not think. Yes, a woman has bodily sovereignty.

There we go. Preemptive strike.

[Luminesa]

1.) Well, do you not believe that each person is born with some sort of inherent dignity that we should protect?
2.) And you could argue that both do that, just in different ways. A baby in the womb will take some of the nutrients from inside the mother, through the placenta. A baby out the womb will wake up momma at two in the morning because she wants her bottle, or because her diaper is full.
3.) Wouldn't 'personal autonomy' be a branch off the subject of 'bodily autonomy'?

1: What are you even saying.
2: The key difference is that the mother has a choice but the pregnant woman doesn't.
3: No. Personal Autonomy refers to our actions in a society, while bodily autonomy refers to our actions within our bodies.

1.) Why do we have laws against killing people?
2.) Oh, I see what you're saying. (Though a pregnant woman is a mother.) But if you're the parent, and your baby is up crying at night for a bottle, is it really a good decision to just let them cry, rather than taking care of them?
3.) Okay. I see now. Bodily autonomy is "my body, my choice". Personal autonomy is "I can do whatever I want, and you can't stop me." Or something along those lines. If that's the case, though, philosophically, bodily autonomy leads to personal autonomy.

[Luminesa]

Does a sperm and egg cell in a petri dish next to each other have inherent dignity? Why does this collection of DNA magically begin to have dignity when you push the one into the other so it can burrow in and start swapping DNA?

No, because if every egg had human dignity, I'd be committing mass murder every time I had my period. But when you put them together, you have a human being, which is now growing and developing.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

I am pro-life and pro-choice. I support the right to life and the fetuses choice [which if given the choice they would choose to live]. In seriousness though I hate it when I am called [by pro-choicers] anti-choice or even anti-women. No I am pro-life, If you call me anti-choice then likewise I will call you pro-abortion, anti-life or pro-child murder.

If you called me anti-life, that would be right. I sacrificed Yahweh.

1: What are you even saying.
2: The key difference is that the mother has a choice but the pregnant woman doesn't.
3: No. Personal Autonomy refers to our actions in a society, while bodily autonomy refers to our actions within our bodies.

1.) Why do we have laws against killing people?
2.) Oh, I see what you're saying. (Though a pregnant woman is a mother.) But if you're the parent, and your baby is up crying at night for a bottle, is it really a good decision to just let them cry, rather than taking care of them?
3.) Okay. I see now. Bodily autonomy is "my body, my choice". Personal autonomy is "I can do whatever I want, and you can't stop me." Or something along those lines. If that's the case, though, philosophically, bodily autonomy leads to personal autonomy.

1) I have yet to see relevance in this argument, but this argument is pretty contradictory if you call a fetus a person, however I make no implications in this argument.

Thus I am forced to laugh with you.

The reason I put "The Purge" was, again, to use an extreme to explain my point. In "The Purge", there are no limits to what the characters can do. Of course, it might not have been the best example, but it all comes back to the idea "Hey, it's our bodies, we can do what we want with them." Bodily sovereignty effectively says, then, "I can do whatever I want without limits."

A better example might be "Crime And Punishment", which obviously hits more of the philosophical spectrum than "The Purge".

And legalizing heroin wouldn't stop all the deaths from happening. People would still overdose on it. Thus, bad idea. But that's another discussion.

The Purge has as much to do with bodily autonomy as Napoleon being a hero.

1) Not sure hence why I said it depends.
2) nope since they are not directly removing nutrients from the body of the "host"

What do you mean it depends, exactly?

I dunno, babies remove sleep from their parents. That's something.

Babies removing sleep from parents really isn't a issue.

None of your points are relevant or upstanding or even good.

[Kelinfort]

Thus I am forced to laugh with you.

The reason I put "The Purge" was, again, to use an extreme to explain my point. In "The Purge", there are no limits to what the characters can do. Of course, it might not have been the best example, but it all comes back to the idea "Hey, it's our bodies, we can do what we want with them." Bodily sovereignty effectively says, then, "I can do whatever I want without limits."

A better example might be "Crime And Punishment", which obviously hits more of the philosophical spectrum than "The Purge".

And legalizing heroin wouldn't stop all the deaths from happening. People would still overdose on it. Thus, bad idea. But that's another discussion.

No, it doesn't. Your strawmen are getting annoying. Bodily sovereignty allows you to do what you wish so long as you do not harm another person. Your rights end where mine begin.

What does Dostoyevsky have to do with this?! The main character murders another person, inherently against this concept. As I have already said, we cannot consider a person alive until they are sapient. It is why we can end the life of someone in a vegetative state.

Never said it would, never said this was the discussion, just said that because you keep making shitty examples.

[Kelinfort]

I am pro-life and pro-choice. I support the right to life and the fetuses choice [which if given the choice they would choose to live]. In seriousness though I hate it when I am called [by pro-choicers] anti-choice or even anti-women. No I am pro-life, If you call me anti-choice then likewise I will call you pro-abortion, anti-life or pro-child murder.

Is not true you oppose the woman having any choice in this matter?

[Luminesa]

I am pro-life and pro-choice. I support the right to life and the fetuses choice [which if given the choice they would choose to live]. In seriousness though I hate it when I am called [by pro-choicers] anti-choice or even anti-women. No I am pro-life, If you call me anti-choice then likewise I will call you pro-abortion, anti-life or pro-child murder.

If you called me anti-life, that would be right. I sacrificed Yahweh.

1.) Why do we have laws against killing people?
2.) Oh, I see what you're saying. (Though a pregnant woman is a mother.) But if you're the parent, and your baby is up crying at night for a bottle, is it really a good decision to just let them cry, rather than taking care of them?
3.) Okay. I see now. Bodily autonomy is "my body, my choice". Personal autonomy is "I can do whatever I want, and you can't stop me." Or something along those lines. If that's the case, though, philosophically, bodily autonomy leads to personal autonomy.

1) I have yet to see relevance in this argument, but this argument is pretty contradictory if you call a fetus a person, however I make no implications in this argument.

The reason I put "The Purge" was, again, to use an extreme to explain my point. In "The Purge", there are no limits to what the characters can do. Of course, it might not have been the best example, but it all comes back to the idea "Hey, it's our bodies, we can do what we want with them." Bodily sovereignty effectively says, then, "I can do whatever I want without limits."

A better example might be "Crime And Punishment", which obviously hits more of the philosophical spectrum than "The Purge".

And legalizing heroin wouldn't stop all the deaths from happening. People would still overdose on it. Thus, bad idea. But that's another discussion.

The Purge has as much to do with bodily autonomy as Napoleon being a hero.

What do you mean it depends, exactly?

I dunno, babies remove sleep from their parents. That's something.

Babies removing sleep from parents really isn't a issue.


None of your points are relevant or upstanding or even good.

Well, you know how he said that babies in the womb are parasites? Well, by that logic, in which they take nutrients from the mother, babies outside of the womb also take nutrients from the parents, as do most young children, and even teenagers. So wouldn't that be calling me, who is a teenager, a parasite, because I still require for my mom to pay for some things for me? Besides, it's not like the fetus/baby is starving the mother. The way I've heard this said, it sounds like people think the fetus is a blood-sucking leech, or something.

[Lost heros]

1: What are you even saying.
2: The key difference is that the mother has a choice but the pregnant woman doesn't.
3: No. Personal Autonomy refers to our actions in a society, while bodily autonomy refers to our actions within our bodies.

1.) Why do we have laws against killing people?
2.) Oh, I see what you're saying. (Though a pregnant woman is a mother.) But if you're the parent, and your baby is up crying at night for a bottle, is it really a good decision to just let them cry, rather than taking care of them?
3.) Okay. I see now. Bodily autonomy is "my body, my choice". Personal autonomy is "I can do whatever I want, and you can't stop me." Or something along those lines. If that's the case, though, philosophically, bodily autonomy leads to personal autonomy.

1: Because society cannot function without people. It can function without parasitic fetuses.
2: (Not unless she wants to be one) Who says you're taking care of them? You could have a nanny or you might not even be the legal guardian. Genotypic resemblance should not force you.
3: You started well, but went down hill fast. I can't force you to give up a part of your body or do something with your body. However, I can restrict you from taking actions against other people, I.e. Stealing, etc.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

ell, by that logic, in which they take nutrients from the mother, babies outside of the womb also take nutrients from the parents, as do most young children, and even teenagers

Not really.

So wouldn't that be calling me, who is a teenager, a parasite, because I still require for my mom to pay for some things for me?

Money isn't a fucking nutrient. Stop fucking strawman bing things and make things that aren't, it's fucking annoying.

Besides, it's not like the fetus/baby is starving the mother. The way I've heard this said, it sounds like people think the fetus is a blood-sucking leech, or something.

What you hear is different from what one means

[Liberusy]

I am pro-life and pro-choice. I support the right to life and the fetuses choice [which if given the choice they would choose to live]. In seriousness though I hate it when I am called [by pro-choicers] anti-choice or even anti-women. No I am pro-life, If you call me anti-choice then likewise I will call you pro-abortion, anti-life or pro-child murder.

Is not true you oppose the woman having any choice in this matter?

Well should my mom be given the choice to kill me? It's just I value someone elses life more then the womens choice.

[Lucario Mewtwo and Zoroark]

I believe in the right to life

[Ifreann]

Is not true you oppose the woman having any choice in this matter?

Well should my mom be given the choice to kill me? It's just I value someone elses life more then the womens choice.

Should you be allowed to literally live inside your mother without her permission?

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

I am pro-life and pro-choice. I support the right to life and the fetuses choice [which if given the choice they would choose to live]. In seriousness though I hate it when I am called [by pro-choicers] anti-choice or even anti-women. No I am pro-life, If you call me anti-choice then likewise I will call you pro-abortion, anti-life or pro-child murder.

"Pro-Choice"

Is not true you oppose the woman having any choice in this matter?

Well should my mom be given the choice to kill me? It's just I value someone elses life more then the womens choice.

You've been able to use pro choice as a misrepresentation for allow ing murder. Good job

[Miletos]

Is not true you oppose the woman having any choice in this matter?

Well should my mom be given the choice to kill me? It's just I value someone elses life more then the womens choice.

Are you both:
a) a foetus (or at a lesser developmental stage, like an embryo)
b) located in your mother's uterus at this moment in time?

If the answer to both those questions is "Yes!", then yes. If not, no.

[Liberusy]

Well should my mom be given the choice to kill me? It's just I value someone elses life more then the womens choice.

Should you be allowed to literally live inside your mother without her permission?

Well I need to do so at the beginning of my life to survive.
Besides she consented when she decided to have unprotected sex.

[Tekeristan]

Should you be allowed to literally live inside your mother without her permission?

Well I need to do so at the beginning of my life to survive.
Besides she consented when she decided to have unprotected sex.

That doesn't always happen.
Condoms and other methods of birth control can fail.
People get drunk as well, and they aren't themselves when they're drunk.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

Should you be allowed to literally live inside your mother without her permission?

Well I need to do so at the beginning of my life to survive.
Besides she consented when she decided to have unprotected sex.

No one consents to have a baby with unprotected sex unless they say so.

[Liberusy]

Well I need to do so at the beginning of my life to survive.
Besides she consented when she decided to have unprotected sex.

That doesn't always happen.
Condoms and other methods of birth control can fail.
People get drunk as well, and they aren't themselves when they're drunk.

Don't drink and don't have sex. Before you bring up rape, I will let you know I do believe in exceptions.

[Miletos]

That doesn't always happen.
Condoms and other methods of birth control can fail.
People get drunk as well, and they aren't themselves when they're drunk.

Don't drink and don't have sex. Before you bring up rape, I will let you know I do believe in exceptions.

But why do you believe in exceptions? Surely the foetus is always worth the same, no matter what, and so that being the case it's always equally wrong to abort?

[Kelinfort]

Is not true you oppose the woman having any choice in this matter?

Well should my mom be given the choice to kill me? It's just I value someone elses life more then the womens choice.

Would you really want to be the child to a person who didn't want you?